Blacklisted BYU - The Politicization of Academia/Science Continues Apace

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

When do we start issuing the uniforms, Comrade Smith? The deadline is getting close, please check on those shipments. 

Yep, the unisex clothing will help us all be one, Comrade Bukowski.

[LoudmouthMormon]

8 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Well you can reword what BYU does, too: "We foster righteousness by excluding people who love and are committed via marriage to a person of the same sex." 

Close.  "We preach a certain brand of behavior, and you must agree to abide by our standards to be part of it".

One is nonhypocritical, transparent discrimination.  The other is doublespeak, politically-correct, and self-contradicting.  Whiplash inducing for the reasonable person.  I mean, if they ditched the diversity language and just went with something like "we don't want anything to do with people who discriminate based on sexual preference", at least they would be intellectually honest and consistent.

Our culture is a few years past a crossroads.  The minority calls for equality, inclusion, diversity.  LGBT support has been in the minority until around 10 years ago, when they gained majority support.  Just these ignorant folks never got the memo, so they sound stupid. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

,,,,,,,,,,,

Whatsamatter?  Cat got your tongue, Provoman?   

[Amulek]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

In my view, you make tolerance and love out to be a tactic? 

Well, yeah. But, if you prefer, please feel free to substitute "tactic" with "persuasion strategy" or something like "method of persuasion" instead. 

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yep, the unisex clothing will help us all be one, Comrade Bukowski.

There have been some complaints about clothes not fitting different body types,  but that is simply a another necessary sacrifice for full Equality.   Selfish concerns must be eliminated, and be shown to be incorrect and against the Collective.  The fallacy of gender differences promotes the incorrect belief in individualism against True Equality and is clearly revisionist.

Perhaps we should enforce Equality by insisting on the surgical correction of all gender differences, thereby eliminating selfish concerns.  If this discrimination continues to divide us, it must be eliminated, and even surgically if necessary.

These mistaken ideas only lead to strife and division, and are logically incorrect.

And then we have the continued discrimination against people whose appearance standards evoke individualistic praise or blame for being good looking or others who are considered to look imperfect to others.  Surgical correction for a more uniform facial structure and skin color might be necessary, if the re-education program proves ineffective.

Edited November 16, 2019 by mfbukowski

[california boy]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A pluralistic society celebrates diversity, not by requiring conformity of all its parts, but through mutual respect for that real diversity.  Neighbors may not accept as normative their various diverse behaviors, but neither should they persecute each other.  We have made a real effort in America to respect the diverse groups of which it is composed. 

Would you require the Amish to give up their unique ways and beliefs?  Should we demand that the ultra-orthodox Jews of Crown Heights give up their odd behaviors and beliefs?  They and other groups are certainly exclusionary.  Must they all be leveled to one common denominator in all ways and in all respects so as to be considered fellow citizens?  Would that still be pluralism?  Does it even matter?

No one is asking BYU to give up their religious beliefs.  What they are saying is that BYU can no longer advertise jobs that discriminate against any gay person in their organizations who is in a marriage or a gay person who wants to date..  It is BYU that is discriminating and the other groups are unwilling to participate in that discrimination that excludes some of its members.  I personally don't support discrimination in the marketplace.  And you know there would be a huge uproar amongst some on this board if they came across a professional organization that refused to hire Mormons.

BYU can do whatever it wants.  It also has to live with the consequences of its discrimination policies.  I would hope this policy extends to other groups that discriminate against their members.  As far as pluralism, who needs to include a group that discriminates, especially if that is a value the group rejects.

[Kenngo1969]

27 minutes ago, california boy said:

No one is asking BYU to give up their religious beliefs.  What they are saying is that BYU can no longer advertise jobs that discriminate against any gay person in their organizations who is in a marriage or a gay person who wants to date..  It is BYU that is discriminating and the other groups are unwilling to participate in that discrimination that excludes some of its members.  I personally don't support discrimination in the marketplace.  And you know there would be a huge uproar amongst some on this board if they came across a professional organization that refused to hire Mormons.

BYU can do whatever it wants.  It also has to live with the consequences of its discrimination policies.  I would hope this policy extends to other groups that discriminate against their members.  As far as pluralism, who needs to include a group that discriminates, especially if that is a value the group rejects.

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm certainly convinced of the manifest error of my ways.     Amazing that that's all it took! Thanks!

