The Work of Salvation and Exaltation.

[CV75]

35 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

You haven't made the connection that resurrection = Salvation. The scriptures in Mosiah clearly point out that resurrection is only a part of salvation, not salvation itself. Salvation only comes to those who overcome both physical and spiritual death.

That's one way of putting it. I have also made the connection that resurrection is redemption and salvation in one sense (physical), and that resurrection and eternal life is redemption and salvation in another, fuller sense (physical and spiritual).

And yn yet another sense, all mankind is already saved both physically and spiritually by virtue of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by which He has the power to extend eternal life and exaltation to absolutely everyone (Mosiah 15:1-9)... But, since not everyone is willing to receive it and He won't force it upon them, not all will receive/realize it (according to the verses I provided).

Thus you're not providing proof that "Salvation only comes to those who overcome both physical and spiritual death." This is a false statement anyway. Verses 1-9 show that only Jesus overcomes both physical and spiritual death and extends these blessings to all the children of men, wicked and righteous. We do not overcome these things on our own.

[Ahab]

55 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

You haven't made the connection that resurrection = Salvation. The scriptures in Mosiah clearly point out that resurrection is only a part of salvation, not salvation itself. Salvation only comes to those who overcome both physical and spiritual death.

I can agree with that but that would mean I wouldn't regard resurrection unto only terrestrial or telestial glory as salvation, with resurrection unto celestial glory as the only type of salvation.  And that would also mean that spiritual death meant separation from our Father in heaven.

Those who are resurrected unto terrestrial glory will not be able to associate with our Father in heaven, but will be able to associate with our Savior, but not in his full glory.

Those who are resurrected unto telestial glory will also not be able to associate with our Father in heaven, but they will  be able to associate with the Holy Ghost, whoever that is.

I suppose it just depends on what we think the meaning of salvation is.

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

That's one way of putting it. I have also made the connection that resurrection is redemption and salvation in one sense (physical), and that resurrection and eternal life is redemption and salvation in another, fuller sense (physical and spiritual).

And yn yet another sense, all mankind is already saved both physically and spiritually by virtue of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by which He has the power to extend eternal life and exaltation to absolutely everyone (Mosiah 15:1-9)... But, since not everyone is willing to receive it and He won't force it upon them, not all will receive/realize it (according to the verses I provided).

Thus you're not providing proof that "Salvation only comes to those who overcome both physical and spiritual death." This is a false statement anyway. Verses 1-9 show that only Jesus overcomes both physical and spiritual death and extends these blessings to all the children of men, wicked and righteous. We do not overcome these things on our own.

I've heard this a lot in church. I don't particularly like the view because it makes a mashup of the scriptures. I think it has to do with our particular theology with the three glories. I'm just pleased to see the prophet focus on using the words correctly and seeing that spill over into new teachings like the Guide to the Scriptures (see "salvation") and the new General Handbook. Line upon line. We're getting closer to truth. 

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I can agree with that but that would mean I wouldn't regard resurrection unto only terrestrial or telestial glory as salvation, with resurrection unto celestial glory as the only type of salvation.  And that would also mean that spiritual death meant separation from our Father in heaven.

Those who are resurrected unto terrestrial glory will not be able to associate with our Father in heaven, but will be able to associate with our Savior, but not in his full glory.

Those who are resurrected unto telestial glory will also not be able to associate with our Father in heaven, but they will  be able to associate with the Holy Ghost, whoever that is.

I suppose it just depends on what we think the meaning of salvation is.

But, all the saved, regardless of glory, are saved from spiritual death which is salvation.

[CV75]

5 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

I've heard this a lot in church. I don't particularly like the view because it makes a mashup of the scriptures. I think it has to do with our particular theology with the three glories. I'm just pleased to see the prophet focus on using the words correctly and seeing that spill over into new teachings like the Guide to the Scriptures (see "salvation") and the new General Handbook. Line upon line. We're getting closer to truth. 

