How far do you take agency?

[USU78]

On 5/24/2019 at 10:27 AM, Maidservant said:

I have almost always attended at least Sacrament Meeting (although I haven't attended Sunday School more than 10 times or so in the last 5+ years).  I attend the temple.  I accept callings and ministering assignments.  I try to pray, read my Book of Mormon, pay tithing.  Etc.  I was born in the church and have ancestors from it.  So I guess to most people I look like "the church."

However, when I was younger, people terrified me, period.  I was terrified of anger, of emotions, of loss, of people's hurt, of different thinking, of if someone would like me, terrified of talking about the Church to someone.  People of any kind, of any church.  I was raised in a lower class, white, Mormon neighborhood and hadn't seen much beyond.  I can honestly say I am no longer terrified of approaching and talking to people and listening to them without any judgment and I even think I have more calm and courage than most would, of approaching all kinds of people with compassion and respect.  But when did I stop being terrified?  Was it when I was 22?  When I was 34?  39?  It's not necessarily a quantum.  The ability to reach out comes somewhat gradually over time from experiences of being terrified.  That ability doesn't come from "being a member of the church" or "having a testimony" (which I'm not sure I'd describe myself as having at this point).

Once when I had a Cub Scout calling, I dropped the ball and probably angered and hurt people about what the Church a la Cub Scouting was supposed to be like, feel like, look like.  I'm sure they have 'a member of the Church did this' stories about me.  But what none of them knew was that I was pretty much on the floor with depression and complete physical inertia for a solid two months (NOT the 'sadness' depression, the chemical depression that causes your body not to move).  I'm sure I've had many instances where I dropped the ball and hurt people; I'm just giving one concrete example.  People often say they won't/can't attend church anymore because of some offense given, but I have literally been faced with the decision that perhaps it was better if I didn't go to church because of the danger, the high probability, I would be offending people by my presence etc, and that my gift to them would be my absence so that they could feel safe and come back to church.

I don't tell people things about me STILL because I Don't Care anymore if anyone notices me; because I know that they can't.  They literally can't.  They are in their own story, their own pain, EVERYONE is.  And I find that to be a relief actually.  As one poster above said--I no longer have to expect anything from anyone.  Except myself.  To keep helping myself and reaching out when I'm strong enough--which won't be all the time.  I'm NOT 'the church'.  I'm a human being too.  And there is so much I am going to fail at.  But I have stopped worrying about who is going to show up except for one person and that is myself--I show up for myself, and ask myself who I can show up for, although for any one thing I do for someone, I'm sure there were 50 opportunities I didn't do.

It's a heavy, scary thing to think that someone makes decisions based on my behavior and I BEG EVERYONE NOT TO DO THAT EVER! Don't go by me at all!  If you see me at Church or at WalMart--don't make decisions about who you are and what you may do based on ME!  Because I will disappoint you; I will let you down.

That's who the members of the Church are that didn't show up.  They are probably praying for someone too.

I found this quite beautiful, and I thank you for sharing it.  The interplay between the hippocampus and the habenula, the learned inability of these structures to sooth the self via chemical signals, the inability to send or receive chemical reward signals to give meaning to our existence, is at the heart of actual depression (not mere sadness, which is a fleeting emotional response to a stimulus).  There is a whole lot of pain out there that folks are dealing with, including some in leadership positions whom some in this very thread dismiss with a knowing sneer.  The advice to be kind to others, not to judge harshly, and to work on the assumption that the other is in pain more than half of the time works in both directions.  How am I, for example, to judge BY, what he said, what he did, decisions he made, other than charitably towards his personal situation, his times, his experiences?

And the same goes for addictive persons.  At the heart of every addiction is pain, with the addictive behaviors crafted to ameliorate the pain   ...   unsuccessfully.  

You, my friend, are my my newest hero!

Edited May 26, 2019 by USU78

[USU78]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I have very little doubt that my very existence offends some people.

I like that.  

Is that wrong?  

Welcome to the quorum, Elder!

[Robert F. Smith]

On 5/23/2019 at 5:07 PM, Duncan said:

Recently one of our Stake Presidency members made an observation that I hadn't considered before, he said in essence if someone goes inactive then we need to respect their right to choose that, even if it wouldn't be our choice. I was thinking too if someone is inactive should we just leave them be and not bother trying to reactivate them by respecting their choice to be inactive? how far do you take the idea of respecting someone's agency?

