Origin of the Quorum of Twelve / First Presidency Magi Wise Men?

[nuclearfuels]

Merry Christmas, friends.

I'm curious as to if any of you could help point me in the direction of research on the origin of the Magi.  

Seems like they came from a solid gospel understanding - though I'm not sure there were Quorums of Twelve prior to the Savior.

I'm not ruling it out due to the Lost Tribes possibility but...how do a people go from say the Levitical priesthood and gospel to Zoroastrianism (roughly the time of Lehi, Jeremiah, Zedekiah when Zoroaster was born), while retaining for 6 centuries a faith in the Messiah that warranted a trip of 1,200 miles (Saba, Iran to Bethlehem) and between 6 and 24 months? 

 

From wikipedia:

Matthew is the only one of the four canonical gospels to mention the Magi. Matthew reports that they came "from the east" to worship the "king of the Jews".^[2] The gospel never mentions the number of Magi, but most western Christian denominations have traditionally assumed them to have been three in number, based on the statement that they brought three gifts.^[3] In Eastern Christianity, especially the Syriac churches, the Magi often number twelve.^[4] Their identification as kings in later Christian writings is probably linked to Psalm 72:11, "May all kings fall down before him (emphasis added)." ^[5][6]

----------

The phrase "from the east" (ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν, apo anatolon), more literally "from the rising [of the sun]", is the only information Matthew provides about the region from which they came. The Parthian Empire, centered in Persia, occupied virtually all of the land east of Judea and Syria (except for the deserts of Arabia to the southeast). Though the empire was tolerant of other religions, its dominant religion was Zoroastrianism, with its priestly magos class.^[32]

Although Matthew's account does not explicitly cite the motivation for their journey (other than seeing the star in the east, which they took to be the star of the King of the Jews), the Syriac Infancy Gospel provides some clarity by stating explicitly in the third chapter that they were pursuing a prophecy from their prophet, Zoradascht (Zoroaster).^[33]

There is an Armenian tradition identifying the "Magi of Bethlehem" as Balthasar of Arabia, Melchior of Persia, and Gaspar of India.^[34] Historian John of Hildesheim relates a tradition in the ancient silk road city of Taxila (near Islamabad in Pakistan) that one of the Magi passed through the city on the way to Bethlehem.^[35]

 

Sebastian Brock, a historian of Christianity, has said: "It was no doubt among converts from Zoroastrianism that… certain legends were developed around the Magi of the Gospels".^[36][37] And Anders Hultgård concluded that the Gospel story of the Magi was influenced by an Iranian legend concerning magi and a star, which was connected with Persian beliefs in the rise of a star predicting the birth of a ruler and with myths describing the manifestation of a divine figure in fire and light.^[38]

A model for the homage of the Magi might have been provided, it has been suggested, by the journey to Rome of King Tiridates I of Armenia, with his magi, to pay homage to the Emperor Nero, which took place in 66 AD, a few years before the date assigned to the composition of the Gospel of Matthew.^[39][40]

There was a tradition that the Central Asian Naimans and their Christian relatives, the Keraites, were descended from the biblical Magi.^[41] This heritage passed to the Mongol dynasty of Genghis Khan when Sorghaghtani, niece of the Keraite ruler Toghrul, married Tolui, the youngest son of Genghis, and became the mother of Möngke Khan and his younger brother and successor, Kublai Khan. Toghrul became identified with the legendary Central Asian Christian king, Prester John, whose Mongol descendants were sought as allies against the Muslims by contemporary European monarchs and popes.^[42] Sempad the Constable, elder brother of King Hetoum I of Cilician Armenia, visited the Mongol court in Karakorum in 1247–1250 and in 1254. He wrote a letter to Henry I King of Cyprus and Queen Stephanie (Sempad’s sister) from Samarkand in 1243, in which he said: “Tanchat [Tangut, or Western Xia], which is the land from whence came the Three Kings to Bethlehem to worship the Lord Jesus which was born. And know that the power of Christ has been, and is, so great, that the people of that land are Christians; and the whole land of Chata [Khitai, or Kara-Khitai] believes those Three Kings. I have myself been in their churches and have seen pictures of Jesus Christ and the Three Kings, one offering gold, the second frankincense, and the third myrrh. And it is through those Three Kings that they believe in Christ, and that the Chan and his people have now become Christians”.^[43] The legendary Christian ruler of Central Asia, Prester John was reportedly a descendant of one of the Magi.^[44]

 

There are several traditions on where the remains of the Magi are located, although none of the traditions is considered as an established fact or even as particularly likely by secular history. Marco Polo claimed that he was shown the three tombs of the Magi at Saveh south of Tehran in the 1270s:

In Persia is the city of Saba, from which the Three Magi set out when they went to worship Jesus Christ; and in this city they are buried, in three very large and beautiful monuments, side by side. And above them there is a square building, carefully kept. The bodies are still entire, with the hair and beard remaining.