I see what I've been describing as an integration of the scripture teachings, ongoing revelation and the resultant unified theology. Of course it is helpful to use a consistent theme throughout the Handbook for handbook purposes, and to base a talk on a theme representative of the fulness of the Gospel, and in both cases to distill them into the most essential message (in this case, a working faith in Christ's Atonement which exalts families through temple ordinances).

In the scriptures, I see the Lord's promise of immortality (physical salvation) as a stepping stone for developing the faith to appreciate and anticipate spiritual life in mortality, and eventually the blessings of exaltation. In some cases, temporal salvation has to come even before that! As we integrate them, we enjoy a fuller, more a complete and perfect understanding.

Now I find the view, or rather the shorthand, misspoken view that "Salvation only comes to those who overcome both physical and spiritual death" to be incorrect and damaging. We need to tie everything to Christ, and when we do, we find we haven't a "mashup" but a "a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories," or an "integration."

Semantics are important!

 

[Ahab]

27 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

But, all the saved, regardless of glory, are saved from spiritual death which is salvation.

Okay, that's what I believe too.  Everyone is saved except for Perdition and those who follow him.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

I suppose it just depends on what we think the meaning of salvation is.

Bravo!

That is the whole problem of the thread.

[Tacenda]

36 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Bravo!

That is the whole problem of the thread.

Second and most important problem, is that Salvation doesn't mean living with God, in the church's beliefs.

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I see what I've been describing as an integration of the scripture teachings, ongoing revelation and the resultant unified theology. Of course it is helpful to use a consistent theme throughout the Handbook for handbook purposes, and to base a talk on a theme representative of the fulness of the Gospel, and in both cases to distill them into the most essential message (in this case, a working faith in Christ's Atonement which exalts families through temple ordinances).

In the scriptures, I see the Lord's promise of immortality (physical salvation) as a stepping stone for developing the faith to appreciate and anticipate spiritual life in mortality, and eventually the blessings of exaltation. In some cases, temporal salvation has to come even before that! As we integrate them, we enjoy a fuller, more a complete and perfect understanding.

Now I find the view, or rather the shorthand, misspoken view that "Salvation only comes to those who overcome both physical and spiritual death" to be incorrect and damaging. We need to tie everything to Christ, and when we do, we find we haven't a "mashup" but a "a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories," or an "integration."

Semantics are important!

 

Semantics are important. What we are witnessing firsthand is the interpretation of salvation coming in line with what the scriptures teach. That teaching is being saved from physical and spiritual death.

[Sunslight]

Salvation
        
        
            
                
                    
                        See also Atone, Atonement; Death, Physical; Death, Spiritual; Exaltation; Grace; Jesus Christ; Plan of Redemption; Redeem, Redeemed, Redemption
                    
                
            
            To be saved from both physical and spiritual death. All people will be saved from physical death by the grace of God, through the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.

 

[Ahab]

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Second and most important problem, is that Salvation doesn't mean living with God, in the church's beliefs.

Receiving celestial salvation/glory involves that.  But yes there are other degrees of salvation/glory that do not involve that.  Living with him is more about living like he does than just living in the same house as he does, though. 

Being able to "live with him" and be happy with him and his rules.  If others who were not willing to live by his rules tried to "live with him" they would most likely be miserable and want him to be less a stickler for details and want him to be more like them.

[mfbukowski]

55 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Second and most important problem, is that Salvation doesn't mean living with God, in the church's beliefs.

Sure it does.

People who are saved live with God, just not all of them. Yes the term is ambiguous. That's what I've been saying. For them salvation does mean living with God.

I'm just showing you that even your comment is ambiguous about it. What you said is incorrect. All who live with God are saved, but not all who are saved live with God a according to the LDS paradigm

Many many others are also saved but don't live with God, because the word has at least two different meanings.

It's just a word like all words. Have you have to Define your terms clearly. This term has never been defined clearly.

