Apparently, Office Couples Exempted From the Senior Couples Being Sent Home

[rongo]

My parents got home Tuesday night, literally two days before a Church communique announced that all senior couples would be sent home. They ran the office of the Czech/Slovak Mission (legal things, landlords, transfer logistics, arrivals/departures, finances, etc.), and they did the same in the Warsaw Poland Mission previously. I was trying to envision what impact that would have on missions. In their case, the new office couple wasn't set to arrive until May (I'm sure that's off, now), so two elders had been trained for months to take over that monumental task. 

I learned that the office couple in the Norway Oslo Mission is staying, and that the area presidency had authorized missions to keep one couple. Whew! But, the disruption to the missions --- particularly where they were serving as branch presidents, etc., is daunting. Especially abruptly like it was. 

I also worry that this will have a depressed ripple effect on **future** senior couples for quite some time, especially those who were thinking about maybe serving a mission. Not to mention those in the pipeline right now who are now on hold. It seems to me that it will take years to get couple numbers back up to where it was, and of course you have the training, visas, etc. 

I think it would have been better to leave most of them where they were, instead of flying hundreds or thousands of "at risk" people all over the place (where they were exposed to recycled air from people from all over the world). It seems like the big "operation senior couple return" potentially puts them at risk more than simply staying put. 

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

My parents got home Tuesday night, literally two days before a Church communique announced that all senior couples would be sent home. They ran the office of the Czech/Slovak Mission (legal things, landlords, transfer logistics, arrivals/departures, finances, etc.), and they did the same in the Warsaw Poland Mission previously. I was trying to envision what impact that would have on missions. In their case, the new office couple wasn't set to arrive until May (I'm sure that's off, now), so two elders had been trained for months to take over that monumental task. 

I learned that the office couple in the Norway Oslo Mission is staying, and that the area presidency had authorized missions to keep one couple. Whew! But, the disruption to the missions --- particularly where they were serving as branch presidents, etc., is daunting. Especially abruptly like it was. 

I also worry that this will have a depressed ripple effect on **future** senior couples for quite some time, especially those who were thinking about maybe serving a mission. Not to mention those in the pipeline right now who are now on hold. It seems to me that it will take years to get couple numbers back up to where it was, and of course you have the training, visas, etc. 

I think it would have been better to leave most of them where they were, instead of flying hundreds or thousands of "at risk" people all over the place (where they were exposed to recycled air from people from all over the world). It seems like the big "operation senior couple return" potentially puts them at risk more than simply staying put. 

Young elders can run the office. That’s how it was when I served — and when my son served in the same mission 40 years later. 

[rongo]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Young elders can run the office. That’s how it was when I served — and when my son served in the same mission 40 years later. 

They can, but it takes them from missionary work in order to do office work. Good, better, best. Given the option, have the elders and sisters do missionary work, and an office couple run the office. 

They are also invaluable serving as branch presidents (and yes, missionaries can do that, too. But experienced older men are better than young elders, where possible). I'm trying to wrap my mind around the immediate (abruptly announced yesterday, effective immediately) pulling of senior couples out of the wards and branches. 

[mfbukowski]

Clearly there's more exposure to the disease in the mission field rather than sitting in an office all day.

[Ahab]

37 minutes ago, rongo said:

My parents got home Tuesday night, literally two days before a Church communique announced that all senior couples would be sent home. They ran the office of the Czech/Slovak Mission (legal things, landlords, transfer logistics, arrivals/departures, finances, etc.), and they did the same in the Warsaw Poland Mission previously. I was trying to envision what impact that would have on missions. In their case, the new office couple wasn't set to arrive until May (I'm sure that's off, now), so two elders had been trained for months to take over that monumental task. 

I learned that the office couple in the Norway Oslo Mission is staying, and that the area presidency had authorized missions to keep one couple. Whew! But, the disruption to the missions --- particularly where they were serving as branch presidents, etc., is daunting. Especially abruptly like it was. 

I also worry that this will have a depressed ripple effect on **future** senior couples for quite some time, especially those who were thinking about maybe serving a mission. Not to mention those in the pipeline right now who are now on hold. It seems to me that it will take years to get couple numbers back up to where it was, and of course you have the training, visas, etc. 