— Marco Polo, Polo, Marco, The Book of the Million, book I, chapter 13

Paul William Roberts provides some modern-day corroboration of this possibility in his book Journey of the Magi.^[60]

 

The Shrine of the Three Kings in Cologne Cathedral, Germany, c. 1200.

A Shrine of the Three Kings at Cologne Cathedral, according to tradition, contains the bones of the Three Wise Men. Reputedly they were first discovered by Saint Helena on her famous pilgrimage to Palestine and the Holy Lands. She took the remains to the church of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople; they were later moved to Milan (some sources say by the city's bishop, Eustorgius I^[61]), before being sent to their current resting place by the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick I in 1164. The Milanese celebrate their part in the tradition by holding a medieval costume parade every 6 January.

A version of the detailed elaboration familiar to us is laid out by the 14th-century cleric John of Hildesheim's Historia Trium Regum ("History of the Three Kings"). In accounting for the presence in Cologne of their mummified relics, he begins with the journey of Helena, the mother of Constantine I to Jerusalem, where she recovered the True Cross and other relics:

 

Journey of the Magi (top) and Adoration of the Magi (side) on a Limoges champlevé chasse, c. 1200 (Musée de Cluny, Paris)

Queen Helen… began to think greatly of the bodies of these three kings, and she arrayed herself, and accompanied by many attendants, went into the Land of Ind… after she had found the bodies of Melchior, Balthazar, and Gaspar, Queen Helen put them into one chest and ornamented it with great riches, and she brought them into Constantinople... and laid them in a church that is called Saint Sophia.

[RevTestament]

10 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Merry Christmas, friends.

I'm curious as to if any of you could help point me in the direction of research on the origin of the Magi.  

Seems like they came from a solid gospel understanding - though I'm not sure there were Quorums of Twelve prior to the Savior.

I'm not ruling it out due to the Lost Tribes possibility but...how do a people go from say the Levitical priesthood and gospel to Zoroastrianism (roughly the time of Lehi, Jeremiah, Zedekiah when Zoroaster was born), while retaining for 6 centuries a faith in the Messiah that warranted a trip of 1,200 miles (Saba, Iran to Bethlehem) and between 6 and 24 months? 

I'm afraid I am not going to be a terribly lot of help. The story of the Magi has been probably lost to history except for in Matthew for several reasons. To understand better though, I think it important to understand the history of the Parthians somewhat. I am wondering where you  got this location Saba? The name Parthian comes from the province of Parthia on the east of the Caspian Sea. The Parthians were a semi-nomadic people who were expert horsemen. They rebelled against the Seleucid Empire set up by one of four generals of Alexander the Great who split up his empire. Upon defeating the Seleucids, they built a new capitol named Ctesiphon in the region of Babylon, which was essentially a ruined city. It is believed the Zoroastrian religion began in the region of Parthia, and spread with the Parthians when they became rulers. The word magi comes from the Greek word Magos, which is attested from the fifth century B.C.E. as a direct loan from the term maguš, which is a Persian word from an Indo-Iranian root *magh, "powerful, rich." According to the Greek writer Herodotus, the word magos was held by aristocrats of the Median nation and specifically to Zoroastrian astronomer-priests. In Herodotus' writings, the term magos usually referred to a member of the tribe of the Medes (1.101) who could interpret dreams (7.37). This harkens back to Daniel in Babylon. The "lost tribes" had been settled in the region of Media by the Assyrians, and may have gained prominence as Magi under the rule of the Parthians. The Median magi had actually revolted against Darius. With the spread of Hellenism under Greek rule, magos started to be used as an adjective, meaning "magical." The Zoroastrian keepers of the eternal flame became the Magi of the Parthian religion, Zoroastrianism. The Parthians elected their kings from a council. This council was probably considered Magi("The powerful") by the Parthian people. Unfortunately, much about the Parthian Empire is lost to history. The Parthians themselves were apparently not very literate. They were hated by the Romans as a threat from the East, and the Persians would later have little incentive to preserve their history when they reconquered the empire. What little we know we owe mainly to the Greek historians. 

The Parthians were a tolerant ruling class essentially. They did not try to impose their religion, and subjects who supported them were free to rise in the ranks of the military and their society. Were the wise men in Matthew Zoroastrian? That is doubtful. They were either Jews who had remained in the region of Babylon or descendants of the ten tribes who had become familiar with the Book of Daniel from those Jews. Modern readers get the idea that all the Jews returned to Jerusalem after the Babylonian  diaspora. This is far from reality. Josephus tells us that upon the return of the Jews there were not enough priests to fill all the courses of service set up by David, so the priests had to temporarily serve more than their traditional two courses during the 24 courses of the year. The numbers he gives indicate that about 1/6 of the priests returned. It is reasonable to conclude that the numbers for the rest of the Jewish population were similar, although we don't know how many may have trickled back after Jerusalem was rebuilt. This leaves a large Jewish population back in the land of Babylon, as well as probably a large portion of the lost tribes. The Messiah (the anointed) of Daniel was expected by the Jews during the reign of the Maccabees. The Maccabees actually made an alliance with the Parthians, who conquered eastern Syria from the Romans for a short time under the rule of Herod. So Herod wanted nothing to do with these Magi from the Parthian Empire, and would have been quite alarmed by any talk of a prophesied king to rise among the Jews. The time was right, but the Jews were expecting someone to save them from Herod's despotic and oppressive rule, rather than someone who would supplant their need for the Mosaic law. The time was right, so Magi Hebrews from the east who were familiar with the prophecies came to see the fulfillment of those prophecies. They were not some curious Zoroastrian priests....

