The Work of Salvation and Exaltation.

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I understand the resurrection to be that ordinance, which is an outgrowth of birth and the Atonement of Jesus Christ (both of which might be considered ordinances of salvation in a non-Handbook sense).

But even resurrected people will go into perdition. What ordinance or lack of such separates the resurrected who go into perdition versus the resurrected who go into glory?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Sunslight said:

But even resurrected people will go into perdition. What ordinance or lack of such separates the resurrected who go into perdition versus the resurrected who go into glory?

The ordinance of Judgement, which no one will lack.

Edited March 10, 2020 by CV75

[Sunslight]

43 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The ordinance of Judgement, which no one will lack.

So, you believe what single thing then saves one from an eternal hell? I'm not understanding you. What must a person do?

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

So, you believe what single thing then saves one from an eternal hell? I'm not understanding you. What must a person do?

A desire to avoid doing anything else that will cause them to suffer for any sin they might commit after they are resurrected... would be my guess.

These are the people who did not repent of their sins and had to suffer in Hell to pay the price for their sins, themselves, you do realize, I hope.  They didn't repent, then they suffered because they didn't repent.

How do you think you would feel after suffering for your sins in Hell?  Anxious to go right back to doing what caused you to suffer?  Those would be Perdition and his followers, I think, who would rather just go back to sinning, as usual, as much as they could.

[Vanguard]

7 hours ago, Sunslight said:

At minimum, what ordinance is required to be saved from hell where Satan and his Angels go in eternity?

I don't believe it is about one single ordinance that separates those who are saved from hell as you describe and those who are not. I'm not sure if I'm understanding you though. Are you looking for the one variable that makes the difference? 

[Sunslight]

20 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I don't believe it is about one single ordinance that separates those who are saved from hell as you describe and those who are not. I'm not sure if I'm understanding you though. Are you looking for the one variable that makes the difference? 

I was trying to get CV75 to pinpoint at least one single saving ordinance or process, or thing that separates the saved from the unsaved.

[Sunslight]

32 minutes ago, Ahab said:

A desire to avoid doing anything else that will cause them to suffer for any sin they might commit after they are resurrected... would be my guess.

These are the people who did not repent of their sins and had to suffer in Hell to pay the price for their sins, themselves, you do realize, I hope.  They didn't repent, then they suffered because they didn't repent.

How do you think you would feel after suffering for your sins in Hell?  Anxious to go right back to doing what caused you to suffer?  Those would be Perdition and his followers, I think, who would rather just go back to sinning, as usual, as much as they could.

Do you think that this process of overcoming sin, in order to be saved, is accompanied with any ordinance/ ordinances?

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Sunslight said:

Do you think that this process of overcoming sin, in order to be saved, is accompanied with any ordinance/ ordinances?

Not in the case of those who receive only telestial glory.  I think it's possible that some of them could have received some or even all of the ordinances in their past, but for some reason they still fell away anyway and would not repent, which resulted in them suffering for their own sins and then receiving telestial glory because they would not repent when they could have.

[Sunslight]

Just now, Ahab said:

Not in the case of those who receive only telestial glory.  I think it's possible that some of them could have received some or even all of the ordinances in their past, but for some reason they still fell away anyway and would not repent, which resulted in them suffering for their own sins and then receiving telestial glory because they would not repent when they could have.

So, do you believe they are cleansed from their past sins?

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

So, do you believe they are cleansed from their past sins?

In a sense.  I'm thinking they'll have paid the price for their sins, much like people who go to prison on this planet serve time for the crimes they commit and then when that time is served they are let out of prison, hopefully not ever committing those same crimes again.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Ahab

[Sunslight]

Just now, Ahab said:

In a sense.  I'm thinking they'll have paid the price for their sins, much like people who go to prison on this planet serve time for the crimes they commit and then when that time is served they are let out of prison, hopefully not ever committing those same crimes again.

Do you think they repent and are forgiven?

[Ahab]

Just now, Sunslight said:

Do you think they repent and are forgiven?

I think they suffer for their own sins because they would not repent.  Forgiveness is another issue and I think we can forgive people for their trespasses against us whether or not they repent and whether or not they still need to pay a penalty for committing a sin.