Edited November 16, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[Storm Rider]

39 minutes ago, california boy said:

No one is asking BYU to give up their religious beliefs.  What they are saying is that BYU can no longer advertise jobs that discriminate against any gay person in their organizations who is in a marriage or a gay person who wants to date..  It is BYU that is discriminating and the other groups are unwilling to participate in that discrimination that excludes some of its members.  I personally don't support discrimination in the marketplace.  And you know there would be a huge uproar amongst some on this board if they came across a professional organization that refused to hire Mormons.

BYU can do whatever it wants.  It also has to live with the consequences of its discrimination policies.  I would hope this policy extends to other groups that discriminate against their members.  As far as pluralism, who needs to include a group that discriminates, especially if that is a value the group rejects.

Oh pleeze, our society has never been one that each citizen was required to have the identical beliefs and ways of thinking. To the contrary, prior to the Gay Gestapo's arrival on the scene, we respected the different peoples, different cultures, and different religions. 

Given your answer, I wonder what society would actually look like if everyone group acted in the same way? Nope, you cannot be here because you don't think like I do. No, you cannot attend school here because you are not identical to a specific group. 

The pendulum swings and it always has. When this begins to swing back, my advice is there will not be a closet to hide in - run. The GG has created a monster that will eat them. Another group will come and they will demand that all think like them and they will conflict with the GG and so it goes. 

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, Storm Rider said:

To the contrary, prior to the Gay Gestapo's arrival on the scene, we respected the different peoples, different cultures, and different religions. 

I'm not at all weighing in on the topic of this thread or any issue dealing with with homosexuality, but the bolded statement above is blatantly false to anyone who has a cursory knowledge of American history.

America was not this perfect place where everyone got along with everyone else despite any and all differences until the gays showed up. Geez, man, grab a history book! The further back you go in time in America, the less respect you find for different people, for different cultures, for different religions.

Your religion is a grand example of that. Look how America treats you now, and look how you were treated back in Joseph Smith's day.

Even my religion is an example. Look at some of the controversy around JFK being Catholic back in the early '60s. That wouldn't happen today.

Please retract your clearly false statement.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Amulek said:

I think that part of the reason for this is due to how the gay rights movement was marshaled. Instead of only focusing on love and tolerance, the tactic that turned out to be most effective was essentially, 'you are either with us or you are a bigot.' And, regrettably, that mindset has persisted even as the battle has been won. And the oppressed now seek to be the oppressors. 

 

You may be right that these attitudes stem from the beginning of the gay rights movement when religion, particularly the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints went after their civil rights.  When a group is willing to do that, then it is hard to throttle back tolerance for those organizations.  There is indeed a deep divide between organized religion and the LGBT community.  

But let's remind ourselves why that divide is there.  It didn't just happen out of thin air.  Think about all the things religion has done to the LGBT community including forced reparative therapy, electric shock treatment, shunning of gay members, excommunicating them from the religion they believed in, spending millions to take away their civil rights, pursuing legal cases to allow for legal discrimination, And that doesn't even address the view that they are evil, an abomination, and all the other going to hell references.  

Religion has not given the LGBT community much common ground, especially at the beginning of the movement.  They found that the only tact that works is hitting back aggressively.  I think that has been the mindset of a lot of activists every since.

[Robert F. Smith]

59 minutes ago, california boy said:

No one is asking BYU to give up their religious beliefs.  What they are saying is that BYU can no longer advertise jobs that discriminate against any gay person in their organizations who is in a marriage or a gay person who wants to date..  It is BYU that is discriminating and the other groups are unwilling to participate in that discrimination that excludes some of its members.  I personally don't support discrimination in the marketplace.  And you know there would be a huge uproar amongst some on this board if they came across a professional organization that refused to hire Mormons.

BYU can do whatever it wants.  It also has to live with the consequences of its discrimination policies.  I would hope this policy extends to other groups that discriminate against their members.  As far as pluralism, who needs to include a group that discriminates, especially if that is a value the group rejects.

The odd thing is that we lionize people with "discriminating" taste, whether in music, food, or whatever.  However, there is, as they say, "no accounting for taste."  So, someone may have strong preferences in film, books, humor, and the like, which may differ with yours.  If that person can verbalize convincing reasons for particular preferences, we might not condemn but admire their taste.  Or we may define them as bullies. Today we often seek to shut down anyone whose opinions disagree with ours.  There can be no room or allowance for discrimination we don't like.  Diversity is alright only as long as it matches our special preferences.