10 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

 

 

Although the region you indicate was the land of Media, I am curious as to why you start with Saba and end at Bethlehem of Galilee rather than Bethlehem.

 

 

Quote

From wikipedia:

Matthew is the only one of the four canonical gospels to mention the Magi. Matthew reports that they came "from the east" to worship the "king of the Jews".^[2] The gospel never mentions the number of Magi, but most western Christian denominations have traditionally assumed them to have been three in number, based on the statement that they brought three gifts.^[3] In Eastern Christianity, especially the Syriac churches, the Magi often number twelve.^[4] Their identification as kings in later Christian writings is probably linked to Psalm 72:11, "May all kings fall down before him (emphasis added)." ^[5][6]

----------

The phrase "from the east" (ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν, apo anatolon), more literally "from the rising [of the sun]", is the only information Matthew provides about the region from which they came. The Parthian Empire, centered in Persia, occupied virtually all of the land east of Judea and Syria (except for the deserts of Arabia to the southeast). Though the empire was tolerant of other religions, its dominant religion was Zoroastrianism, with its priestly magos class.^[32]

Although Matthew's account does not explicitly cite the motivation for their journey (other than seeing the star in the east, which they took to be the star of the King of the Jews), the Syriac Infancy Gospel provides some clarity by stating explicitly in the third chapter that they were pursuing a prophecy from their prophet, Zoradascht (Zoroaster).^[33]

There is an Armenian tradition identifying the "Magi of Bethlehem" as Balthasar of Arabia, Melchior of Persia, and Gaspar of India.^[34] Historian John of Hildesheim relates a tradition in the ancient silk road city of Taxila (near Islamabad in Pakistan) that one of the Magi passed through the city on the way to Bethlehem.^[35]

Sebastian Brock, a historian of Christianity, has said: "It was no doubt among converts from Zoroastrianism that… certain legends were developed around the Magi of the Gospels".^[36][37] And Anders Hultgård concluded that the Gospel story of the Magi was influenced by an Iranian legend concerning magi and a star, which was connected with Persian beliefs in the rise of a star predicting the birth of a ruler and with myths describing the manifestation of a divine figure in fire and light.^[38]

A model for the homage of the Magi might have been provided, it has been suggested, by the journey to Rome of King Tiridates I of Armenia, with his magi, to pay homage to the Emperor Nero, which took place in 66 AD, a few years before the date assigned to the composition of the Gospel of Matthew.^[39][40]

There was a tradition that the Central Asian Naimans and their Christian relatives, the Keraites, were descended from the biblical Magi.^[41] This heritage passed to the Mongol dynasty of Genghis Khan when Sorghaghtani, niece of the Keraite ruler Toghrul, married Tolui, the youngest son of Genghis, and became the mother of Möngke Khan and his younger brother and successor, Kublai Khan. Toghrul became identified with the legendary Central Asian Christian king, Prester John, whose Mongol descendants were sought as allies against the Muslims by contemporary European monarchs and popes.^[42] Sempad the Constable, elder brother of King Hetoum I of Cilician Armenia, visited the Mongol court in Karakorum in 1247–1250 and in 1254. He wrote a letter to Henry I King of Cyprus and Queen Stephanie (Sempad’s sister) from Samarkand in 1243, in which he said: “Tanchat [Tangut, or Western Xia], which is the land from whence came the Three Kings to Bethlehem to worship the Lord Jesus which was born. And know that the power of Christ has been, and is, so great, that the people of that land are Christians; and the whole land of Chata [Khitai, or Kara-Khitai] believes those Three Kings. I have myself been in their churches and have seen pictures of Jesus Christ and the Three Kings, one offering gold, the second frankincense, and the third myrrh. And it is through those Three Kings that they believe in Christ, and that the Chan and his people have now become Christians”.^[43] The legendary Christian ruler of Central Asia, Prester John was reportedly a descendant of one of the Magi.^[44]

 

There are several traditions on where the remains of the Magi are located, although none of the traditions is considered as an established fact or even as particularly likely by secular history. Marco Polo claimed that he was shown the three tombs of the Magi at Saveh south of Tehran in the 1270s:

In Persia is the city of Saba, from which the Three Magi set out when they went to worship Jesus Christ; and in this city they are buried, in three very large and beautiful monuments, side by side. And above them there is a square building, carefully kept. The bodies are still entire, with the hair and beard remaining.