I think it would have been better to leave most of them where they were, instead of flying hundreds or thousands of "at risk" people all over the place (where they were exposed to recycled air from people from all over the world). It seems like the big "operation senior couple return" potentially puts them at risk more than simply staying put. 

That problem would be solved if everyone on the planes was given a pair of gloves and a mask with enough oxygen to get them to their destinations.  I wonder how long it's going to take people to think of that and actually get it done.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

My parents got home Tuesday night, literally two days before a Church communique announced that all senior couples would be sent home. They ran the office of the Czech/Slovak Mission (legal things, landlords, transfer logistics, arrivals/departures, finances, etc.), and they did the same in the Warsaw Poland Mission previously. I was trying to envision what impact that would have on missions. In their case, the new office couple wasn't set to arrive until May (I'm sure that's off, now), so two elders had been trained for months to take over that monumental task. 

I learned that the office couple in the Norway Oslo Mission is staying, and that the area presidency had authorized missions to keep one couple. Whew! But, the disruption to the missions --- particularly where they were serving as branch presidents, etc., is daunting. Especially abruptly like it was. 

I also worry that this will have a depressed ripple effect on **future** senior couples for quite some time, especially those who were thinking about maybe serving a mission. Not to mention those in the pipeline right now who are now on hold. It seems to me that it will take years to get couple numbers back up to where it was, and of course you have the training, visas, etc. 

I think it would have been better to leave most of them where they were, instead of flying hundreds or thousands of "at risk" people all over the place (where they were exposed to recycled air from people from all over the world). It seems like the big "operation senior couple return" potentially puts them at risk more than simply staying put. 

I agree, my sis/bro in law are staying in Australia and are thrilled, but they need senior missionaries super bad down there too. 

[Duncan]

I think you'd be getting a lot of local senior missionaries, i.e. why fly to Halifax when you can stay in Walnut Grove, CA? 

[sunstoned]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Young elders can run the office. That’s how it was when I served — and when my son served in the same mission 40 years later. 

My cousin and her husband (mission president) have just returned from their mission and they said that young elders ran the mission office.  There were no senior couples at the mission home.

[cacheman]

I just texted my Mom, and she hasn't heard anything about senior couples going home.  My parents are Missionaries at a historical site.  I talked to them the other day, and she mentioned that they get thousands of visitors.  She specifically mentioned that they had visitors from Korea and Italy last week.  She is not concerned about the virus despite being 70+.  I am a little concerned.  Is there an official announcement about this?

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, rongo said:

They can, but it takes them from missionary work in order to do office work. Good, better, best. Given the option, have the elders and sisters do missionary work, and an office couple run the office. 

They are also invaluable serving as branch presidents (and yes, missionaries can do that, too. But experienced older men are better than young elders, where possible). I'm trying to wrap my mind around the immediate (abruptly announced yesterday, effective immediately) pulling of senior couples out of the wards and branches. 

When I served in the office, we proselytized in the evenings. We did our office work in daylight hours, the least productive time for missionary work. 

[rongo]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

My cousin and her husband (mission president) have just returned from their mission and they said that young elders ran the mission office.  There were no senior couples at the mission home.

Missions do this if/when they have to. Czech/Slovak will have two elders (my parents trained them and got the finances transferred over to them at the bank) until May (or later, if new couples aren't called soon). Missions only get senior couples when they are able to get them, and some missions/assignments are more popular than others. 

2 hours ago, cacheman said:

I just texted my Mom, and she hasn't heard anything about senior couples going home.  My parents are Missionaries at a historical site.  I talked to them the other day, and she mentioned that they get thousands of visitors.  She specifically mentioned that they had visitors from Korea and Italy last week.  She is not concerned about the virus despite being 70+.  I am a little concerned.  Is there an official announcement about this?

Sorry. Europe only (which is odd, because other than Italy, Europe is pretty unscathed by Corona). 

https://ksltv.com/432988/senior-missionaries-others-with-chronic-conditions-in-europe-to-be-sent-home/

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

When I served in the office, we proselytized in the evenings. We did our office work in daylight hours, the least productive time for missionary work. 

