Ahab Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Navidad said: Orson Whitney was a great writer and one of my favorite apostles. I have his entire four volume history of Utah in my library. What a cherished resource! Are you aware of the two times that Dwight L Moody the great Evangelical evangelist also spoke in the tabernacle? It is also a great story too. Richard E Turley Jr once told me all about it and sent me the citations. Did you hear a "whoosh" sound over your head when you read that? Maybe it would help if you read it again???
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Oaks: But I’ve never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Alma the Younger was out persecuting the Saints and was therefore very unworthy to have an angel sent to him to answer any questions. The angel was sent to straighten him out because of the prayers of the righteous. The angel came and knocked a testimony into him...one that stuck unlike what happened with Laman and Lemuel. What Pres Oaks is saying is none of the 12 had a visitation like Alma that gave them an instant testimony of truth. Instead they had to work at it and it came over time with the 12....as seems relatively obvious if you read their life stories. PS: there are angels coming and going throughout the scriptures, not just "a few". However there are just a few instant conversion stories, Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah and Paul off the top of my head. God visiting prophets to give revelation for the Church....hopefully they are way past conversion time when that happens. Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm 2
Ahab Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, pogi said: Neither do we dare to presume to know who will be blessed with eternity with the Father and Son. Our Lord said we can judge based on the works of other people, but since we don't know what people will do in the future we can't judge what someone may do later which could change their current situation. For example, as a general rule, we know that people won't be blessed with celestial glory unless they are baptized by a member of the Church who is authorized to baptize. Someone who isn't baptized now might be baptized later though so we can't judge their eternal destiny now because we don't know if they will choose to be baptized later.
Navidad Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Did you hear a "whoosh" sound over your head when you read that? Maybe it would help if you read it again??? No, I don't think so. I replied as I thought best. 1
Sunslight Posted March 5, 2020 Author Posted March 5, 2020 4 hours ago, CV75 said: Salvation is also redemption from physical death alone, as referenced in scripture (Mosiah 15;23, Mormon 9:15). This is why the quote above says, "People may also be saved from individual spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by their faith in Him, by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel, and by serving Him." See also: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/true-to-the-faith/salvation?lang=eng Except that the new Handbook teaches salvation specifically in the context of Russell M. Nelson's talk. It is clarified that salvation means to be saved from both physical and spiritual death. It is why the new handbook couples ordinances, works, with salvation.
pogi Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Our Lord said we can judge based on the works of other people, but since we don't know what people will do in the future we can't judge what someone may do later which could change their current situation. For example, as a general rule, we know that people won't be blessed with celestial glory unless they are baptized by a member of the Church who is authorized to baptize. Someone who isn't baptized now might be baptized later though so we can't judge their eternal destiny now because we don't know if they will choose to be baptized later. Like I said, Neither do we dare to presume to know who will be blessed with eternity with the Father and Son.
mfbukowski Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Did you hear a "whoosh" sound over your head when you read that? Maybe it would help if you read it again??? Are you saying that the post went"over your head "? Certainly it did not go over the posters head.
pogi Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ahab said: You can think that if you want but that doesn't mean you are right to think that. It bothers me so much when you say stuff like this - as if the same was not true for you! Edited March 5, 2020 by pogi 1
CV75 Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 12 hours ago, Sunslight said: Except that the new Handbook teaches salvation specifically in the context of Russell M. Nelson's talk. It is clarified that salvation means to be saved from both physical and spiritual death. It is why the new handbook couples ordinances, works, with salvation. Of course, that kind of salvation... where "may" is still the operative word. And remember the limitations of a handbook (as valuable as it is), and ministering strictly by what a handbook says. Would you cite the bolded part from your post? Thank you.
