Sunslight Posted March 8, 2020 Author Posted March 8, 2020 37 minutes ago, CV75 said: That is God's overall, ultimate intended message of the scriptural works on the whole (with the most significant addition that it only comes through Christ), but where the scriptures speak of physical and spiritual death, and two distinct redemptions from these, not always. I showed how the passage in Mosiah 15 shows that, and Mormon 9:13 was the other reference I gave: 13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the apresence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the bresurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless csleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal dband of death, which death is a temporal death. Where it says "this is wherein all men are redeemed," it means salvation from physical death. Now it might be said that we are always living in the presence of God (we just don't see Him) and in this sense we are all spiritually saved as well, since we are not spirits eternally subject to the devil for all eternity. It can also be said that we are saved spiritually and in the presence of God in that the administrations and presence of the Holy Spirit, the Son, and the Father, and even including ministering angels from higher kingdoms by divine delegation, (as described in D&C 76), constitute "God." Yes. Of great importance is that this salvation, being saved from hell and death, requires Ordinances and covenants.
CV75 Posted March 8, 2020 Posted March 8, 2020 14 hours ago, Sunslight said: Yes. Of great importance is that this salvation, being saved from hell and death, requires Ordinances and covenants. To clarify, being saved from death and hell -- together -- requires the saving ordinances and covenants and their efficacy and observation by virtue of Christ, and "this salvation" refers to salvation in the celestial kingdom.
Sunslight Posted March 8, 2020 Author Posted March 8, 2020 3 hours ago, CV75 said: To clarify, being saved from death and hell -- together -- requires the saving ordinances and covenants and their efficacy and observation by virtue of Christ, and "this salvation" refers to salvation in the celestial kingdom. Do you think it is possible to be saved from spiritual death without ordinances and covenants?
CV75 Posted March 8, 2020 Posted March 8, 2020 32 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Do you think it is possible to be saved from spiritual death without ordinances and covenants? If you consider those “who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial” or “through the ministration of the celestial,” or “of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them (“for they shall be heirs of salvation”)” to be living, to this extent, in the presence of God, then yes, I think it is possible to be saved from spiritual death without the ordinances and covenants administered by the keys we have in the earthly kingdom. I referred to that already here: Posted 18 hours ago I take an heir of salvation in D&C 76 to refer to salvation from temporal death, and in a sense salvation from spiritual death to some degree of glory, or degree of presence (or distance) of God. 1
Sunslight Posted March 8, 2020 Author Posted March 8, 2020 1 hour ago, CV75 said: If you consider those “who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial” or “through the ministration of the celestial,” or “of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them (“for they shall be heirs of salvation”)” to be living, to this extent, in the presence of God, then yes, I think it is possible to be saved from spiritual death without the ordinances and covenants administered by the keys we have in the earthly kingdom. I referred to that already here: Posted 18 hours ago I take an heir of salvation in D&C 76 to refer to salvation from temporal death, and in a sense salvation from spiritual death to some degree of glory, or degree of presence (or distance) of God. The Guide to the Scriptures is of the opinion that obedience to ordinances is required to overcome spiritual death. "Spiritual death was introduced into the world by the Fall of Adam (Moses 6:48). Mortals with evil thoughts, words, and works are spiritually dead while still alive on earth (1 Tim. 5:6). Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel, men and women can become clean from sin and overcome spiritual death." Our scriptures also teach that obedience to the ordinances of the gospel is required to overcome spiritual death and become clean. The work for the dead as taught in section 138 teaches that obedience to the ordinances are required to be released from the chains of spiritual death. I admit this is a very grey area of our doctrine and not well laid out. From a purely gospel construct, becoming clean happens only with baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Repentance is only granted with the covenants associated with baptism. I am interested in how one therefore constructs the logic of overcoming hell without any ordinance or covenant. I have heard things such as they must suffer and pay for their own sins or, through the mercy of Christ he will redeem them if they merely confess his name before God. Neither of these beliefs are found in Scripture though and appear to be the constructs of men's minds. How do you think they become cleansed from their sins?