[Sunslight]

5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think they suffer for their own sins because they would not repent.  Forgiveness is another issue and I think we can forgive people for their trespasses against us whether or not they repent and whether or not they still need to pay a penalty for committing a sin.

According to Scripture the unrepentant are not redeemed but are cast out. How can one reconcile?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Sunslight said:

So, you believe what single thing then saves one from an eternal hell? I'm not understanding you. What must a person do?

I would say his choice to receive some quantum of the light of Christ beyond that which is necessary to be resurrected and thus avoid Perdition.

Edited March 10, 2020 by CV75

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

According to Scripture the unrepentant are not redeemed but are cast out. How can one reconcile?

It is difficult to imagine, isn't it.  These people are told that if they do not repent they will suffer for their sins in Hell.  And still they do not repent.  So they suffer in Hell for their sins because they would not repent. 

How long do they suffer?  Until they pay the full penalty for their sins.  

What happens then, after they have paid the full penalty for their sins?

The way I see it, they are given a choice.  They can bow their knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ, determining from that point forward to serve him, as well as they can.  Or they can go with Lucifer into outer darkness.  Which do you think they would choose?

Edited March 10, 2020 by Ahab

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think they suffer for their own sins because they would not repent.  Forgiveness is another issue and I think we can forgive people for their trespasses against us whether or not they repent and whether or not they still need to pay a penalty for committing a sin.

I think the suffering is the actual Judgement, and then they simply accept what they are willing to receive because the suffering is more palatable than the discipleship ("where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."). This is a function of agency, will, willpower, power in agency, exercising all of these, and Christ's grace.

[Ahab]

27 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think the suffering is the actual Judgement, and then they simply accept what they are willing to receive because the suffering is more palatable than the discipleship ("where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."). This is a function of agency, will, willpower, power in agency, exercising all of these, and Christ's grace.

Maybe, to some extent.  I believe what we call our "final judgment" will come after we are resurrected, and that we are resurrected according to whether or not we are willing to repent, and when.  The righteous who do their best to follow our Lord and obey his commandments will be resurrected first, before anyone who will receive either Terrestrial or Telestial glory is resurrected, and they will receive Celestial glory because they were willing to follow our Lord and obey his commandments as well as they could when they found out what he commanded them to do.  They were told they needed to be baptized, so they were baptized.  And they were told they needed to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, so they did what it took to receive it.  And other things such as that.  Then the Terrestrial will be resurrected, before the end of the last millennium, because they were willing to repent of the sins they knew they had committed even though it took them a while to find out what was true and what was needed because they were more prone to be deceived by the teachings of men who taught things contrary to the Spirit of God and because they had not done what it took to obtain the gift of the Holy Spirit even after being told how to obtain it and thus they were more susceptible to accepting false teachings from men rather than truth taught by the Spirit of truth.  And then the Telestial will be resurrected after they have paid the price for their sins in Hell because they would not repent before the end of the last millennium even after being told and instructed repeatedly and sufficiently that they needed to repent.  And then last of all Perdition and his followers will be resurrected and will go into what we call outer darkness because they were not willing to follow our Savior even while knowing what their fate would be without him as their Lord and Savior.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Ahab

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

It is difficult to imagine, isn't it.  These people are told that if they do not repent they will suffer for their sins in Hell.  And still they do not repent.  So they suffer in Hell for their sins because they would not repent. 

How long do they suffer?  Until they pay the full penalty for their sins.  

What happens then, after they have paid the full penalty for their sins?

The way I see it, they are given a choice.  They can bow their knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ, determining from that point forward to serve him, as well as they can.  Or they can go with Lucifer into outer darkness.  Which do you think they would choose?

Where would one find this doctrine or interpretation of doctrine in the scriptures?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Maybe, to some extent.  I believe what we call our "final judgment" will come after we are resurrected, and that we are resurrected according to whether or not we are willing to repent, and when.  The righteous who do their best to follow our Lord and obey his commandments will be resurrected first, before anyone who will receive either Terrestrial or Telestial glory is resurrected, and they will receive Celestial glory because they were willing to follow our Lord and obey his commandments as well as they could when they found out what he commanded them to do.  They were told they needed to be baptized, so they were baptized.  And they were told they needed to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, so they did what it took to receive it.  And other things such as that.  Then the Terrestrial will be resurrected, before the end of the last millennium, because they were willing to repent of the sins they knew they had committed even though it took them a while to find out what was true and what was needed because they were more prone to be deceived by the teachings of men who taught things contrary to the Spirit of God and because they had not done what it took to obtain the gift of the Holy Spirit even after being told how to obtain it and thus they were more susceptible to accepting false teachings from men rather than truth taught by the Spirit of truth.  And then the Telestial will be resurrected after they have paid the price for their sins in Hell because they would not repent before the end of the last millennium even after being told and instructed repeatedly and sufficiently that they needed to repent.  And then last of all Perdition and his followers will be resurrected and will go into what we call outer darkness because they were not willing to follow our Savior even while knowing what their fate would be without him as their Lord and Savior.