— Marco Polo, Polo, Marco, The Book of the Million, book I, chapter 13

Paul William Roberts provides some modern-day corroboration of this possibility in his book Journey of the Magi.^[60]

A Shrine of the Three Kings at Cologne Cathedral, according to tradition, contains the bones of the Three Wise Men. Reputedly they were first discovered by Saint Helena on her famous pilgrimage to Palestine and the Holy Lands. She took the remains to the church of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople; they were later moved to Milan (some sources say by the city's bishop, Eustorgius I^[61]), before being sent to their current resting place by the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick I in 1164. The Milanese celebrate their part in the tradition by holding a medieval costume parade every 6 January.

A version of the detailed elaboration familiar to us is laid out by the 14th-century cleric John of Hildesheim's Historia Trium Regum ("History of the Three Kings"). In accounting for the presence in Cologne of their mummified relics, he begins with the journey of Helena, the mother of Constantine I to Jerusalem, where she recovered the True Cross and other relics:

Queen Helen… began to think greatly of the bodies of these three kings, and she arrayed herself, and accompanied by many attendants, went into the Land of Ind… after she had found the bodies of Melchior, Balthazar, and Gaspar, Queen Helen put them into one chest and ornamented it with great riches, and she brought them into Constantinople... and laid them in a church that is called Saint Sophia.

I am extremely dubious of all customs about the magi - especially those which arose by the sponsorship of the state Church hundreds of years later. The Romans were very reluctant to grant any credence to their enemies to the east, and hence we are left with the mystical idea of Zoroastrian priests coming from some unknown land to the east because they expect a new king. While it is true the Parthians may have been somewhat unhappy with their Parthian king at the time, they would have had no reason to look elsewhere for a king. The visiting magi had to be those intimately familiar with the Jewish prophecies, and perhaps awaiting their time to be able to return to the holy land under a benign Parthian rule, although notions of a prophesied king may have appealed to the Parthians of the time as well. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the Parthians were literate enough to be intimately familiar with Jewish prophecies without the direct influence of Jews or Hebrews. 

That's about the best I can do for who these Magi were. However, the notion of three does comport with the order of heaven and is seen in the current presidencies of the Church, the three Nephites, etc.

[JLHPROF]

3 Nephi 1:3

[nuclearfuels]

24 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I'm afraid I am not going to be a terribly lot of help. The story of the Magi has been probably lost to history except for in Matthew for several reasons. To understand better though, I think it important to understand the history of the Parthians somewhat. I am wondering where you  got this location Saba? The name Parthian comes from the province of Parthia on the east of the Caspian Sea. The Parthians were a semi-nomadic people who were expert horsemen. They rebelled against the Seleucid Empire set up by one of four generals of Alexander the Great who split up his empire. Upon defeating the Seleucids, they built a new capitol named Ctesiphon in the region of Babylon, which was essentially a ruined city. It is believed the Zoroastrian religion began in the region of Parthia, and spread with the Parthians when they became rulers. The word magi comes from the Greek word Magos, which is attested from the fifth century B.C.E. as a direct loan from the term maguš, which is a Persian word from an Indo-Iranian root *magh, "powerful, rich." According to the Greek writer Herodotus, the word magos was held by aristocrats of the Median nation and specifically to Zoroastrian astronomer-priests. In Herodotus' writings, the term magos usually referred to a member of the tribe of the Medes (1.101) who could interpret dreams (7.37). This harkens back to Daniel in Babylon. The "lost tribes" had been settled in the region of Media by the Assyrians, and may have gained prominence as Magi under the rule of the Parthians. The Median magi had actually revolted against Darius. With the spread of Hellenism under Greek rule, magos started to be used as an adjective, meaning "magical." The Zoroastrian keepers of the eternal flame became the Magi of the Parthian religion, Zoroastrianism. The Parthians elected their kings from a council. This council was probably considered Magi("The powerful") by the Parthian people. Unfortunately, much about the Parthian Empire is lost to history. The Parthians themselves were apparently not very literate. They were hated by the Romans as a threat from the East, and the Persians would later have little incentive to preserve their history when they reconquered the empire. What little we know we owe mainly to the Greek historians. 

The Parthians were a tolerant ruling class essentially. They did not try to impose their religion, and subjects who supported them were free to rise in the ranks of the military and their society. Were the wise men in Matthew Zoroastrian? That is doubtful. They were either Jews who had remained in the region of Babylon or descendants of the ten tribes who had become familiar with the Book of Daniel from those Jews. Modern readers get the idea that all the Jews returned to Jerusalem after the Babylonian  diaspora. This is far from reality. Josephus tells us that upon the return of the Jews there were not enough priests to fill all the courses of service set up by David, so the priests had to temporarily serve more than their traditional two courses during the 24 courses of the year. The numbers he gives indicate that about 1/6 of the priests returned. It is reasonable to conclude that the numbers for the rest of the Jewish population were similar, although we don't know how many may have trickled back after Jerusalem was rebuilt. This leaves a large Jewish population back in the land of Babylon, as well as probably a large portion of the lost tribes. The Messiah (the anointed) of Daniel was expected by the Jews during the reign of the Maccabees. The Maccabees actually made an alliance with the Parthians, who conquered eastern Syria from the Romans for a short time under the rule of Herod. So Herod wanted nothing to do with these Magi from the Parthian Empire, and would have been quite alarmed by any talk of a prophesied king to rise among the Jews. The time was right, but the Jews were expecting someone to save them from Herod's despotic and oppressive rule, rather than someone who would supplant their need for the Mosaic law. The time was right, so Magi Hebrews from the east who were familiar with the prophecies came to see the fulfillment of those prophecies. They were not some curious Zoroastrian priests....

