sunstoned Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 This is very anecdotal, but in the early 1980's I had a student job at BYU. I drove a tow truck and towed illegally parked vehicles. I towed on average two to three per shift. All towed vehicles were taken to a compound and then inventoried. I was surprised and amazed at how many vehicles contained fire arms. What was troubling is that we could only inventory vehicles were unlocked. People drove around and parked on campus with guns in their cars, then they left them unlocked.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 On 10/14/2019 at 10:46 AM, randy said: .....................................For me, I will abide by the counsel of my leaders, but I feel these "active shooter protocols" are woefully inadequate to protect anyone in an attack. Texas State law allows churches to prohibit firearms on the premises, as long as they notify the public through the proper channels (announcement and signs)..
strappinglad Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 35 minutes ago, sunstoned said: People drove around and parked on campus with guns in their cars, then they left them unlocked. " you can't fix stupid "😪
Calm Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said: would be stupid to "put a gun in every classroom", because guns can be found. But if willing teachers/staff stepped up and armed themselves, the answer to your question is "almost zero students would get a hold of their teacher's gun". Because the mindset is "my gun is only one of four places. In the gun safe, in pieces being cleaned, secured on my person in a holster, or in my hands being used. There is no fifth place." There will always be careless humans that think they are safe so won't take the effort to properly secure their gun. I think if teachers are ever armed, then a condition is zero tolerance mishandling, as in immediately fired if shown to be careless with it. That would give sufficient motivation that it would be the rare teacher that screwed up, imo. I would hope mandatory additional training would take place as well. However, unless schools start getting sued for not protecting kids, I think most boards would be terrified of getting sued by a gun incident gone wrong...a teacher provoked in rage or is emotionally unstable to begin with and being able to kill students or other teachers due to the school allowing concealed carry. I think it more likely than arming teachers, they would hired security guards. Edited October 17, 2019 by Calm 1
The Nehor Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, randy said: "Depends, I know how to fight with fists but have no training with a gun. I prefer ten inches if they have a firearm." That's the point...you will never get within 10". I'm remembering that scene in one of those "Indiana Jones" movies where Indiana Jones is confronted by this really BIG guy with an even BIGGER sword. The bad guy makes some really threatening gestures with the sword, then Indiana Jones looks at him with a "really....seriously?" look on his face, and then just pulls out his pistol and shoots him. That's pretty much what we're talking about here. As the ole saying goes..."you don't bring a knife to a gun fight". You WILL LOSE! Every time! I would just add...get a gun, get trained....then get more training! Then when you're done with that.....get more training! I have a good chance of dying if I charge a shooter from across a room but I do not plan to. Hence why I suggested getting into a small room with a doorway with an obstacle. We are at close range and at that point a firearm, particularly a larger weapon, is a liability. It might not work. There are ways to kill me but most active shooters are not that bright or well trained. I have a decent chance. I do not want a gun. They are bulky to carry and you walk a legal minefield with it. I spent years training myself to fight without a weapon. Why focus on firearms training when I may not even have it when I need it? Plus the real risk of an accident even if I am careful and it is useless if I run out of ammo. I always have my arms and legs (if I no longer do I am pretty much dead in any case) and I am pretty good with a knife and have one if I need it and have trained to evade someone with a firearm (unless they are good or lucky) and I have a good chance to disarm or kill them if I am close enough. It is not foolproof but nothing is. Again, this is based on me keeping my head. I might be on the floor in the fetal position urinating in fear. I hope not but I am not sure. I like to think the training would prevent that but only way to find out is to be in the crisis situation. In Temple of Doom Indy provided a counterpoint where they parodied the scene when two Thuggee swordsman show off and he tries to casually dispatch them only to remember he lost his gun earlier. Fun fact though. The original script for the scene you referenced had a drawn out fight but Harrison Ford had dysentery and was exhausted from the Tunisian heat and felt he could not do the scene and suggested Indy just shoot the guy so he could rush to the washroom. Spielberg agreed. In some versions of the story Spielberg planned to reshoot later but fell in love with the humor and just kept it. Edited October 17, 2019 by The Nehor