Sunslight Posted March 5, 2020 Author Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, CV75 said: Of course, that kind of salvation... where "may" is still the operative word. And remember the limitations of a handbook (as valuable as it is), and ministering strictly by what a handbook says. Would you cite the bolded part from your post? Thank you. 1.2.1 Living the Gospel of Jesus Christ Living the gospel of Jesus Christ includes: Exercising faith in Christ, repenting daily, making covenants with God as we receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation, and enduring to the end by keeping those covenants (see 3.5.1). 1.3.2 Covenants and Ordinances In Heavenly Father’s plan, we make covenants as we receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation, such as baptism (see John 3:5; see also chapter 18). These covenants and ordinances are essential for us to become more like God and return to dwell in His presence (see Doctrine and Covenants 84:19–22). 2.1.3 ... They also help them prepare to make covenants as they receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation. 3.5.1 Members make covenants with God as they receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation. 3.5.2 Ordinances of salvation and exaltation are essential for eternal life. For more information, see 18.1. Living individuals receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation for themselves. 5.1.1.1. The stake president helps members increase their spiritual strength. He teaches them to pray, study the scriptures, and prepare to make covenants as they receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation. 18.1 Ordinances of Salvation and Exaltation The priesthood includes the authority to administer gospel ordinances that are necessary for salvation and exaltation. People make sacred covenants with God as they receive these ordinances. The ordinances of salvation and exaltation are listed below: The ordinances of salvation and exaltation are not performed for persons who have intellectual disabilities that make them not accountable and unable to make covenants with God. Which Leaders Hold Keys to Give Approval to Perform or Receive the Ordinances of Salvation and Exaltation? I think you should cite Scripture where salvation means something besides being saved from physical and spiritual death. Edited March 5, 2020 by Sunslight
Ahab Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, pogi said: It bothers me so much when you say stuff like this - as if the same was not true for you! It was not true for me. I am often accused of being arrogant when I know for a fact I am not. Like in that particular instance when I had an absolute assurance from God that I was not. I was just pointing out what should be an obvious fact to everybody, which is: Sometimes people think other people are being arrogant when they are mistaken about that. And they shouldn't be going around accusing other people of being arrogant, anyway, when they really can not know if that is the case. And yet sometimes people will continue to insist that someone else was being arrogant even when they can't know for a fact that they were and that other person tells them they are wrong to think that. Maybe what bothers you when I say I am not and you say I am is that you don't like the idea that you could possibly be wrong about that. I know myself better than you do and I am not arrogant when I point out something I know and do not have an arrogant attitude. Edited March 5, 2020 by Ahab
CV75 Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Sunslight said: 1.2.1 Living the Gospel of Jesus Christ Living the gospel of Jesus Christ includes: Exercising faith in Christ, repenting daily, making covenants with God as we receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation, and enduring to the end by keeping those covenants (see 3.5.1). 1.3.2 Covenants and Ordinances In Heavenly Father’s plan, we make covenants as we receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation, such as baptism (see John 3:5; see also chapter 18). These covenants and ordinances are essential for us to become more like God and return to dwell in His presence (see Doctrine and Covenants 84:19–22). 2.1.3 ... They also help them prepare to make covenants as they receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation. 3.5.1 Members make covenants with God as they receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation. 3.5.2 Ordinances of salvation and exaltation are essential for eternal life. For more information, see 18.1. Living individuals receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation for themselves. 5.1.1.1. The stake president helps members increase their spiritual strength. He teaches them to pray, study the scriptures, and prepare to make covenants as they receive the ordinances of salvation and exaltation. 18.1 Ordinances of Salvation and Exaltation The priesthood includes the authority to administer gospel ordinances that are necessary for salvation and exaltation. People make sacred covenants with God as they receive these ordinances. The ordinances of salvation and exaltation are listed below: The ordinances of salvation and exaltation are not performed for persons who have intellectual disabilities that make them not accountable and unable to make covenants with God. Which Leaders Hold Keys to Give Approval to Perform or Receive the Ordinances of Salvation and Exaltation? I think you should cite Scripture where salvation means something besides being saved from physical and spiritual death. I am only seeing in these quotes the ordinances required for spiritual salvation, not resurrection. We still have a physical salvation which is guaranteed and spiritual salvation which may be obtained, per the scripture references I already provided. We have salvation from physical death on one hand (resurrection), and salvation from both physical and spiritual death on the other: resurrection with a degree of glory that is in or outside of the presence of God, with the celestial kingdom being the presence of God and exaltation as the highest degree. Naturally the Handbook is going to pair resurrection and salvation, and pair these two with exaltation since the aim of the Church is exaltation. A resurrection alone doesn’t require the Church, but doesn't mean it doesn't qualify as salvation. Per the scriptures I provided. 1
Sunslight Posted March 5, 2020 Author Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, CV75 said: I am only seeing in these quotes the ordinances required for spiritual salvation, not resurrection. We still have a physical salvation which is guaranteed and spiritual salvation which may be obtained, per the scripture references I already provided. We have salvation from physical death on one hand (resurrection), and salvation from both physical and spiritual death on the other: resurrection with a degree of glory that is in or outside of the presence of God, with the celestial kingdom being the presence of God and exaltation as the highest degree. Naturally the Handbook is going to pair resurrection and salvation, and pair these two with exaltation since the aim of the Church is exaltation. A resurrection alone doesn’t require the Church, but doesn't mean it doesn't qualify as salvation. Per the scriptures I provided. I'm not sure what scriptures you are referencing for physical salvation only
CV75 Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Sunslight said: I'm not sure what scriptures you are referencing for physical salvation only Posted 23 hours ago
Sunslight Posted March 5, 2020 Author Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Posted 23 hours ago I read that. You posted 2 scriptures and I'm lost as to how you came up with your proof of salvation there. You are going to have to actually cite an actual Scripture and then show how you believe.
CV75 Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Sunslight said: I read that. You posted 2 scriptures and I'm lost as to how you came up with your proof of salvation there. You are going to have to actually cite an actual Scripture and then show how you believe. I'd say you are going to have to read them, consider what I've already said concerning them, and ask specific clarifying questions about them and what I said. Then you can understand how I believe. 1
Sunslight Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 1 hour ago, CV75 said: I'd say you are going to have to read them, consider what I've already said concerning them, and ask specific clarifying questions about them and what I said. Then you can understand how I believe. I read them but do not see where you are getting salvation as meaning resurrection only. It is up to you to show me.