CV75 Posted March 8, 2020 Posted March 8, 2020 32 minutes ago, Sunslight said: The Guide to the Scriptures is of the opinion that obedience to ordinances is required to overcome spiritual death. "Spiritual death was introduced into the world by the Fall of Adam (Moses 6:48). Mortals with evil thoughts, words, and works are spiritually dead while still alive on earth (1 Tim. 5:6). Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel, men and women can become clean from sin and overcome spiritual death." Our scriptures also teach that obedience to the ordinances of the gospel is required to overcome spiritual death and become clean. The work for the dead as taught in section 138 teaches that obedience to the ordinances are required to be released from the chains of spiritual death. I admit this is a very grey area of our doctrine and not well laid out. From a purely gospel construct, becoming clean happens only with baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Repentance is only granted with the covenants associated with baptism. I am interested in how one therefore constructs the logic of overcoming hell without any ordinance or covenant. I have heard things such as they must suffer and pay for their own sins or, through the mercy of Christ he will redeem them if they merely confess his name before God. Neither of these beliefs are found in Scripture though and appear to be the constructs of men's minds. How do you think they become cleansed from their sins? The Guide to the Scriptures offers the fullest sense of becoming clean from sin and victorious over spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel. As well it should. Its use of the word “becoming” indicates there are stages short of perfection. I take D&C 138 in the same way. In a sense, the doctrine of degrees acknowledges that there are “graydients” 😊 of progression and judgement, and supports the logic of overcoming spiritual death -- to a degree -- without entering and/or keeping any ordinance or covenant offered by the Church for the living and the dead. We are all cleansed from our sins no matter what we do through the perfect, infinite and eternal sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But that does not guarantee that what one chooses to do with that gift results in the realization of one's perfect deliverance when all is said and done.
Sunslight Posted March 8, 2020 Author Posted March 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, CV75 said: The Guide to the Scriptures offers the fullest sense of becoming clean from sin and victorious over spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel. As well it should. Its use of the word “becoming” indicates there are stages short of perfection. I take D&C 138 in the same way. In a sense, the doctrine of degrees acknowledges that there are “graydients” 😊 of progression and judgement, and supports the logic of overcoming spiritual death -- to a degree -- without entering and/or keeping any ordinance or covenant offered by the Church for the living and the dead. We are all cleansed from our sins no matter what we do through the perfect, infinite and eternal sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But that does not guarantee that what one chooses to do with that gift results in the realization of one's perfect deliverance when all is said and done. But doesn't it say that there are some who shall be found "filthy still" at the last day? Doesn't sound like they are cleansed. In fact, only those who repent and are baptized become cleansed. How do you reconcile that principle?
CV75 Posted March 8, 2020 Posted March 8, 2020 23 minutes ago, Sunslight said: But doesn't it say that there are some who shall be found "filthy still" at the last day? Doesn't sound like they are cleansed. In fact, only those who repent and are baptized become cleansed. How do you reconcile that principle? I'm not sure what you are asking. Only those who receive the ordinances and keep them fully are fully cleansed in Christ. Those who refuse them, or receive them but not fully keep them, or refuse them but live according to some degree of light, would not be fully cleansed in Christ. 1
Sunslight Posted March 8, 2020 Author Posted March 8, 2020 15 minutes ago, CV75 said: I'm not sure what you are asking. Only those who receive the ordinances and keep them fully are fully cleansed in Christ. Those who refuse them, or receive them but not fully keep them, or refuse them but live according to some degree of light, would not be fully cleansed in Christ. That sounds like a strange doctrine.