Bernard Gui Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: To be honest this all sounds terrifying and terrible. Truly. It’s my understanding that about 20 people die per year in school shootings in the US every year. Honest question. If you put a gun in every classroom (or a significant percentage) around the country (3.8 million public school teachers), would this number go up or down do you think? I think it might go down because the evil doers would no longer have so many soft targets. It is possible they would move on to other venues. On the other hand, if they don’t have plans to survive the attack, maybe they wouldn’t care. Quote How many students that otherwise wouldn’t have access to a gun might get a hold of their teachers? I live a somewhat charmed life, but the only victim of gun violence that I know was killed by her sister who was handling her dads “unloaded” firearm. My honest answer....I don’t know. Keeping weapons in a safe in the room is one possibility. Our schools now have locked doors with photo/camera entry controlled by the office. A determined bad guy could overcome that without too much effort. Trying to identify problem kids before they act is getting more emphasis. I honestly don’t know if this can be eliminated. Murder is in the heart. 2
Bernard Gui Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 45 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Again, this is based on me keeping my head. I might be on the floor in the fetal position urinating in fear. I hope not but I am not sure. I like to think the training would prevent that but only way to find out is to be in the crisis situation. I was very surprised by my reaction in our school lockdown situation. Edited October 17, 2019 by Bernard Gui
Vedrfolnyr Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 So does this mean that the church leadership is going to give up their personal, armed security? I mean what's good for the goose is good for the gander right? There have been four members killed at church in the last ten years. So by my simple calculations the members are at a much greater need for protection than the leaders. I guess my wife and kids are of less value than the Nelson's and Bednars.
LoudmouthMormon Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Calm said: I think most boards would be terrified of getting sued by a gun incident gone wrong...a teacher provoked in rage or is emotionally unstable to begin with and being able to kill students or other teachers due to the school allowing concealed carry. Again, as more and more decade-long or longer studies on CCP holders emerge, the only way you can stay terrified about this, is by sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalalala no I won't read the data". Millions of permit holders carrying millions of guns in thousands of cities in millions of jobs, and we just don't hear anything beyond the occasional anecdote of anyone ending up provoked into a rage. Permit holders commit violent crime less frequently than non-permit holders. If you find an unstable teacher killing students, that unstable teacher is more likely to NOT be legally carrying, than permitted. If you want to reduce the rate of unstable teacher violence, have 'em be permit holders. This is what the growing body of evidence is saying. You simply have to remain ignorant of that evidence if you're gonna stay terrified about permit holders doing that sort of thing. All that said, I agree with you to a large extent. I also believe many boards will stay terrified. Because they don't want to get edumicated on the issue, they want to hate guns. Edited October 17, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon 1
sunstoned Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 22 hours ago, strappinglad said: " you can't fix stupid "😪 True
The Nehor Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 On 10/17/2019 at 9:18 AM, LoudmouthMormon said: Again, as more and more decade-long or longer studies on CCP holders emerge, the only way you can stay terrified about this, is by sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalalala no I won't read the data". Millions of permit holders carrying millions of guns in thousands of cities in millions of jobs, and we just don't hear anything beyond the occasional anecdote of anyone ending up provoked into a rage. Permit holders commit violent crime less frequently than non-permit holders. If you find an unstable teacher killing students, that unstable teacher is more likely to NOT be legally carrying, than permitted. If you want to reduce the rate of unstable teacher violence, have 'em be permit holders. This is what the growing body of evidence is saying. You simply have to remain ignorant of that evidence if you're gonna stay terrified about permit holders doing that sort of thing. All that said, I agree with you to a large extent. I also believe many boards will stay terrified. Because they don't want to get edumicated on the issue, they want to hate guns. I do not think the danger is the teacher going nuts. My worry if I was a teacher would be absentmindedly putting the gun on a desk or a student who knows I am carrying going for it or even just me forgetting to put the safety on after I clean it. If it is not loaded it would be of no use so it pretty much has to be. It is more likely to be an accident or someone going for it than a teacher going nuts. Most concealed carriers are not around children and teens all day with the danger that can involve. 2