What the woke people are saying is that such discrimination is wrong and will not be tolerated.  Unless, of course, it is a minority racial or gender-specific group at school (an integrated school, mind you) who refuse to sit in classrooms or the dining hall with those of any other race or gender.  Why the self-segregation?  Why the hate and vilification toward those who don't look like us, and who might not share our opinions?  Well, after all, we have the ultimate truth, and certainly don't need to hear any contrary opinions.

Consequently, the Mormons must be punished or isolated.  And not only the Mormons, but also the Jews and Buddhists, and the Amish.  We need to teach them a lesson, so that they will give up their quaint and false beliefs and practices.  We have such a brave new world.  How could anyone have any other opinion?  It is just so obvious.

[california boy]

27 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Oh pleeze, our society has never been one that each citizen was required to have the identical beliefs and ways of thinking. To the contrary, prior to the Gay Gestapo's arrival on the scene, we respected the different peoples, different cultures, and different religions. 

I am a little confused.  Are you chastising me because I believe BYU has the right to discriminate.  Or are you chastising me because ASU has the right to not work with organizations that go against their moral principles?

27 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Given your answer, I wonder what society would actually look like if everyone group acted in the same way? Nope, you cannot be here because you don't think like I do. No, you cannot attend school here because you are not identical to a specific group. 

I think that is called BYU.   if you are not like the rest of the people that attend BYU and chose to marry someone you are actually attracted to and want to spend your life with, you are not allowed to attend school there.  It seems to work for them.

27 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

The pendulum swings and it always has. When this begins to swing back, my advice is there will not be a closet to hide in - run. The GG has created a monster that will eat them. Another group will come and they will demand that all think like them and they will conflict with the GG and so it goes. 

Yeah, discriminate is only a fashionable value.  It has been over a half of century when we decided to stop that practice.  Of course much less time since the Church decided to quit discriminating at least against one group.

I honestly don't understand why members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints feel uncomfortable with discrimination against gay couples.  After all, isn't that what God wants?  What is odd is they don't think any other group should be allowed to discriminate unless it is against gay couples as well.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

There have been some complaints about clothes not fitting different body types,  but that is simply a another necessary sacrifice for full Equality.   Selfish concerns must be eliminated, and be shown to be incorrect and against the Collective.  The fallacy of gender differences promotes the incorrect belief in individualism against True Equality and is clearly revisionist.

Perhaps we should enforce Equality by insisting on the surgical correction of all gender differences, thereby eliminating selfish concerns.  If this discrimination continues to divide us, it must be eliminated, and even surgically if necessary.

These mistaken ideas only lead to strife and division, and are logically incorrect.

And then we have the continued discrimination against people whose appearance standards evoke individualistic praise or blame for being good looking or others who are considered to look imperfect to others.  Surgical correction for a more uniform facial structure and skin color might be necessary, if the re-education program proves ineffective.

There are a million noncomforming Uyghurs in forced reeducation and organ-harvesting programs just now in Xinjiang, China.  https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/06/18/china-killing-prisoners-to-harvest-organs-for-transplant-tribunal-finds/#1652acda53d4 .

[california boy]

12 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The odd thing is that we lionize people with "discriminating" taste, whether in music, food, or whatever.  However, there is, as they say, "no accounting for taste."  So, someone may have strong preferences in film, books, humor, and the like, which may differ with yours.  If that person can verbalize convincing reasons for particular preferences, we might not condemn but admire their taste.  Or we may define them as bullies. Today we often seek to shut down anyone whose opinions disagree with ours.  There can be no room or allowance for discrimination we don't like.  Diversity is alright only as long as it matches our special preferences.

What the woke people are saying is that such discrimination is wrong and will not be tolerated.  Unless, of course, it is a minority racial or gender-specific group at school (an integrated school, mind you) who refuse to sit in classrooms or the dining hall with those of any other race or gender.  Why the self-segregation?  Why the hate and vilification toward those who don't look like us, and who might not share our opinions?  Well, after all, we have the ultimate truth, and certainly don't need to hear any contrary opinions.