Although the region you indicate was the land of Media, I am curious as to why you start with Saba and end at Bethlehem of Galilee rather than Bethlehem.

 

 

I am extremely dubious of all customs about the magi - especially those which arose by the sponsorship of the state Church hundreds of years later. The Romans were very reluctant to grant any credence to their enemies to the east, and hence we are left with the mystical idea of Zoroastrian priests coming from some unknown land to the east because they expect a new king. While it is true the Parthians may have been somewhat unhappy with their Parthian king at the time, they would have had no reason to look elsewhere for a king. The visiting magi had to be those intimately familiar with the Jewish prophecies, and perhaps awaiting their time to be able to return to the holy land under a benign Parthian rule, although notions of a prophesied king may have appealed to the Parthians of the time as well. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the Parthians were literate enough to be intimately familiar with Jewish prophecies without the direct influence of Jews or Hebrews. 

That's about the best I can do for who these Magi were. However, the notion of three does comport with the order of heaven and is seen in the current presidencies of the Church, the three Nephites, etc.

That was incredibly helpful.

Thank you!

I started w/ Saba becuase it was in Wikipedia. I'm sorry...I'm weak. what can I say? :) 

 Perhaps in a nutshell then, the First Presidency of a Quorum of Twelve Disciples (not Apostles), used Abrahamic-inspired astronomy and Old Testament Jewish prophecies to bring tributes to the Messiah. 

Would you agree/disagree with the idea that the gifts they brought (myrrh for the burial of the dead) indicate they knew the Messiah would one day be slain for the sins of the world?

[longview]

It is interesting that the Wise Men came directly to Jerusalem to inquire of the Promised Messiah.  They apparently were not aware of the prophecies concerning Bethlehem of Judea.  If they had, they would have gotten intimations of the coming slaughter of little children there.  On the other hand, they most likely had their own records (scriptures) that foretold explicit signs for the Birth of the Savior similar to (but not necessarily identical to) Samuel the Lamanite of the New World.  Their records may have come from prophets in their part of the world but both the records and the prophets were lost to history.  Just as happened to Zenos and Zenock and others.  Did the Judeans, the shepherds of the flocks and other people in Israel notice the "New Star" and understand the sign?  Probably not.

[Ahab]

This is part or a story I have shared by email with some of my family for the Christmas season.  I didn't cite the references for this information when I wrote it but you can find references on the internet:

This story begins about 2600 years ago, with a man named Daniel. 

Daniel lived in a city named Jerusalem when that city was conquered by a king named Nebuchadnezzar with his army from his kingdom named Babylonia.  Daniel was a teenager then, and he was among other people who were taken as captive prisoners to Babylon, the capital city of Babylonia.  While there Daniel became a friend to king Nebuchadnezzar, and one of his most trusted men.

About 50 years later, Babylonia was conquered by another king named Cyrus with his army from his kingdom named Persia.  When Cyrus entered Babylon he was welcomed by many of its citizens, including the former citizens of Jerusalem, including Daniel.  At this time most of western Asia was united into the empire of Persia, which included the kingdom formerly named Media.

One day Daniel gave Cyrus a personal letter from a prophet of God named Isaiah who had written it a few hundred years earlier.  In that letter Isaiah mentioned Cyrus by name, and called him the Lord’s anointed one.  The Lord had said through Isaiah that Cyrus would redeem all of Israel and rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, and Cyrus did what the Lord said he would do.

King Cyrus later died and the throne was then succeeded by another man who was named Darius.  Darius got to know Daniel and also trusted him as Cyrus did, appointing him to be the leader of a group of people called the Magi.  The Magi were the people who gave advice to the current king and anointed succeeding kings of Persia while giving gifts to the person they anointed as the new king.

When Daniel became the leader of the Magi, all of the other Magi were from the kingdom of Media, and the fact that Daniel was an Israelite was upsetting to them.  They wanted to get rid of Daniel, and appoint another leader, so they devised a plan to get rid of Daniel.  Daniel had faith in his God, however, and often received revelations from him, so God protected Daniel from the plan of the Magi while also turning their own plan against them.

With those Magi now dead, Daniel appointed other people to be Magi while teaching them what God had taught him, and these teachings were passed down to other Magi in succession who continued to teach what Daniel taught.  And it came to pass about 400 years later that some of these Magi traveled through the land of Judea while bearing gifts to a new king in the land of Judea who had just been born, named Jesus.