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Sunslight]

Salvation only has one meaning from Scripture. Im not sure where the belief came from exactly that it has different meanings. But that deviation has persisted for along time. That is why it is comforting to see the church begin to correct this ambiguity and define it correctly. This brings into line Christ's simple doctrine of Come, Follow Me. Only those who follow Christ reap salvation. This is what our scriptures teach and, thankfully, what our new General Handbook also teaches.

[Anakin7]

I love your statement "only those that follow Christ reap salvation". 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

He Died To Make Man Holy

Anakin7

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sure it does.

People who are saved live with God, just not all of them. Yes the term is ambiguous. That's what I've been saying. For them salvation does mean living with God.

I'm just showing you that even your comment is ambiguous about it. What you said is incorrect. All who live with God are saved, but not all who are saved live with God a according to the LDS paradigm

Many many others are also saved but don't live with God, because the word has at least two different meanings.

It's just a word like all words. Have you have to Define your terms clearly. This term has never been defined clearly.

 

My answer was just short of being complete, I left out the part where exaltation is where we'll live with God, according to LDS belief. So yes, salvation first and onto exaltation with temple ordinances and covenants made.

[CV75]

16 hours ago, Sunslight said:

Semantics are important. What we are witnessing firsthand is the interpretation of salvation coming in line with what the scriptures teach. That teaching is being saved from physical and spiritual death.

I think it more accurate to say that what we are seeing (I assume you are referring to the Handbook and President Nelson's talk) is an emphasis on this key aspect of salvation in the Handbook and a talk, which is indeed taught in the scriptures along with other aspects. It is the ideal we should be aiming for, and that is what the Handbook and the talk are supposed to emphasize.

I hope you can also see how "temporal salvation" is also scriptural and an aspect covered in the Handbook and President Nelson's recent talks. And how "salvation from physical death" is also scriptural and an aspect in Christ drawing all men after Him ("The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day [physical salvation], and ascended into heaven [spiritual salvation]; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”). I don't see a need for this particular concept to have guidance in the Handbook.

Edited March 7, 2020 by CV75

[Sunslight]

I thought about this and the nuts and bolts of it and it brought into my mind the plan of salvation. We are taught about this plan in the Book of Mormon. It goes by various names such as the plan of redemption, the plan of mercy, the plan of happiness and the plan of salvation. The whole purpose of the plan is about repentance, about gaining mercy, about being redeemed from our fallen condition. This is made possible according to obedience to laws and ordinances of the gospel. This is the plan of salvation. When we speak of gaining salvation according to this plan we aren't merely speaking of resurrection. In fact, we never associate the plan of happiness merely with resurrection. Even the sons of perdition will be resurrected. But they won't enjoy any happiness. They don't get to partake of the redemption, the salvation of their souls that is offered through Christ. They arent "saved". 

This is how to properly understand salvation. It is why resurrection alone is not salvation, it is not the plan of happiness alone. Resurrection is only part of what salvation is. Salvation is exactly synonymous with redemption. Redemption means to be saved or reclaimed from sin and it's effects. When people bring up salvation it's always in the context of being redeemed from physical and spiritual death. No one speaks merely of resurrection when salvation is brought up. The litmus test is to ask yourself-- Are the sons of perdition saved? Are they heirs of salvation? Are they redeemed from their spiritual fall?

It then is apparent that "salvation" refers specifically to those who are saved. To be saved requires ordinances and covenants. Ultimately, it's about being redeemed from our spiritual fall. This is the intent and purpose of the plan of salvation. We know that all, except the sons of perdition, will be redeemed from their spiritual death. We know this because only the sons of perdition will suffer the second death after resurrection and judgment.

Salvation requires ordinances. Ordinances are accompanied with covenants. Ordinances and covenants are associated directly with the temple. It's thus no wonder that the work we do for the dead is done for their salvation in the temple. 

The first fruits of salvation is repentance. Then comes baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost for a remission of sins. This is the very gate that opens for one to partake of salvation.