Sunslight Posted March 9, 2020 Author Posted March 9, 2020 What doctrine of Christ saves one from hell but doesn't fully cleanse them?
mfbukowski Posted March 9, 2020 Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, CV75 said: I'm not sure what you are asking. Only those who receive the ordinances and keep them fully are fully cleansed in Christ. Not according to temple initiatories, but, amazingly, this differs between men and women somewhat. Edited March 9, 2020 by mfbukowski
CV75 Posted March 9, 2020 Posted March 9, 2020 10 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Not according to temple initiatories, but, amazingly, this differs between men and women somewhat. I know what you are referring to, but I take this to mean that the requirements for what constitutes "fully keeping" differ.
CV75 Posted March 9, 2020 Posted March 9, 2020 13 hours ago, Sunslight said: That sounds like a strange doctrine. That is fine with me.
Sunslight Posted March 9, 2020 Author Posted March 9, 2020 13 minutes ago, CV75 said: That is fine with me. How do telestial and terrestrial inhabitants receive cleansing from some, but not all, of their sins? In your opinion, What gospel principle allows this?
CV75 Posted March 9, 2020 Posted March 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Sunslight said: How do telestial and terrestrial inhabitants receive cleansing from some, but not all, of their sins? In your opinion, What gospel principle allows this? It’s a degree of cleansing. To paraphrase D&C 138: 58 The [living and the] dead who repent will be redeemed [from spiritual death], through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions [that is, have experienced godly sorrow, a broken and contrite heart, and the willingness to live according to God in the spirit], and are washed clean [commensurate with the penalty they accepted], shall receive a reward [a degree of glory] according to [that is, commensurate with] their works [while under penalty], for they are heirs of salvation [and enjoy that degree which they are willing to receive, up to and including a fulness]. Those who reject any ordinance and pay no penalty remain as clean (or as filthy, however one wants to look at it) as they can be independent of Christ, according to their innate intelligence (D&C 88:35, Abraham 3:19). Typically we consider this to be "filthy still," yet these too are heirs of salvation and retain some light of some kind ("These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit"). Of course, Christ’s Atonement has already cleansed us perfectly, but we have to be willing to abide accordingly to personally realize a full cleansing in actuality. I may answer the next question you have with a question.
Sunslight Posted March 9, 2020 Author Posted March 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, CV75 said: It’s a degree of cleansing. To paraphrase D&C 138: 58 The [living and the] dead who repent will be redeemed [from spiritual death], through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions [that is, have experienced godly sorrow, a broken and contrite heart, and the willingness to live according to God in the spirit], and are washed clean [commensurate with the penalty they accepted], shall receive a reward [a degree of glory] according to [that is, commensurate with] their works [while under penalty], for they are heirs of salvation [and enjoy that degree which they are willing to receive, up to and including a fulness]. Those who reject any ordinance and pay no penalty remain as clean (or as filthy, however one wants to look at it) as they can be independent of Christ, according to their innate intelligence (D&C 88:35, Abraham 3:19). Typically we consider this to be "filthy still," yet these too are heirs of salvation and retain some light of some kind ("These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit"). Of course, Christ’s Atonement has already cleansed us perfectly, but we have to be willing to abide accordingly to personally realize a full cleansing in actuality. I may answer the next question you have with a question. So, according to section 138, the work done by proxy in temples have cleansing power. Which ordinance/ ordinances is/ are required for the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants to be "washed clean"?
CV75 Posted March 9, 2020 Posted March 9, 2020 57 minutes ago, Sunslight said: So, according to section 138, the work done by proxy in temples have cleansing power. Which ordinance/ ordinances is/ are required for the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants to be "washed clean"? They are washed clean to the the degree they receive and keep those ordinances, or to the degree they abide the lesser law of a corresponding kingdom without receiving and keeping them. For example, the power of the Holy Spirit is evidently in operation in the telestial kingdom much as it is here. People can still enjoy the intermittent power of the Holy Spirit and the light of Christ -- to varying degrees -- while willfully rejecting the Gospel and the ordinances.