… to be continued

Edited December 10, 2019 by Ahab

[Ahab]

A Christmas Story, part 2

Also at about that same time (about 400 years after Daniel) there was a man named Joachim and his wife named Anna.  They didn’t have any children, and they really wanted a child, so they often asked God to bless them while promising God that if He would bless them they would devote the child to His service.

One day they went to a feast at the temple. The high priest at that time, a man named Issachar, knew about Joachim and Anna and had a problem with them because they didn’t have children.  He said they and their offerings were not acceptable to the Lord, and that, until they were, they were not to come back to the temple of God in Jerusalem.

Joachim and Anna were troubled about that and left the temple not knowing how to resolve their problem, since they were already trying to have children.  Joachim then searched the records of the tribes of Israel to see if what the priest had done could be supported by the counsel of God, but he didn’t find any record from any righteous men in Israel who had never given birth to children.  This only added to his troubles, and made him want help even more, so he went out into the wilderness to fast and to pray.  He resolved that he wouldn’t come back from the wilderness until the Lord had answered him, personally, telling him what he should do. 

After forty days and nights an angel of God appeared to him.  At first Joachim was startled, but soon he relaxed.  The angel assured him he was sent by God with a message, saying his prayers had been heard, and his offerings had been accepted.  He had been unjustly reproached by the high priest.  The angel told him that God is the avenger of sin, not of nature, and that his wife, Anna, had been barren for a purpose, as other great women had been.  The angel assured him that his wife would give birth to a child who they should devote to service of God, and that they should give their child, who would be a girl, the name of Mary.

 The angel then told Joachim to return to Jerusalem, and as a sign that what he had told him was true, he said that when he arrived at the golden gates of Jerusalem, he would find his wife Anna standing there waiting for him.  The angel then left Joachim and he returned to Jerusalem.

During this time Anna was extremely worried that her husband might not ever come back.  One afternoon while tending to her garden she knelt under a tree and asked God to bless them both with safety, and, again, for a child.  While praying to God, the same angel appeared to Anna, telling her the same things he had told her husband.  The angel then told her to go to the golden gates of Jerusalem and there she would find her husband who would be looking for her.

… to be continued

[Ahab]

A Christmas Story, continued, part 3

Eventually Anna gave birth and Joachim named their daughter according to instructions of the angel.  After three years Mary was old enough to leave her mother, so her parents brought her to the temple and dedicated her to the service of God.  Mary was placed in the care of the priests who were at the temple and brought up to be pure and undefiled.  Mary’s parents still visited her on occasions, and while at the temple, Mary learned a lot about God.

As customary in Israel, young women got married when they reached the 14^th year of their age, but Mary’s parents had told her some more about what the angel had told them and Mary promised to do what her parents told her.

The high priest at that time was a man named Zacharias, and he was an uncle of Mary.  He also knew the angel’s story, and the promise Mary made, so he entered the holy of holies to ask the Lord what to do. 

He was told to summon all the eligible men to the temple with their staffs, and at the appropriate place he would ask them to stretch forth their staffs.   The spirit of God, which would be in the form of a dove, would then rest on the man that God had chosen as a husband for Mary.

Among these eligible bachelors was a man named Joseph. He was older, a widower, and very nervous.  When all the men were later asked to stretch forth their staff, Joseph chose to keep his own staff held back. 

Zacharias was confused.  He did not see the sign of the spirit of God come down and rest on any staffs of the men.  He went back into the holy of holies to consult with the Lord some more, and God then told him that the man had not stretched forth his staff.  Zacharias then went back to the men and asked who among them had not stretched forth his staff, as told, and Joseph then said that it was him.  He then asked Joseph to come forth and stretch forth his staff again, and as he did the spirit of God rested on him in the form of a dove, and Zacharias saw it.

Shortly afterwards they proceeded with the betrothal ceremonies, and then Joseph returned to his city to get his house ready for Mary, while making the necessary arrangements for his marriage ceremony where he would marry Mary.

 

There is more to the story, I divided it into 12 parts, but I don't want to detract too much from this thread.

[nuclearfuels]

1 hour ago, longview said:

It is interesting that the Wise Men came directly to Jerusalem to inquire of the Promised Messiah.  They apparently were not aware of the prophecies concerning Bethlehem of Judea.  If they had, they would have gotten intimations of the coming slaughter of little children there.  On the other hand, they most likely had their own records (scriptures) that foretold explicit signs for the Birth of the Savior similar to (but not necessarily identical to) Samuel the Lamanite of the New World.  Their records may have come from prophets in their part of the world but both the records and the prophets were lost to history.  Just as happened to Zenos and Zenock and others.  Did the Judeans, the shepherds of the flocks and other people in Israel notice the "New Star" and understand the sign?  Probably not.

Excellent point.