[Sunslight]

38 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think it more accurate to say that what we are seeing (I assume you are referring to the Handbook and President Nelson's talk) is an emphasis on this key aspect of salvation in the Handbook and a talk, which is indeed taught in the scriptures along with other aspects. It is the ideal we should be aiming for, and that is what the Handbook and the talk are supposed to emphasize.

I hope you can also see how "temporal salvation" is also scriptural and an aspect covered in the Handbook and President Nelson's recent talks. And how "salvation from physical death" is also scriptural and an aspect in Christ drawing all men after Him ("The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day [physical salvation], and ascended into heaven [spiritual salvation]; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”). I don't see a need for this particular concept to have guidance in the Handbook.

Read my last post.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Sunslight said:

I thought about this and the nuts and bolts of it and it brought into my mind the plan of salvation. We are taught about this plan in the Book of Mormon. It goes by various names such as the plan of redemption, the plan of mercy, the plan of happiness and the plan of salvation. The whole purpose of the plan is about repentance, about gaining mercy, about being redeemed from our fallen condition. This is made possible according to obedience to laws and ordinances of the gospel. This is the plan of salvation. When we speak of gaining salvation according to this plan we aren't merely speaking of resurrection. In fact, we never associate the plan of happiness merely with resurrection. Even the sons of perdition will be resurrected. But they won't enjoy any happiness. They don't get to partake of the redemption, the salvation of their souls that is offered through Christ. They arent "saved". 

This is how to properly understand salvation. It is why resurrection alone is not salvation, it is not the plan of happiness alone. Resurrection is only part of what salvation is. Salvation is exactly synonymous with redemption. Redemption means to be saved or reclaimed from sin and it's effects. When people bring up salvation it's always in the context of being redeemed from physical and spiritual death. No one speaks merely of resurrection when salvation is brought up. The litmus test is to ask yourself-- Are the sons of perdition saved? Are they heirs of salvation? Are they redeemed from their spiritual fall?

It then is apparent that "salvation" refers specifically to those who are saved. To be saved requires ordinances and covenants. Ultimately, it's about being redeemed from our spiritual fall. This is the intent and purpose of the plan of salvation. We know that all, except the sons of perdition, will be redeemed from their spiritual death. We know this because only the sons of perdition will suffer the second death after resurrection and judgment.

Salvation requires ordinances. Ordinances are accompanied with covenants. Ordinances and covenants are associated directly with the temple. It's thus no wonder that the work we do for the dead is done for their salvation in the temple. 

The first fruits of salvation is repentance. Then comes baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost for a remission of sins. This is the very gate that opens for one to partake of salvation.

Great post, thanks!

"Salvation" is not a line you step over. It's a journey of progression.

Edited March 7, 2020 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My answer was just short of being complete, I left out the part where exaltation is where we'll live with God, according to LDS belief. So yes, salvation first and onto exaltation with temple ordinances and covenants made.

Do you want to live with and in your parents house forever?

No, the Paradigm is that we will leave home and we'll have our own children to lead to salvation just like now.

Intellectually I think this is a great thing to believe. It is essentially worshipping the idea of family at the highest human level possible. 

What's greater belief could mankind believe except that we are all family?

 

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Sunslight said:

Read my last post.

Absolutely: when people bring up salvation in the context of being redeemed from physical and spiritual death, that is what they mean. When they bring up the resurrection and talk about the blessings of physical salvation, or bring up the Christlike help they received from humanitarian aid or self-reliance training and talk about the blessings of temporal salvation, that is what they mean. Hopefully we take it further and integrate it with their spiritual salvation (and it doesn't take a son of perdition to fall short in how far we can otherwise get). Perfection can be considered to be that full / fuller / fullest integration.

[Tacenda]

26 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Do you want to live with and in your parents house forever?

No, the Paradigm is that we will leave home and we'll have our own children to lead to salvation just like now.