Officially, yes, but even the office elders' evening proselytizing hours are often . . . curtailed. And, daylight hours are plenty productive. A lot of my finding, teaching, and being seen by and talking to people was during daylight hours. Evenings can be hard in Germany because of the concept of Feierabend (home from work, and don't want to be bothered).

[The Nehor]

On 3/13/2020 at 2:11 PM, Ahab said:

That problem would be solved if everyone on the planes was given a pair of gloves and a mask with enough oxygen to get them to their destinations.  I wonder how long it's going to take people to think of that and actually get it done.

You want to put enough oxygen tanks to provide independent air supplies to everyone on a plane? The main danger is exhaled air so you would have to pipe that out and replace it. If you are thinking of the emergency masks those only last about 15 minutes.

This solution is completely impractical.

[The Nehor]

On 3/13/2020 at 7:17 PM, rongo said:

Missions do this if/when they have to. Czech/Slovak will have two elders (my parents trained them and got the finances transferred over to them at the bank) until May (or later, if new couples aren't called soon). Missions only get senior couples when they are able to get them, and some missions/assignments are more popular than others. 

Sorry. Europe only (which is odd, because other than Italy, Europe is pretty unscathed by Corona). 

https://ksltv.com/432988/senior-missionaries-others-with-chronic-conditions-in-europe-to-be-sent-home/

Europe is just a couple of weeks behind Italy.

[cacheman]

On 3/13/2020 at 7:17 PM, rongo said:

Sorry. Europe only (which is odd, because other than Italy, Europe is pretty unscathed by Corona). 

https://ksltv.com/432988/senior-missionaries-others-with-chronic-conditions-in-europe-to-be-sent-home/

FYI - Apparently,  the historic site where my parents are serving is closing to the public as of today.  The couple missionaries will stay and work on site,  but won't be exposed to visitors.  

[Tacenda]

On 3/13/2020 at 1:01 PM, rongo said:

They can, but it takes them from missionary work in order to do office work. Good, better, best. Given the option, have the elders and sisters do missionary work, and an office couple run the office. 

They are also invaluable serving as branch presidents (and yes, missionaries can do that, too. But experienced older men are better than young elders, where possible). I'm trying to wrap my mind around the immediate (abruptly announced yesterday, effective immediately) pulling of senior couples out of the wards and branches. 

The church should also pay for their missions, IMHO. 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

The church should also pay for their missions, IMHO. 

Why?

[Tacenda]

57 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Why?

Because a lot of office work? Or ranches that charge for hunting? Or youth campsites where they are doing more backbreaking work? The church shouldn't be charging the large amounts, unlike the non senior missionaries. It should be a set amount too. Seniors out there are giving up a lot, even houses and retirement in some cases, I've read the stories. 

[Ahab]

On 3/15/2020 at 12:07 PM, The Nehor said:

You want to put enough oxygen tanks to provide independent air supplies to everyone on a plane? The main danger is exhaled air so you would have to pipe that out and replace it. If you are thinking of the emergency masks those only last about 15 minutes.

This solution is completely impractical.

We have sent men to the moon and kept them alive in space for longer than most people spend on a plane getting to their destination.  I find your lack of faith disturbing, but only a little bit.

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, Ahab said:

We have sent men to the moon and kept them alive in space for longer than most people spend on a plane getting to their destination.  I find your lack of faith disturbing, but only a little bit.

We could do it if we allocated the resources. All we need is the modern equivalent of the NASA budget in the 60s to go to the airline companies and scale it up so every plane gets multiple space shuttle budgets worth of stuff to put in private oxygen tanks.

We send men to the moon but may not be able to now:

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We could do it if we allocated the resources.

Thank you.  That's all I was after.  I just wanted to see someone else admit that.  Thank you

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

All we need is the modern equivalent of the NASA budget in the 60s to go to the airline companies and scale it up so every plane gets multiple space shuttle budgets worth of stuff to put in private oxygen tanks.

Uh, that level of overkill is really not necessary. If the current supply of oxygen would last 15 minutes for everybody then we would only need 4x that amount for everybody to have enough for an hour, or about 24x the current amount to last for 6 hours which is enough to get a plane full of people across the country.  So just have the passengers pay a little extra for their oxygen and store the larger main tank in the cargo section.  Completely doable and not very expensive unless the airlines wanted to make a big profit on providing the service.