Do you think the lost scriptures liek from the Lost Tribes would have that or would the apocrypha or pseudipigraphia have Wise Men writings, other than this:

(https://www.google.com/search?q=syriac+gospel+of+the+Wise+Men&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS866US866&source=lnms&tbm=shop&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiq1r7X2KvmAhVhplkKHeT4DiAQ_AUoA3oECA0QBQ&biw=1615&bih=881#spd=5016048011426604981)?   

If I was answering that question, I'd say: yes.   (both)

[nuclearfuels]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

There is more to the story, I divided it into 12 parts, but I don't want to detract too much from this thread.

Thanks @Ahab!  Can you post the link to your source? I'd love to read more

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thanks @Ahab!  Can you post the link to your source? I'd love to read more

I didn't copy where I found the information, or if I did I edited it out as I put it in a Word document.  As I said in my first post in this thread the information can be found on the internet. I searched for "magi kingdom of Media" just now and found out that is still there.

I'll attach a copy of the Word document here: 

It's been a while since I last sent this to my family because I don't use email very much anymore, but it was fun to share it when I did, starting 12 days before Christmas.

birth of our Savior.doc

[nuclearfuels]

22 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Christmas.

Thanks @Ahab!  

[mfbukowski]

All I can tell you is that I have studied Zoroastrianism a fair amount and I am nearly certain that it is an apostate dispensation of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and that is why they had the prophecies about the birth of Christ etc.

We can make it crudely about "sun worship" but if one sees that as the Light of Christ and similarities we have with the light of the sun, moon, and stars representing degrees of glory etc, along with their "endowment" ceremonies which very much are similar to our ceremonies, it becomes clear to me that there are too many parallels for it all to be coincidence or just features common to all religions.

If we believe in Nephites having the gospel, we know that there are other books and other tribes/nationalities that could well also have had their own dispensations, and I am convinced this is one.

Study up a little on the Parsis and other Zorastrian groups and their practices/beliefs and you will be astounded.  Their main scripture is the Avesta.

 

http://www.avesta.org/ritual/navjote.htm

They also have an investiture ceremony in which they receive a piece of clothing to be worn for life

They believe in a Messiah (actually 3 "messiahs" - dispensations?) who will come before the final war between good and evil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saoshyant

They only marry within their own faith- paralleling perhaps our custom of being sealed within our temple

They have a "layered " Priesthood consisting of three different levels

And many other parallels

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by mfbukowski

[nuclearfuels]

24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

All I can tell you is that I have studied Zoroastrianism a fair amount and I am nearly certain that it is an apostate dispensation of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and that is why they had the prophecies about the birth of Christ etc.

Thanks Bukowski. I think all of us will be incredibly surprised at teh Second Coming or when we die, adn see how much overlap of true doctrine has occurred in history.  

Like, reincarnation - how else would you explain progression from Intelligence to spirit body then add a physical body, then that physical part dies, then you progress, then you rejoin your physical boyd but it's perfected, but then you ocontiue progressing.  Seems like the truth of eternal progressionw as taught but then diluted over time

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thanks Bukowski. I think all of us will be incredibly surprised at teh Second Coming or when we die, adn see how much overlap of true doctrine has occurred in history.  

Like, reincarnation - how else would you explain progression from Intelligence to spirit body then add a physical body, then that physical part dies, then you progress, then you rejoin your physical boyd but it's perfected, but then you ocontiue progressing.  Seems like the truth of eternal progressionw as taught but then diluted over time

Yeah, a messed up version of what really happens... perhaps due simply to a misunderstanding or just a bad choice of words when trying to retell the story of what really happens. 

It was just a misunderstanding!  Sheesh!  I'm just not very good with words or at telling stories!  Sorry!

 

[mfbukowski]

29 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thanks Bukowski. I think all of us will be incredibly surprised at teh Second Coming or when we die, adn see how much overlap of true doctrine has occurred in history.  

Like, reincarnation - how else would you explain progression from Intelligence to spirit body then add a physical body, then that physical part dies, then you progress, then you rejoin your physical boyd but it's perfected, but then you ocontiue progressing.  Seems like the truth of eternal progressionw as taught but then diluted over time

Oh absolutely!

And on the other hand when you see clearly all the variations around the single theme, you stop worrying about the little details.

Studying Zoroastrianism (Zarathustraism)  for me was like a light bulb coming on when I saw all the parallels with LDS beliefs.  It was a chief component of my INTELLECTUAL- as opposed to spiritual- conversion because I realized that every aspect of LDS belief has VERY ANCIENT roots, regardless of people worrying about Book of Mormon and BOA historicity etc.

Joseph I am convinced could have been one of the "messiahs" of Zoroastrianism - IF one is a Zoroastrian Mormon 

as I am

And then you throw in Nietzsche's Zarathustra?

Are you kidding me?   Man- I was cooked. 

Please baptize me ASAP 

"Thus Spoke Zarathustra."  No kidding!

Edited December 10, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Durangout]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

3 Nephi 1:3

I think what you’re suggesting here is highly unlikely.  What I think this verse is cleverly  saying w/o saying it is that he was translated.