Intellectually I think this is a great thing to believe. It is essentially worshipping the idea of family at the highest human level possible. 

What's greater belief could mankind believe except that we are all family?

 

No one knows for sure, not even you or the apostles/prophets, IMO. We can dream and hope I guess for our ideal afterlife. We don't seem to have an exact idea of what that afterlife will be. Is it that we have to create spirits for our own world? Or that we just exist with our family and our grand kids and their kids and their kids and their kids? Or our kids will go on to create their own world and their kids will create their own world and on and on. So that leaves our original father where? And us where? What does God do now, have empty nest syndrome? Or is God with his wife/wives and continually creating spirit children? So many questions. 

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Absolutely: when people bring up salvation in the context of being redeemed from physical and spiritual death, that is what they mean. When they bring up the resurrection and talk about the blessings of physical salvation, or bring up the Christlike help they received from humanitarian aid or self-reliance training and talk about the blessings of temporal salvation, that is what they mean. Hopefully we take it further and integrate it with their spiritual salvation (and it doesn't take a son of perdition to fall short in how far we can otherwise get). Perfection can be considered to be that full / fuller / fullest integration.

Yes. I agree with everything you say. To add though, in the scriptures, where it speaks of "salvation" it means both the physical and the spiritual.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

No one knows for sure, not even you or the apostles/prophets, IMO. We can dream and hope I guess for our ideal afterlife. We don't seem to have an exact idea of what that afterlife will be. Is it that we have to create spirits for our own world? Or that we just exist with our family and our grand kids and their kids and their kids and their kids? Or our kids will go on to create their own world and their kids will create their own world and on and on. So that leaves our original father where? And us where? What does God do now, have empty nest syndrome? Or is God with his wife/wives and continually creating spirit children? So many questions. 

Of course we don't "know".

We don't even know what "reality" is if you get down to it.  Physicists talk about that all the time!  Do you see quarks spinning around when you see your computer?  No, you see what your human mind and senses decide to show you.  Do you see reality when you look at the stars?  No, even the light that reaches your eyes for your brain to interpret is thousands or millions of years old, and doesn't "represent reality" one iota- just what your mind makes up.

The best we can do is come up with paradigms that work in the world for their purpose, and that is true of science as much as religion.

These are stories that might be "true" to the limits of our understanding--- but the question is picking the BEST paradigm that fits with what we need in our lives to have meaning and give us a place in the universe.

I can think of no better paradigm, intelectually than the LDS view of our purpose for eternity- the Plan of Happiness!

And then the Holy Ghost - or some intelligence I believe to be outside myself- confirms it with a wave of peace and feelings of love and warmth.

That's "all" we have about anything, and the best that mankind can invent.

To me that is the true belief in God being our Father who builds a house for us out of available materials, because HE too, like us, IS ONE of us, but infinitely far above our intelligence and abilities.

That is the best belief system I can conceive for humanity.   Got a better one for you?  Go follow it!   But for me, here I am to stay!   

 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Sunslight said:

Yes. I agree with everything you say. To add though, in the scriptures, where it speaks of "salvation" it means both the physical and the spiritual.

That is God's overall, ultimate intended message  of the scriptural works on the whole (with the most significant addition that it only comes through Christ), but where the scriptures speak of physical and spiritual death, and two distinct redemptions from these, not always. I showed how the passage in Mosiah 15 shows that, and Mormon 9:13 was the other reference I gave:

13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the ^apresence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the ^bresurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless ^csleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal ^dband of death, which death is a temporal death.

Where it says "this is wherein all men are redeemed," it means salvation from physical death.

Now it might be said that we are always living in the presence of God (we just don't see Him) and in this sense we are all spiritually saved as well, since we are not spirits eternally subject to the devil for all eternity. It can also be said that we are saved spiritually and in the presence of God in that the administrations and presence of the Holy Spirit, the Son, and the Father, and even including ministering angels from higher kingdoms by divine delegation, (as described in D&C 76), constitute "God."