Paying the price of one's own sins does not atone for those sins. It does not repair the collateral damage done to the innocent or faithful, nor does it address the encouragement of the wicked to do worse than they otherwise might have done. It cannot repair any of these things (only Christ can, and did, so no amount of personal suffering can undo His atoning sacrifice) This is why I think no one can suffer enough to advance his lot as far as the Atonement of Christ would otherwise enable him, no one has the spiritual wherewithal to do that, and the innocent, faithful and repentant have already turned to Him, removing that option anyway. Yes, the resurrection comes before the judgement (another word for "judgement" is "punishment"), and after the punishment is executed, one goes to his own place.

[Ahab]

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

Paying the price of one's own sins does not atone for those sins. It does not repair the collateral damage done to the innocent or faithful, nor does it address the encouragement of the wicked to do worse than they otherwise might have done. It cannot repair any of these things (only Christ can, and did, so no amount of personal suffering can undo His atoning sacrifice) This is why I think no one can suffer enough to advance his lot as far as the Atonement of Christ would otherwise enable him, no one has the spiritual wherewithal to do that, and the innocent, faithful and repentant have already turned to Him, removing that option anyway. Yes, the resurrection comes before the judgement (another word for "judgement" is "punishment"), and after the punishment is executed, one goes to his own place.

Yes, and that helps to explain why they receive only Telestial glory rather than Celestial glory after they have suffered for their sins, I think.  

So the way I see it, we are addressing 2 separate issues here.  When we sin we must either repent or suffer for our sins, but sinning or suffering from our sins does not in and of itself help us to grow and mature to become more like Jesus Christ and our Father in heaven  So we still need some way to somehow be able to learn more and become better people than people who only sin and then recover from sin, however we recover from our sins, whether it is by repentance or personally suffering for our own sins.  And I believe God can help us with that, either through the ministrations of the Holy Spirit or the personal ministrations of Jesus Christ or our Father in heaven and those who have learned from them more than others of us have learned from them.

Those who receive Telestial glory will therefore need some ministrations from others with more of the glory of God than they have who will be ministering to help them to learn more and become better people, ministrations from the Holy Ghost and those of Terrestrial glory, a higher degree of glory/intelligence than those of Telestial glory will have, to help them learn more and become better people.  And those of Terrestrial glory will receive ministrations from Jesus Christ and others of Celestial glory to help them learn more to become better people.  And those of Celestial glory will also have the help of Jesus Christ as well as the personal ministrations of our Father in heaven.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Yes, and that helps to explain why they receive only Telestial glory rather than Celestial glory after they have suffered for their sins, I think.  

So the way I see it, we are addressing 2 separate issues here.  When we sin we must either repent or suffer for our sins, but sinning or suffering from our sins does not in and of itself help us to grow and mature to become more like Jesus Christ and our Father in heaven  So we still need some way to somehow be able to learn more and become better people than people who only sin and then recover from sin, however we recover from our sins, whether it is by repentance or personally suffering for our own sins.  And I believe God can help us with that, either through the ministrations of the Holy Spirit or the personal ministrations of Jesus Christ or our Father in heaven and those who have learned from them more than others of us have learned from them.

Those who receive Telestial glory will therefore need some ministrations from others with more of the glory of God than they have who will be ministering to help them to learn more and become better people, ministrations from the Holy Ghost and those of Terrestrial glory, a higher degree of glory/intelligence than those of Telestial glory will have, to help them learn more and become better people.  And those of Terrestrial glory will receive ministrations from Jesus Christ and others of Celestial glory to help them learn more to become better people.  And those of Celestial glory will also have the help of Jesus Christ as well as the personal ministrations of our Father in heaven.