Consequently, the Mormons must be punished or isolated.  And not only the Mormons, but also the Jews and Buddhists, and the Amish.  We need to teach them a lesson, so that they will give up their quaint and false beliefs and practices.  We have such a brave new world.  How could anyone have any other opinion?  It is just so obvious.

Music, food whatever are not people.  That just might be the difference.  

And isn't ASU being punished for believing that gay couples should be able to hold a job?  We can't have any of those kind of people working at BYU.

Edited November 16, 2019 by california boy

[Robert F. Smith]

19 minutes ago, california boy said:

....................... hard to throttle back tolerance for those organizations.  There is indeed a deep divide between organized religion and the LGBT community.  

...................................  They found that the only tact that works is hitting back aggressively.  I think that has been the mindset of a lot of activists every since.

Gandhi and King didn't share that approach.  Thankfully.  Not every occasion is Stonewall, and not everybody is NYPD.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 minutes ago, california boy said:

Music, food whatever are not people.  That just might be the difference.  

And isn't ASU being punished for believing that gay couples should be able to hold a job?  We can't have any of those kind of people working at BYU.

We are not talking about food or essential oils, so that is not the difference.  The real effort is to exclude the Mormons completely, to deny them the right to play football with other schools, etc.  To remove them from society in all places and in all ways, until they conform to the demands of other groups.  In fact, that is Mormon history writ large on the American canvas -- because they practiced communism, and polygamy, they had to be destroyed.  Discrimination works both ways.

By the way, I think that universities and colleges should exclude intercollegiate sports.  They cost too much, and they detract from the real mission of educational institutions.  Guess what?  My opinion in that matter will be ignored.  But you already knew that.

[california boy]

I know the Church loves to play the victim and people on this board are trying to make up a narrative that others are some how trying to force the Church and BYU to change their religious beliefs.  But nowhere has anyone asked the Church to change any doctrine at all.  The Church is entitled to believe anything they want.  That is not the issue.  The issue is discrimination.  That is the objection.  

So here is the simple question.  Why can't BYU. hire someone who is in a gay relationship?  Why does that have to be part of the honor code for those employed by BYU.  Is it a requirement for any of the suppliers that the school works with?.  Why is the Church forcing it's religious ideology on its employees.  Does being gay affect how good of teacher you are? How good of scientist you are?  How good of coach you are?

It is not like if you are Mormon, you aren't allowed to have any interaction with someone who is gay.  And it is not like being gay is some kind of contagious disease that the students might catch.  Seriously, what would be the ramifications if BYU had a gay professor?  I get that BYU.is a religious school, but why does that dictate that everyone employed by the school must not be gay.  Is all ASU is asking is for BYU to not discriminate.  They are NOT asking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to change their religious beliefs.

[california boy]

24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Gandhi and King didn't share that approach.  Thankfully.  Not every occasion is Stonewall, and not everybody is NYPD.

Gandhi and King are individuals, not a mass of diverse people with differing views and opinions.  How can you possibly compare the two.

[california boy]

22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We are not talking about food or essential oils, so that is not the difference.  The real effort is to exclude the Mormons completely, to deny them the right to play football with other schools, etc.  To remove them from society in all places and in all ways, until they conform to the demands of other groups.  In fact, that is Mormon history writ large on the American canvas -- because they practiced communism, and polygamy, they had to be destroyed.  Discrimination works both ways.

By the way, I think that universities and colleges should exclude intercollegiate sports.  They cost too much, and they detract from the real mission of educational institutions.  Guess what?  My opinion in that matter will be ignored.  But you already knew that.

AGAIN Robert, you are just not getting it.  While people may disagree with Mormon theology, what they don't agree with is the discrimination practices of BYU. NO ONE is asking the Church to change it's theology before they will play football with them.  No one is asking the students of BYU to accept gay marriage.  They are asking that BYU quit discriminating .  Can you be an effective football player if you are gay?  Can you be an effective coach if you are gay?  Why does the Church have to force others to follow their theology before they can play football, or coach or teach or serve food, or wax floors.  

Edited November 16, 2019 by california boy

[katherine the great]

IIRC, this isn't about the society excluding BYU students or professors from membership. They simply yanked an ad from BYU because the professorship excluded married gay scientists from being considered for the position. I don't see what the big deal is.  If they start refusing membership to BYU graduates or professors I would say they have a huge problem,