LoudmouthMormon Posted October 19, 2019 Posted October 19, 2019 19 hours ago, The Nehor said: I do not think the danger is the teacher going nuts. My worry if I was a teacher would be absentmindedly putting the gun on a desk or a student who knows I am carrying going for it or even just me forgetting to put the safety on after I clean it. If it is not loaded it would be of no use so it pretty much has to be. It is more likely to be an accident or someone going for it than a teacher going nuts. I agree wholeheartedly, with one exception. There's no such thing as an accident, only negligence. Someone owns a gun, everything that happens with it is their responsibility and their problem. Someone absentmindedly leaves it and a kid finds it and shoots themselves? That's not an accident, any more than someone leaving a car in neutral and it coasts downhill into a bunch of tourists. But yes, gun negligence is far more commonplace than a permit carrier just going nuts ever will be. Quote Most concealed carriers are not around children and teens all day with the danger that can involve. How do you figure? I've been carrying since before I had kids, my wife got her permit when the kids were in their single digits. A usual reason for carrying is for protection, and a family only increases the value of what's being protected. 2
The Nehor Posted October 19, 2019 Posted October 19, 2019 1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said: I agree wholeheartedly, with one exception. There's no such thing as an accident, only negligence. Someone owns a gun, everything that happens with it is their responsibility and their problem. Someone absentmindedly leaves it and a kid finds it and shoots themselves? That's not an accident, any more than someone leaving a car in neutral and it coasts downhill into a bunch of tourists. But yes, gun negligence is far more commonplace than a permit carrier just going nuts ever will be. How do you figure? I've been carrying since before I had kids, my wife got her permit when the kids were in their single digits. A usual reason for carrying is for protection, and a family only increases the value of what's being protected. I agree that virtually every "accident" involving a firearm involves some kind of negligence. I just would not trust myself not to be negligent. I am pretty bright but I have ADHD and can be forgetful and impulsive. For the last bit I probably should have been more clear. When around your own children they probably know about firearms and were taught reasonably well about them. In a school environment you have kids and (probably worse) teens with undeveloped brains that you are in close proximity to that you do not know (which is what I was concerned about). Teens also are enjoying a hormone cocktail that makes them almost functionally insane. I would be less confident that one of them would not make a grab for the gun in a moment of anger or frustration. I do not think that is an accident but I could be culpable. Would not be worth the risk to me to carry if I were a teacher. 2
Bernard Gui Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) On 10/18/2019 at 4:33 PM, The Nehor said: I do not think the danger is the teacher going nuts. My worry if I was a teacher would be absentmindedly putting the gun on a desk or a student who knows I am carrying going for it or even just me forgetting to put the safety on after I clean it. If it is not loaded it would be of no use so it pretty much has to be. It is more likely to be an accident or someone going for it than a teacher going nuts. Most concealed carriers are not around children and teens all day with the danger that can involve.... Would not be worth the risk to me to carry if I were a teacher. After my experience I would most assuredly volunteer be a teacher who was trained and authorized to carry in school. It made me angry and sad to realize how helpless I was to protect myself and my students from an evil intruder. To alleviate safety concerns inexpensive, reliable, and secure gun safes with quick access features are readily available. In Washington, all gun owners are required to use them. Well, at least those who obey the law. Edited October 20, 2019 by Bernard Gui 3
MustardSeed Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 20 hours ago, The Nehor said: I agree that virtually every "accident" involving a firearm involves some kind of negligence. I just would not trust myself not to be negligent. I am pretty bright but I have ADHD and can be forgetful and impulsive. For the last bit I probably should have been more clear. When around your own children they probably know about firearms and were taught reasonably well about them. In a school environment you have kids and (probably worse) teens with undeveloped brains that you are in close proximity to that you do not know (which is what I was concerned about). Teens also are enjoying a hormone cocktail that makes them almost functionally insane. I would be less confident that one of them would not make a grab for the gun in a moment of anger or frustration. I do not think that is an accident but I could be culpable. Would not be worth the risk to me to carry if I were a teacher. This is why I don't carry. I'm ADD, distractible, easily startled - etc. I 1
Jake Starkey Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) I have known men and women in education who carried guns from pre-k to university. Against the law? Most of the time. I have know men and women who have ccw in church. Today, for existence. Against most denominational counsel? Most of the time. Edited October 20, 2019 by Jake Starkey
mfbukowski Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 4 hours ago, Jake Starkey said: I have known men and women in education who carried guns from pre-k to university. Against the law? Most of the time. I have know men and women who have ccw in church. Today, for existence. Against most denominational counsel? Most of the time. Yeah you've gotta watch those kindergartners with shotguns though.
