The Next Exciting Temple Location?

[RevTestament]

On 4/7/2020 at 10:44 AM, The Nehor said:

Or they went bankrupt and we picked the land up cheap.

You wouldn't rather them see the truth, be converted and saved in the truth? We don't even have to "pick up" the land that way. They will just bring it with them at no charge...  

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

You wouldn't rather them see the truth, be converted and saved in the truth? We don't even have to "pick up" the land that way. They will just bring it with them at no charge...  

I would like a lot of things to happen that I do not expect to happen. I like the idea that the spiritual seed of Abraham (Islam and Judaism) will be united at the battle of Armageddon against foreign aggressors but I doubt that is how it will play out. I want the Gentiles to repent en masse to avert the fate laid out for them in Book of Mormon prophecy but I doubt it will happen.

[Stargazer]

On 4/7/2020 at 5:25 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Israeli law would not allow it.  And that's not what Orson Hyde said, on instructions from Joseph Smith:  It is to be a specifically Jewish temple.  There is little doubt that the Dome of the Rock and Al Aksa Mosque will be razed by the Jews at some point.  Currently it is illegal to do so, but the Israelis have been steadily moving into more strict religious observance over the years, and the ultra-Orthodox have been gaining power.  Part of that is their high birthrate.  Eventually, the Knesset will pass a law permitting removal of religious rights of Muslims on the Temple Mount.  That will be the result of, or the cause of a major crisis, and it is hard to see the actual circumstances from our current static vantage point.  But it will take place.  The Jews have already been outfitting and training their priests.

 

On 4/7/2020 at 5:36 PM, The Nehor said:

Or the Dome of the Rock could just fall down. They have not been maintaining it very well.

In a talk Cleon Skousen gave many years ago he described a visit to Israel during which he heard discussed the little matter of the Dome of the Rock being where the Temple is supposed to stand. Talking about the question of rebuilding the Temple on the Mount where the Muslim holy buildings now stand, one rabbi simply shrugged and said "That's God's problem." Or in other words, they weren't about to do anything about it, so God Himself would have to clear off the Mount.

Of course, they'd have to push the wreckage away to build the Temple. And that would no doubt trigger the war (if it were not already being waged) leading up to the Savior's foot touching down on the Mount of Olives.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

On 4/7/2020 at 6:06 PM, rongo said:

Church is too weak in both of these places (Poland and Czech/Slovak missions were my parents last two).

Wow, yeah. I was planning to spend a week in Poland this coming July, and looked for LDS congregations there. Wow, darned few.  

 

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I would like a lot of things to happen that I do not expect to happen. I like the idea that the spiritual seed of Abraham (Islam and Judaism) will be united at the battle of Armageddon against foreign aggressors but I doubt that is how it will play out.

Nope. Because, it will begin far before the battle of Armageddon. Many will give their lives to convince Islam of its errors. See Isaiah 60.

Quote

I want the Gentiles to repent en masse to avert the fate laid out for them in Book of Mormon prophecy but I doubt it will happen.

Do you not understand 3 Nephi 20-21? Or D & C 113 and many passages of Isaiah?

 

[The Nehor]

56 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Nope. Because, it will begin far before the battle of Armageddon. Many will give their lives to convince Islam of its errors. See Isaiah 60.

Not seeing a connection there.

57 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Do you not understand 3 Nephi 20-21? Or D & C 113 and many passages of Isaiah?

I do understand them. Some of the Gentiles will repent and be numbered with Israel. I expect most not to be. Since I am a Gentile in those chapters I hope to be one of those that repents.

[Lemuel]

On 4/9/2020 at 8:34 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

 

 

So ...

You think that President Russell M. Nelson and/or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is going to go waaaay out on a limb and announce that a Temple is going to be constructed somewhere even when the only things that have happened are: (1) encouraging discussions with appropriate officials and/or (2) an agreement in principle?  I don't.  To me, that would be the equivalent of saying, "Oh, yes.  Actually, formal missionary work is happening in [Country X, where, officially, such activity is forbidden].  We just don't talk about it." 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't go in through the back door (unless you consider the "back door" to be, "OK, we'll let your humanitarian 'missionaries' come in, but they cannot proselyte.  If anybody asks, they can talk about your church and what it does, but unless that happens, they cannot say anything about those subjects."  But, still, apart from individual members or missionaries going "off of the reservation," the Church of Jesus Christ honors those agreements.)

Off hand, I can think of only two temple announcements that have been withdrawn:  Harrison, New York, and another in the South Pacific, the name of which is escaping me at the moment.