You use your free agency to decide whether to befriend him and his family, and to maintain that friendship regardless of what he chooses to do.

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, stemelbow said:

If i'm on a do not contact list I'd be surprised.  I've never requested as much, even though, largely, I"m not contacted.  The bishop was brand new when wife and I packed up and left, but the whole ward knew us pretty well, so he has some idea about us, I'm sure, as the gossipy lines trickled to his ears.  I'm not sure such a suggestion would do anything though.  We haven't really been visited in the past couple of years by anyone, so I doubt anyone is all that eager to write a letter to the lessers like us.  Not a bad idea to make the request though.  There is the good change that I'm unique amongst us non-goers in thinking a letter would be nice.  Wife seems pretty caught up with her social media fixing, and I in turn get some news through her.  I wouldn't doubt that many others who are curious keep abreast in the same way as she.  But I do appreciate your moxie on this and thought it worth noting.  

Well, I’m sorry you’ve been treated that way. 

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

The idea of writing letters that one poster suggested is one possibility I think I need to pray about.

That’s the ministering assignment for my companion and me. We send about 30 each month....it’s been as high as 50. We include a Conference talk excerpt and an offer of service if needed. Technically, we are supposed to go to their homes once in a while, but they have asked for no visitors, so we respect that. If they actually read our letters, they will know we care and are available if needed.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

On 5/23/2019 at 9:40 PM, changed said:

Lots of amazing books - 

Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life [Richard Rohr] 

Stages of Faith - Fowler

The Sin of Certainty - Pete Enns

As well as amazing podcasts - I especially love Noah Rasheta's Secular Buddhism (Check out #93 - Stepping Into Groundlessness, on embracing uncertainty - "acceptance of uncertainty as part of life" happens to be the highest stage within the Perry Levels of Intellectual and Ethical Development, which are unobtainable within an authoritarian organization espousing truth claims

 

Well since I love Perry, and those books,  I am sure glad I don't belong to any organizations which fit your description, especially not my church!

I embraced uncertainty 50 years ago in my Buddhist phase, good stuff!

I still meditate daily, mindfully now

 So are you still uncertain about your present course?

Edited May 25, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Maidservant]

On 5/24/2019 at 2:14 PM, USU78 said:

I found this quite beautiful, and I thank you for sharing it.  The interplay between the hippocampus and the amygdala, the learned inability of these structures to sooth the self via chemical signals, the inability to send or receive chemical reward signals to give meaning to our existence, is at the heart of actual depression (not mere sadness, which is a fleeting emotional response to a stimulus).  There is a whole lot of pain out there that folks are dealing with, including some in leadership positions whom some in this very thread dismiss with a knowing sneer.  The advice to be kind to others, not to judge harshly, and to work on the assumption that the other is in pain more than half of the time works in both directions.  How am I, for example, to judge BY, what he said, what he did, decisions he made, other than charitably towards his personal situation, his times, his experiences?

And the same goes for addictive persons.  At the heart of every addiction is pain, with the addictive behaviors crafted to ameliorate the pain   ...   unsuccessfully.  

You, my friend, are my my newest hero!

Agreed, I have had to learn to be compassionate to those in leadership (who I, in times past, felt free to say what I thought was wrong in what they were doing) by being in leadership myself and realizing there is no magic cape.

I have had a lot of learning and overcoming with my depression and what chemistry I need and I manage it quite well now because I understand my body.  Self-soothing is definitely part of it.

Thank you for your kind words.  Bless you and yours and your pain.

[carbon dioxide]

On 5/23/2019 at 5:07 PM, Duncan said:

Recently one of our Stake Presidency members made an observation that I hadn't considered before, he said in essence if someone goes inactive then we need to respect their right to choose that, even if it wouldn't be our choice.

People go inactive for different reasons.  I am not the most active member not because I am lazy or don't agree with the Church.  My job often requires me to work on Sunday.  Hospitals have to stay open 24/7.  Some people might be inactive simply because they find church boring or they just are lazy.  We should not assume that an inactive person has a testimony issue.  So nothing wrong with approaching inactive people and finding out if there is a reason they are not going to church.  If the reason they are inactive is they simply do not want to go to church,  then we should respect their choice at that point.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

Agreed, I have had to learn to be compassionate to those in leadership (who I, in times past, felt free to say what I thought was wrong in what they were doing) by being in leadership myself and realizing there is no magic cape.