Sunslight Posted March 9, 2020 Author Posted March 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, CV75 said: They are washed clean to the the degree they receive and keep those ordinances, or to the degree they abide the lesser law of a corresponding kingdom without receiving and keeping them. For example, the power of the Holy Spirit is evidently in operation in the telestial kingdom much as it is here. People can still enjoy the intermittent power of the Holy Spirit and the light of Christ -- to varying degrees -- while willfully rejecting the Gospel and the ordinances. Let me ask another way perhaps. What specific ordinance/ ordinances that we do in temples, in behalf for the dead, has the power to cleanse?
CV75 Posted March 9, 2020 Posted March 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Sunslight said: Let me ask another way perhaps. What specific ordinance/ ordinances that we do in temples, in behalf for the dead, has the power to cleanse? Only the Christ has the power to cleanse, and only the willing can be cleansed, no matter what cleansing ordinance they receive. I prefer to use the term "ordinance" or 'cleansing ordinance" generically as they are adequate for the purposes of this thread. 1
Sunslight Posted March 9, 2020 Author Posted March 9, 2020 24 minutes ago, CV75 said: Only the Christ has the power to cleanse, and only the willing can be cleansed, no matter what cleansing ordinance they receive. I prefer to use the term "ordinance" or 'cleansing ordinance" generically as they are adequate for the purposes of this thread. Yes, it's only because of Christ and the atonement that we can be cleansed. But we must do something on our part to be cleansed. We must first have faith, then repent, then be baptized and then receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That is the prescribed process whereby souls become clean in order to be saved. Would you agree that the ordinances we provide by proxy to the dead for cleansing is baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost?
CV75 Posted March 9, 2020 Posted March 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Sunslight said: Yes, it's only because of Christ and the atonement that we can be cleansed. But we must do something on our part to be cleansed. We must first have faith, then repent, then be baptized and then receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That is the prescribed process whereby souls become clean in order to be saved. Would you agree that the ordinances we provide by proxy to the dead for cleansing is baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost? Yes, those are two ordinances can lead to both instant and progressive spiritual cleansing if one's heart is right and kept right, whether in person or by proxy. One can also be clean and then become unclean again, and do so by degrees. The only 100% perfect cleansing is in the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The ordinances just help us move along the path to receive it. The temple was instituted from before the foundation of the world as the place where the a keys of the holy priesthood are ordained (established), that we may receive honor and glory.
Sunslight Posted March 9, 2020 Author Posted March 9, 2020 2 hours ago, CV75 said: Yes, those are two ordinances can lead to both instant and progressive spiritual cleansing if one's heart is right and kept right, whether in person or by proxy. One can also be clean and then become unclean again, and do so by degrees. The only 100% perfect cleansing is in the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The ordinances just help us move along the path to receive it. The temple was instituted from before the foundation of the world as the place where the a keys of the holy priesthood are ordained (established), that we may receive honor and glory. So, to gain salvation from hell into glory one must repent and be baptized. Correct?
CV75 Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 13 hours ago, Sunslight said: So, to gain salvation from hell into glory one must repent and be baptized. Correct? As always, it depends on what you mean by salvation, hell and glory. The invitation from Christ is to return to Him and the Father by abiding in His doctrine as taught in the Book of Mormon, which includes more than repentance and baptism.
Sunslight Posted March 10, 2020 Author Posted March 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, CV75 said: As always, it depends on what you mean by salvation, hell and glory. The invitation from Christ is to return to Him and the Father by abiding in His doctrine as taught in the Book of Mormon, which includes more than repentance and baptism. At minimum, what ordinance is required to be saved from hell where Satan and his Angels go in eternity?
CV75 Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Sunslight said: At minimum, what ordinance is required to be saved from hell where Satan and his Angels go in eternity? I understand the resurrection to be that ordinance, which is an outgrowth of birth and the Atonement of Jesus Christ (both of which might be considered ordinances of salvation in a non-Handbook sense).
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