 

I'm aware of the 1982 First Presidency letter that keeps us from going in the back door, at least officially, but even so, I'm skeptical that Russia will let us build a temple, hence why we don't have a site or even a city yet.  I hope things get better for us there.

[Kenngo1969]

49 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

I'm aware of the 1982 First Presidency letter that keeps us from going in the back door, at least officially, but even so, I'm skeptical that Russia will let us build a temple, hence why we don't have a site or even a city yet.  I hope things get better for us there.

It's possible that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints got approval from someone higher than the local level to build a temple, it's simply a matter of selecting a site and persuading local officials that we'll be good neighbors.  Do you posit that, somehow, persuading officials who are on than the local level would be more difficult than persuading those who are higher than the local level?  

Edited April 10, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Lemuel said:

............................... I'm skeptical that Russia will let us build a temple, hence why we don't have a site or even a city yet.  I hope things get better for us there.

Why would Putin not allow us to build a temple there within the next 5 years?  He would probably see it to his advantage.  He has been consolidating power recently, making it possible for him to rule continuously.

[rongo]

18 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Why would Putin not allow us to build a temple there within the next 5 years?  He would probably see it to his advantage.  He has been consolidating power recently, making it possible for him to rule continuously.

Why didn't he intervene in the very public international news story, then, where the two missionaries were detained for weeks before being deported for holding a game night at the Church (one of the few missionary activities they are ostensibly allowed to do in Russia)? Remember the news camera crew accompanying the police for the arrest? 

I see absolutely no evidence that Putin sees anything to do with the Church to his advantage. At best, it is in insignificant, non-influential American entity in his country. But, no one thinks that this "at best" scenario is anything close to what he really thinks.

I think building a temple in Russia would be insane. Our missionaries can't even talk to people in a normal way there, and even when they follow the government's rules, they sometimes get arrested and deported. Why would anyone think a) that the zoning and building process wouldn't be plagued by Russia-esque problems, and b) that there wouldn't be headaches and problems down the road (like, property seizure)?

ETA: I think many Russian politicians could take or leave the Church, which would be fine enough if it stated there (the default setting for most of the world). But, the Russian Orthodox Church's influence is immense, and they put tremendous pressure on the Russian government at all levels against the Church. This is different even from, say, Rome, the seat of the Roman Catholic Church (which had no problem with the Rome temple), by degrees of magnitude. My nephew is a branch president in Montenegro (with senior couples being sent home), Serbian speaking. They can't have the name of the Church on anything, including signage, because Orthodox Church-instigated vandalism is ensured. I think a temple in Russia would be under similar circumstances, except you have the much more volatile and unpredictable authoritarian Putin there. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by rongo

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Why would Putin not allow us to build a temple there within the next 5 years?  He would probably see it to his advantage.  He has been consolidating power recently, making it possible for him to rule continuously.

I don’t know about the current state of feeling, but in the 90s including when we were there in 95, there was tremendous antiAmerican feeling, often promoted by the government.  This got translated to anti-Mormon attitudes with elders being followed and harassed and even beaten at one time while we were there. The branches were kicked out of where they were meeting and iirc, the mission home was having to find a new space as well. Shortly after we left, there was a call to ban the Church though pretty quickly dismissed.  
 

Recently the Church had to change missionaries to volunteers and a couple of these were arrested.  I heard quite a few stories of elders having to go off grid for a bit.

I don’t see any benefit to Putin to back the Church myself. It too easily gets pushed into a villain role in Russia from what I see.  And is not known for playing along with corrupt officials. 
 

Feelings towards Americans and by extension the Church seem to be very much a roller coaster in Russia. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Do you posit that, somehow, persuading officials who are on than the local level would be more difficult than persuading those who are higher than the local level?  

Very well could be given the way the government is set up there. 

[Lemuel]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

It's possible that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints got approval from someone higher than the local level to build a temple, it's simply a matter of selecting a site and persuading local officials that we'll be good neighbors.  Do you posit that, somehow, persuading officials who are on than the local level would be more difficult than persuading those who are higher than the local level?  

It's possible, but we haven't even named a city for the Russia temple yet.  I hope it happens soon.

[Lemuel]

36 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Why would Putin not allow us to build a temple there within the next 5 years?  He would probably see it to his advantage.  He has been consolidating power recently, making it possible for him to rule continuously.

I honestly don't know why Putin wouldn't.  I don't understand why Russia won't let us proselyte there either.  We're (mostly) harmless.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

We're (mostly) harmless.

Favourite targets for bullies.

[Robert F. Smith]

44 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

I honestly don't know why Putin wouldn't.  I don't understand why Russia won't let us proselyte there either.  We're (mostly) harmless.