I have had a lot of learning and overcoming with my depression and what chemistry I need and I manage it quite well now because I understand my body.  Self-soothing is definitely part of it.

Thank you for your kind words.  Bless you and yours and your pain.

Have you read up on the theory that holds depression is a survival strategy that arose in the harem? It accounts for women suffering three to one over men ... because depressed men got whipped to death before they could reproduce? Women in the harem, on the other hand, simply stayed in bed a lot and kept weird hours.

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Have you read up on the theory that holds depression is a survival strategy that arose in the harem? It accounts for women suffering three to one over men ... because depressed men got whipped to death before they could reproduce? Women in the harem, on the other hand, simply stayed in bed a lot and kept weird hours.

I don't buy it.  There were tons more women that needed to be up and moving in the world where depression would interfere with survival than ever lived in harems...and there was probably low birth rates and high infant or youth mortality in harems given the competition of who gets Dad's power.

Hormones seem quite tied to depression.  I suspect increased levels of depression is more side effect of hormones needed for fertility and the constant changing levels due to fertility cycles.

PS:  cfr please, I couldn't find anything googling....

PS:  Men are generally under diagnosed with depression as they don't manifest in the same women do, tending to be more irritable and aggressive than sad and apathetic.

....

Edited May 26, 2019 by Calm

[Maidservant]

47 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Have you read up on the theory that holds depression is a survival strategy that arose in the harem? It accounts for women suffering three to one over men ... because depressed men got whipped to death before they could reproduce? Women in the harem, on the other hand, simply stayed in bed a lot and kept weird hours.

That is interesting, not sure!

I am of the "depressed" = "deep rest" crowd.

I also don't really buy into the 'disease' and 'healthy' dichotomy that we have for anything, the pathology of body states, but rather I say that we misunderstand the body deeply and its energy, structure,  needs, materials, pathways, functions, features, and how to use and care for it/them.

I think that depression is a secondary symptom, which means that its root cause could be different for different people, and a combination of factors at that.

I do think that women don't rest enough, or honor their rhythms as to menstruation and childbearing (etc) and that that is part of the misunderstanding.  So the body says, "REST NOW!  DON'T MOVE!" and, because of our society's expectations, we think something is wrong, when really it is the body working quite well to keep us alive.  (Men too, for their rhythms.)

For me, my 'depression' is about magnesium deficiency, B12 deficiency, and just 'dirty cells' and an overworked liver in general (sugar, metals, on and on).  So if I eat with my chemicals and my liver in mind, with a detox here and there, I'm fine.  If I feel it coming on, I take steps.

I guess we are derailing massively lol might be worth a Social Hall thread topic.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Maidservant

[USU78]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I don't buy it.  There were tons more women that needed to be up and moving in the world where depression would interfere with survival than ever lived in harems...and there was probably low birth rates and high infant or youth mortality in harems given the competition of who gets Dad's power.

Hormones seem quite tied to depression.  I suspect increased levels of depression is more side effect of hormones needed for fertility and the constant changing levels due to fertility cycles.

PS:  cfr please, I couldn't find anything googling....

PS:  Men are generally under diagnosed with depression as they don't manifest in the same women do, tending to be more irritable and aggressive than sad and apathetic.

....

My stepson's shrink explained it. Don't know where he found it. I just found this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22794315/ 

And this: https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-depression-could-save-your-life

Edited May 26, 2019 by USU78

[USU78]

53 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

That is interesting, not sure!

I am of the "depressed" = "deep rest" crowd.

I also don't really buy into the 'disease' and 'healthy' dichotomy that we have for anything, the pathology of body states, but rather I say that we misunderstand the body deeply and its energy, structure,  needs, materials, pathways, functions, features, and how to use and care for it/them.

I think that depression is a secondary symptom, which means that its root cause could be different for different people, and a combination of factors at that.