Good points. We are also addressing two separate issues with regards to how we recover from our sins, (1) whether it is by repentance or (2) personally suffering for our own sins. All things being equal, the first will always result in greater glory than the second.

The kinds and degrees of ministration in the kingdoms of glory have to do with what one has already determined is the portion of a fulness he is willing to receive (all or some). I view these ministrations as accommodations rendered by beings of greater glory to those of lesser in a spirit of service and love. I’m not sure that non-exalted beings experience an ever-increasing desire for more light and glory, since more than what has proven to be expected of them would be required. That is why this day of life is the time to prepare for eternity.

[CV75]

On 3/8/2020 at 10:24 PM, mfbukowski said:

Not according to temple initiatories, but, amazingly, this differs between men and women somewhat.

Hi mfb I thought I'd get back to this since things seem to be winding down on the other train of thought.

Looking at the differences between the ordinances received by men and women: I think the intent is to bring the two differences together as one functional entity. Ceremonially / symbolically, the union must at once be clean so to bring forth the innocent children, and also able to become clean for when those children have light and truth taken away from them (D&C 93:38-40). The couple knows that each product of such a union is clean (for a few years, anyway) and then becomes unclean, and is also able to become clean again. In the eternities, these unions bring forth a continuation of the seed, among whom saviors are chosen to become mortal: the mother is clean for their innocent birth and their father has become clean so as to pass along the godly attributes and powers in a fallen, mortal world.

[mfbukowski]

34 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Hi mfb I thought I'd get back to this since things seem to be winding down on the other train of thought.

Looking at the differences between the ordinances received by men and women: I think the intent is to bring the two differences together as one functional entity. Ceremonially / symbolically, the union must at once be clean so to bring forth the innocent children, and also able to become clean for when those children have light and truth taken away from them (D&C 93:38-40). The couple knows that each product of such a union is clean (for a few years, anyway) and then becomes unclean, and is also able to become clean again. In the eternities, these unions bring forth a continuation of the seed, among whom saviors are chosen to become mortal: the mother is clean for their innocent birth and their father has become clean so as to pass along the godly attributes and powers in a fallen, mortal world.

Wow, those are really great ideas, thanks. Let me ponder them a bit and I will get back to you.

An interesting consideration to throw into that pot is also the fact that remember Eve was the first to understand the necessity of evil in the Plan of Salvation.

Gotta ponder that one. ! 

She had incredible insight to figure that one out. Theologians for millenia struggled with the problem of evil but she got it almost immediately.

But even if the story is figurative which it was, that insight itself points to this larger question.

I think you get what I'm saying but it's hard to know how far to be explicit at these matters.

Edited March 11, 2020 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Wow, those are really great ideas, thanks. Let me ponder them a bit and I will get back to you.

An interesting consideration to throw into that pot is also the fact that remember Eve was the first to understand the necessity of evil in the Plan of Salvation.

Gotta ponder that one. ! 

She had incredible insight to figure that one out. Theologians for millenia struggled with the problem of evil but she got it almost immediately.

But even if the story is figurative which it was, that insight itself points to this larger question.

I think you get what I'm saying but it's hard to know how far to be explicit at these matters.

No "explicit-tiousness" is necessary... :) But I think there is as much responsibility after having been made clean as there is to become clean.

 

[mfbukowski]

On 3/10/2020 at 2:14 PM, Vanguard said:

I don't believe it is about one single ordinance that separates those who are saved from hell as you describe and those who are not. I'm not sure if I'm understanding you though. Are you looking for the one variable that makes the difference? 

Yes that seems to be what he wants.  He wants to push the right button and get the Golden Ticket.  "You're going to Hollywood Heaven!"

He doesn't understand and I think he is not even LDS, or at least knows nothing about the temple, and cannot see that being "saved" is a relative thing and is part of a journey and progression.  The thinking here is purely Evangelical- you at one time confess Jesus and your lord and savior and are instantly "saved" without any definitions or idea of progression or even how that happens.  You get the golden ticket.   You can do a Luther "sin boldly" thing but it's ok because you are "saved"- whatever that means.

The tacit implication through all his discussions is that he is coming from a very simple Evangelical perspective, regardless of if he is LDS, and so I think he clearly is not.