LoudmouthMormon Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 5 hours ago, Jake Starkey said: I have known men and women in education who carried guns from pre-k to university. Against the law? Most of the time. I'd just like to leave this here... Quote As a permit holder, exactly where can I carry or not carry a handgun? The concealed firearm permit allows an individual to carry a firearm fully loaded and concealed. The permit also allows an individual to carry a firearm into public schools. https://bci.utah.gov/concealed-firearm/general-information/concealed-firearm-permit-frequently-asked-questions/
Jake Starkey Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 Such was not always the case, LoudMouthMormon. I think that one can ignore the Church's guidance on ccw in church if it will not shoulder the obligation of protecting worshipers.
Amulek Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 On 10/16/2019 at 11:32 PM, sunstoned said: This is very anecdotal, but in the early 1980's I had a student job at BYU. I drove a tow truck and towed illegally parked vehicles. I towed on average two to three per shift. All towed vehicles were taken to a compound and then inventoried. I was surprised and amazed at how many vehicles contained fire arms. What was troubling is that we could only inventory vehicles were unlocked. People drove around and parked on campus with guns in their cars, then they left them unlocked. That's unfortunate, but not entirely surprising. BYU prohibits students from possessing guns on university property - including all university owned housing. And pretty much all university approved off-campus housing has the same restrictions. So, if you are the kind of person who likes to go hunting or shooting on the weekends, your car is pretty much the only place you can keep a gun. If you are local, you could store it at your parents house. Or if you get married and escape the clutches of 'university approved housing' you can find someplace normal to live, but pretty much everyone else is out of luck. Out of curiosity, do you recall whether you ran across more rifles or more handguns in the cars you towed? 1
sunstoned Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, Amulek said: That's unfortunate, but not entirely surprising. BYU prohibits students from possessing guns on university property - including all university owned housing. And pretty much all university approved off-campus housing has the same restrictions. So, if you are the kind of person who likes to go hunting or shooting on the weekends, your car is pretty much the only place you can keep a gun. If you are local, you could store it at your parents house. Or if you get married and escape the clutches of 'university approved housing' you can find someplace normal to live, but pretty much everyone else is out of luck. Out of curiosity, do you recall whether you ran across more rifles or more handguns in the cars you towed? All the cars that we inventoried were unlocked. We could tow a locked car, but we could not forcefully open it. We only inventoried unlocked cars to identify and log any belongings and secure them so belongings wouldn't be stolen or lost while in our compound area (green house). I don't remember any rifles at all. But we never opened trunks. All firearms that I remember finding were handguns. They were either under the drivers seat or in the glovebox. Mostly they were under the seat. Edited October 22, 2019 by sunstoned 2
The Nehor Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/20/2019 at 5:26 PM, LoudmouthMormon said: I'd just like to leave this here... https://bci.utah.gov/concealed-firearm/general-information/concealed-firearm-permit-frequently-asked-questions/ These laws vary by state though. You probably know that but it is worth pointing out. 1
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