CV75 Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 11 hours ago, Sunslight said: I read them but do not see where you are getting salvation as meaning resurrection only. It is up to you to show me. That is an extremely poor (unsuccessful) approach to learning. Please do as I suggested and you will succeed. I wish you well!
Calm Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 18 minutes ago, CV75 said: That is an extremely poor (unsuccessful) approach to learning. Please do as I suggested and you will succeed. I wish you well! This is not a school, but a place of discussion. Maybe he isn’t here to learn, but to explore ideas in different ways
Sunslight Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 17 minutes ago, CV75 said: That is an extremely poor (unsuccessful) approach to learning. Please do as I suggested and you will succeed. I wish you well! How is It extremely poor? You listed scriptures that don't prove your point. The new handbook reinforces the true doctrine that salvation exclusively means to be saved from physical and spiritual death and that it requires ordinances and covenants. I could list over a 100 scriptures from the Book of Mormon to back up this doctrine. Can you find even one that says otherwise?
CV75 Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Calm said: This is not a school, but a place of discussion. Maybe he isn’t here to learn, but to explore ideas in different ways That's true, and I find the same approach successful for discussion even if someone doesn't want to learn another point of view. Edited March 6, 2020 by CV75
CV75 Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 47 minutes ago, Sunslight said: How is It extremely poor? You listed scriptures that don't prove your point. The new handbook reinforces the true doctrine that salvation exclusively means to be saved from physical and spiritual death and that it requires ordinances and covenants. I could list over a 100 scriptures from the Book of Mormon to back up this doctrine. Can you find even one that says otherwise? Yes, they do prove my point, but all you have to do is say they don't. If I don't know your questions about the scriptures I listed and how they do or don't support my points (all of which has been posted already), I cannot prove anything to you in a way you might accept. I don't know what particulars you do not understand. Hence my recommendation on how best to address your desire to be "proven-to", which I take to be a form of learning but I suppose is also a form of discussion for discussion's sake.
Sunslight Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 18 minutes ago, CV75 said: Yes, they do prove my point, but all you have to do is say they don't. If I don't know your questions about the scriptures I listed and how they do or don't support my points (all of which has been posted already), I cannot prove anything to you in a way you might accept. I don't know what particulars you do not understand. Hence my recommendation on how best to address your desire to be "proven-to", which I take to be a form of learning but I suppose is also a form of discussion for discussion's sake. Let's startvin Mosiah 15 which you listed. In verse 11. 11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God. This is the salvation spoken of, this is the redemption Christ is speaking of in this instance. In verse 12 it is extrapolated further. 12 For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed? In verses 18-19 it speaks of Christ's people who he redeems, who gain salvation. It may be tempting to see this just as resurrection but later verses clarify what is actually meant. 18 And behold, I say unto you, this is not all. For O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that is the founder of peace, yea, even the Lord, who has redeemed his people; yea, him who has granted salvation unto his people; 19 For were it not for the redemption which he hath made for his people, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, I say unto you, were it not for this, all mankind must have perished. The important principle here to ponder is the phrase "his people". Who are "his people"? Refer back to the opening verse 1. 1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. 26 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection. 27 Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim.
CV75 Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sunslight said: Let's startvin Mosiah 15 which you listed. We have salvation from physical death: 20 But behold, the bands of death shall be broken, and the Son reigneth, and hath power over the dead; therefore, he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead. We also have salvation from spiritual death: 11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the aprophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the bkingdom of God. These benefit as follows: 21 And there cometh a resurrection, even a afirst resurrection; yea, even a resurrection of those that have been, and who are, and who shall be, even until the resurrection of Christ—for so shall he be called. 22 And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection. 23 They are raised to adwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has bbroken the bands of death. But we also have those who do not benefit, but remain in spiritual death after receiving salvation from physical death (in a later resurrection): 26 But behold, and afear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that brebel against him and cdie in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; dthese are they that have eno part in the first fresurrection. The ideal is to have both (He redeems His people), and the Church appropriately promotes such, but salvation also refers to physical and spiritual redemption separately, and the resurrection of the willfully rebellious, which the Church also teaches. Edited March 6, 2020 by CV75
Sunslight Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 16 minutes ago, CV75 said: We have salvation from physical death: 20 But behold, the bands of death shall be broken, and the Son reigneth, and hath power over the dead; therefore, he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead. We also have salvation from spiritual death: 11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the aprophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the bkingdom of God. These benefit as follows: 21 And there cometh a resurrection, even a afirst resurrection; yea, even a resurrection of those that have been, and who are, and who shall be, even until the resurrection of Christ—for so shall he be called. 22 And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection. 23 They are raised to adwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has bbroken the bands of death. But we also have those who do not benefit, but remain in spiritual death after receiving salvation from physical death (in a later resurrection): 26 But behold, and afear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that brebel against him and cdie in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; dthese are they that have eno part in the first fresurrection. The ideal is to have both (He redeems His people), and the Church appropriately promotes such, but salvation also refers to physical and spiritual redemption separately, and the resurrection of the willfully rebellious, which the Church also teaches. You haven't made the connection that resurrection = Salvation. The scriptures in Mosiah clearly point out that resurrection is only a part of salvation, not salvation itself. Salvation only comes to those who overcome both physical and spiritual death.
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