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We send men to the moon but may not be able to now:

I was talking about getting a plane full of people from any airport on this planet to any other airport on this planet.  No need to reinvent the wheel here just to put more oxygen on the airplanes.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Thank you.  That's all I was after.  I just wanted to see someone else admit that.  Thank you

We could also have everyone live in environmental suits 24/7 if we really wanted to. That was not a agreement with you.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Uh, that level of overkill is really not necessary. If the current supply of oxygen would last 15 minutes for everybody then we would only need 4x that amount for everybody to have enough for an hour, or about 24x the current amount to last for 6 hours which is enough to get a plane full of people across the country.  So just have the passengers pay a little extra for their oxygen and store the larger main tank in the cargo section.  Completely doable and not very expensive unless the airlines wanted to make a big profit on providing the service.

The airlines are going bankrupt and you want to do a fleet wide refit with air tanks increasing fuel costs? Not reasonable and not safe. Even those overhead masks do not use oxygen stored in the plane.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I was talking about getting a plane full of people from any airport on this planet to any other airport on this planet.  No need to reinvent the wheel here just to put more oxygen on the airplanes.

You want a separate oxygen system for every person on a plane.

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We could also have everyone live in environmental suits 24/7 if we really wanted to. That was not a agreement with you.

Just saying what's possible.  What we could do to get those planes flying with people buying tickets to go places on those planes.

Quote

The airlines are going bankrupt and you want to do a fleet wide refit with air tanks increasing fuel costs? Not reasonable and not safe. Even those overhead masks do not use oxygen stored in the plane.

Yes, making those planes usable again rather than just sitting parked at airports not going anywhere.  Otherwise, what, we just wait for this Corona thing to completely go away? Assuming it will at some point, with no other virus problem coming after this?

Quote

You want a separate oxygen system for every person on a plane.

Not necessary as long as the oxygen to a passenger doesn't get recycled back into the main oxygen tank or tanks.  Separate tanks might be better though if it was better to put tanks under the floor or in the ceiling rather than in the cargo area.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Ahab

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

Just saying what's possible.  What we could do to get those planes flying with people buying tickets to go places on those planes.

We do not want people to go places right now.

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

Yes, making those planes usable again rather than just sitting parked at airports not going anywhere.  Otherwise, what, we just wait for this Corona thing to completely go away? Assuming it will at some point, with no other virus problem coming after this?

Who is paying for these refits? Who is going to install them? Won't these installations involve large numbers of people having to congregate together and provide more opportunities for virus transmission?

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Not necessary as long as the oxygen to a passenger doesn't get recycled back into the main oxygen tank or tanks.  Separate tanks might be better though if it was better to put tanks under the floor rather than in the cargo area.

You want compressed oxygen tanks, one of the most dangerous things to travel with on airplanes? You will be turned away if you try to carry compressed air on a plane. Why? Because they have a tendency to go Kaboom! Also imagine a leak over-oxygenating the cabin. All kinds of things become explosive for added fun times.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We do not want people to go places right now.

But someday we will, I suppose.

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Who is paying for these refits? Who is going to install them?

Airline passengers ultimately pay for everything associated with the cost of their flight, plus a tidy profit for the airlines.  On new planes the manufacturers could install the oxygen tanks and airline employees could probably install them on their older planes.

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Won't these installations involve large numbers of people having to congregate together and provide more opportunities for virus transmission?

Not necessarily.  Think of a plumber installing new tanks and lines in a home or building for natural gas, except that these plumbers would be installing oxygen tanks and lines.

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You want compressed oxygen tanks, one of the most dangerous things to travel with on airplanes?

Yes.  We can do it, safely.  We have the technology and expertise.

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You will be turned away if you try to carry compressed air on a plane. Why? Because they have a tendency to go Kaboom! Also imagine a leak over-oxygenating the cabin. All kinds of things become explosive for added fun times.

You could also scare people away from adding natural gas or propane tanks and lines to a home or building, if that's what you wanted to do.  There is a safe way to do these things though and you need not use fear tactics to try to dissuade people from these ideas.