The Russian Orthodox Church doesn't like it, and they probably complain a lot about us and the JWs.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Why didn't he intervene in the very public international news story, then, where the two missionaries were detained for weeks before being deported for holding a game night at the Church (one of the few missionary activities they are ostensibly allowed to do in Russia)? Remember the news camera crew accompanying the police for the arrest? 

I see absolutely no evidence that Putin sees anything to do with the Church to his advantage. At best, it is in insignificant, non-influential American entity in his country. But, no one thinks that this "at best" scenario is anything close to what he really thinks.

I think building a temple in Russia would be insane. Our missionaries can't even talk to people in a normal way there, and even when they follow the government's rules, they sometimes get arrested and deported. Why would anyone think a) that the zoning and building process wouldn't be plagued by Russia-esque problems, and b) that there wouldn't be headaches and problems down the road (like, property seizure)?

ETA: I think many Russian politicians could take or leave the Church, which would be fine enough if it stated there (the default setting for most of the world). But, the Russian Orthodox Church's influence is immense, and they put tremendous pressure on the Russian government at all levels against the Church. This is different even from, say, Rome, the seat of the Roman Catholic Church (which had no problem with the Rome temple), by degrees of magnitude. My nephew is a branch president in Montenegro (with senior couples being sent home), Serbian speaking. They can't have the name of the Church on anything, including signage, because Orthodox Church-instigated vandalism is ensured. I think a temple in Russia would be under similar circumstances, except you have the much more volatile and unpredictable authoritarian Putin there. 

Putin calls the tune there, and once he finishes consolidating his power, he may see it in his interest to cultivate a relationship with a very dynamic and growing international church -- as long as we agree not to proselyte, but instead send work missionaries.  Then a temple in St Petersburg might be a nice fit.  There will be no vandalism, if Putin says he doesn't want it.  Russia is actually a relatively poor country, and could use our help in processing and digitizing Russian records.  More than anything else, Putin wants to modernize in order to fully compete with the West.  He is following China's lead.

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, rongo said:

I think building a temple in Russia would be insane.

I'm glad you're not in charge of making such decisions!

[Kenngo1969]

Are there any parallels between this discussion and the discussion that preceded the construction of a Temple in what was then the GDR, aka East Germany?   

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not seeing a connection there.

6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring ^agold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the Lord.

7 All the flocks of ^aKedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with ^bacceptance on mine ^caltar, and I will glorify the house of my ^dglory.

[rongo]

10 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Are there any parallels between this discussion and the discussion that preceded the construction of a Temple in what was then the GDR, aka East Germany?   

Well, there might be if the DDR had arrested and deported people. Or if Putin encouraged the Church to build a temple there. Or if Eastern Orthodox churches were fomenting individual and governmental opposition to the Church. Maybe then the situations could be considered remotely similar.

I spent six months of my mission in the former DDR, six years nach der Wende. We were the first missionaries to have a phone in our apartment, and were largely cut off and isolated from the rest of the mission. The outgoing branch president had been in since the Berlin Wall went up (when he was released as a missionary and asked to stay, foregoing job offers from companions in the U.S.). The Stasi and the government left the Church alone (as in, didn't harass it) because they perceived that the Church was not a threat to the regime in any way. That branch president, Jürgen Pawelke, actually took the initiative to invite Stasi reps to church meetings, which they did a couple of times before deciding there was nothing there. 

Compare that with the police bringing a TV news crew to a branch game night in Russia and arresting, detaining for two weeks, and deporting missionaries for doing one of the only thing that our "volunteers" were ostensibly allowed to do. 

No, I don't think there are any parallels at all, to be honest. 

[rongo]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm glad you're not in charge of making such decisions!

Well, there might not be any functional difference if this announced Russia temple goes 20+ years before an actual site is announced, or ground broken. If that is the case (as it is with some current announced temples), then what was the point of announcing it? To get some oohs and aahs in Conference? 

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, rongo said:

if Eastern Orthodox churches were fomenting individual and governmental opposition to the Church.

This one, at least the Russian Orthodox...don't know about others, has occurred in the past; I would be surprised if it was not happening now as well.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, rongo said:

Well, there might not be any functional difference if this announced Russia temple goes 20+ years before an actual site is announced, or ground broken. If that is the case (as it is with some current announced temples), then what was the point of announcing it? To get some oohs and aahs in Conference? 

To show the Russian government we were serious and highly committed perhaps.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

On 4/11/2020 at 7:26 AM, rongo said:

... No, I don't think there are any parallels [between the former GDR/East Germany and present-day Russia] at all, to be honest. 

Okay.   

Edited April 13, 2020 by Kenngo1969