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, Durangout said:

I think what you’re suggesting here is highly unlikely.  What I think this verse is cleverly  saying w/o saying it is that he was translated.

I like to be translated.  I do it in my house with my wife, sometimes, for fun.

[rpn]

You may have heard of the research currently being done on Lehi's journey through Arabia to Nahum where he built the ship to come to the Americas.   Seems likely that he shared the prophecies in the right area during that journey.

[RevTestament]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

All I can tell you is that I have studied Zoroastrianism a fair amount and I am nearly certain that it is an apostate dispensation of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and that is why they had the prophecies about the birth of Christ etc.

We can make it crudely about "sun worship" but if one sees that as the Light of Christ and similarities we have with the light of the sun, moon, and stars representing degrees of glory etc, along with their "endowment" ceremonies which very much are similar to our ceremonies, it becomes clear to me that there are too many parallels for it all to be coincidence or just features common to all religions.

If we believe in Nephites having the gospel, we know that there are other books and other tribes/nationalities that could well also have had their own dispensations, and I am convinced this is one.

Study up a little on the Parsis and other Zorastrian groups and their practices/beliefs and you will be astounded.  Their main scripture is the Avesta.

 

http://www.avesta.org/ritual/navjote.htm

They also have an investiture ceremony in which they receive a piece of clothing to be worn for life

They believe in a Messiah (actually 3 "messiahs" - dispensations?) who will come before the final war between good and evil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saoshyant

They only marry within their own faith- paralleling perhaps our custom of being sealed within our temple

They have a "layered " Priesthood consisting of three different levels

And many other parallels

 

Both Zoroastrianism and Buddhism seem to have roots around the beginning of the Persian Empire under Cyrus the Great. I believe it is quite probable that Zarathustra and Buddha were influenced by Hebrews/Jews in Iran and heavily borrowed ideas of truth from the Hebrew scriptures. As you note the similarities are striking. However, the beginnings of Zoroastrianism are so steeped in mystery, that it seems to defy an accurate idea of its origins. However, it seemed to emanate from the area of the later Parthian province, so I take it to be a Parthian version of the Hebrew religion - somewhat like Islam tries to be for the Ishmaelites.

If you can add to my knowledge of the origins of Zoroastrianism, I would be grateful. 

[Durangout]

20 hours ago, Ahab said:

I like to be translated.  I do it in my house with my wife, sometimes, for fun.

You’ll have to explain that one.

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, Durangout said:

You’ll have to explain that one.

Only if you show me the appropriate signs and tokens, when appropriate.

[RevTestament]

On 12/10/2019 at 9:15 AM, nuclearfuels said:

That was incredibly helpful.

Thank you!

I started w/ Saba becuase it was in Wikipedia. I'm sorry...I'm weak. what can I say?

 Perhaps in a nutshell then, the First Presidency of a Quorum of Twelve Disciples (not Apostles), used Abrahamic-inspired astronomy and Old Testament Jewish prophecies to bring tributes to the Messiah. 

Would you agree/disagree with the idea that the gifts they brought (myrrh for the burial of the dead) indicate they knew the Messiah would one day be slain for the sins of the world?

I imagine they knew little more than the Jews did. It was a process of interpreting the scriptures they had, as to what they understood. Did they understand the sacrifice of the Passover lamb less literally than the Jews? I don't know. Why gifts? Because that is what you did for kings in order to establish a good relationship. Whether they understood Yeshua would die for us is somewhat doubtful. The gifts, however, I am sure were helpful to Yeshua's family during their forced emigration to Egypt until Herod died.

Daniel 9 does mention the Messiah being "cut off" but that does not necessarily mean being killed. It is used other ways in Hebrew scripture. As for them showing up in Jerusalem to inquire - that shows they were not following some angel appearing as a star, or some supernatural object in the sky leading them straight to Yeshua. I believe the star was a conjunction of the "king star" with Venus in the evening sky to create a "new star" brighter than any other in the sky - essentially the same they had seen in the east, which they took to be a recurrence of the sign.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Both Zoroastrianism and Buddhism seem to have roots around the beginning of the Persian Empire under Cyrus the Great. I believe it is quite probable that Zarathustra and Buddha were influenced by Hebrews/Jews in Iran and heavily borrowed ideas of truth from the Hebrew scriptures. As you note the similarities are striking. However, the beginnings of Zoroastrianism are so steeped in mystery, that it seems to defy an accurate idea of its origins. However, it seemed to emanate from the area of the later Parthian province, so I take it to be a Parthian version of the Hebrew religion - somewhat like Islam tries to be for the Ishmaelites.

If you can add to my knowledge of the origins of Zoroastrianism, I would be grateful. 

Unfortunately I really can't. I'm not much of a fan of history or how it is relevant for religious ideas. But a Zoroastrian would tell you that you have the correct basic idea but have switched the true father of all monotheistic religions, and that was Zoroastrianism.

They view Judaism and Christianity as apostate versions of their perfect truth.

Ironic huh?