I do think that women don't rest enough, or honor their rhythms as to menstruation and childbearing (etc) and that that is part of the misunderstanding.  So the body says, "REST NOW!  DON'T MOVE!" and, because of our society's expectations, we think something is wrong, when really it is the body working quite well to keep us alive.  (Men too, for their rhythms.)

For me, my 'depression' is about magnesium deficiency, B12 deficiency, and just 'dirty cells' and an overworked liver in general (sugar, metals, on and on).  So if I eat with my chemicals and my liver in mind, with a detox here and there, I'm fine.  If I feel it coming on, I take steps.

I guess we are derailing massively lol might be worth a Social Hall thread topic.

My great grandfather wrote of his blue times when he'd take to his bed for who knows how long. In a barely past subsistence economy, that probably works, since field prep, sowing, and harvest are the only non-negotiables.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, USU78 said:

My stepson's shrink explained it. Don't know where he found it. I just found this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22794315/ 

And this: https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-depression-could-save-your-life

Anyone extrapolating from polygynous women have higher rates of depression to the harem caused higher level of depression in women in general is ignoring imo the fact that depression leads to less interest in sex (and likely less sex initiated by the husband if there are wives around interested or even fighting for his attention and depression is likely to lead to a woman looking less attractive due to not caring as much, etc) and making it harder to care for one's children (given competition for resources assuming the children will get as good as care as the wives who are able to more easily able to care for their own is unrealistic imo).

Any chance your stepson's appointment was on April 1st?

Edited May 26, 2019 by Calm

[USU78]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Anyone extrapolating from polygynous women have higher rates of depression to the harem caused higher level of depression in women in general is ignoring imo the fact that depression leads to less interest in sex (and likely less sex initiated by the husband if there are wives around interested or even fighting for his attention and depression is likely to lead to a woman looking less attractive due to not caring as much, etc) and making it harder to care for one's children (given competition for resources assuming the children will get as good as care as the wives who are able to more easily able to care for their own is unrealistic imo).

Any chance your stepson's appointment was on April 1st?

Well ... it was an experimental ketamine clinic, so there's that 😎.

[changed]

On 5/25/2019 at 3:19 PM, mfbukowski said:

 So are you still uncertain about your present course?

 

Absolutely.  Wouldn't have it any other way

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, changed said:

 

Absolutely.  Wouldn't have it any other way

So if you are uncertain about uncertainty, you might be open to certainty.  Interesting. 

 

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/23/2019 at 9:54 PM, JLHPROF said:

Pres. Heber C. Kimball-

"I do not feel as I used to when I see a man going away from the society of the Church of God. I used to be filled with sympathy and plead with them hours and hours, importuning with them until my head would ache and my heart sicken; and I never had the satisfaction in even converting one such character in my life. If I should happen to get one converted he would not stay converted, so I have concluded, and I think wisely, to let them go, and not suffer myself to have any more feelings about it than I would about any of the common occurrences of life."

CFR, please.

[Kenngo1969]

Must we allow others their agency?  Certainly.  Whatever one chooses to give to God, or not, (especially if one chooses to give His will to God, which, in the final analysis, is the only thing we have left to give to God that He did not give us in the first place), such a choice must be voluntary and freely made.  All we can do to those who make choices we might think are poor choices, and whom we might wish would make better choices, is to love them.

All of that having been said, the Heber C. Kimball quote, if it is genuine, certainly is at odds with how Alma and the Sons of Mosiah felt regarding a similar matter.

Quote

 

Mosiah 28:

3 Now they were desirous that salvation should be declared to every creature, for they could not bear that any human soul should perish; yea, even the very thoughts that any soul should endure endless torment did cause them to quake and tremble.

 

 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

CFR, please.

Journal of Discourses 3:109

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

All of that having been said, the Heber C. Kimball quote, if it is genuine,

I'm not in the habit of providing spurious quotes or making things up.

The Journals may not represent "official" doctrine (whatever goalpost passes for official these days) but they were the Ensign of their day.

Edited May 27, 2019 by JLHPROF

[Kenngo1969]

39 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm not in the habit of providing spurious quotes or making things up.

The Journals may not represent "official" doctrine (whatever goalpost passes for official these days) but they were the Ensign of their day.

OK.  I meant no offense.  Keep in mind that Bernard's CFR had not been answered before I posted that.  And while President Heber C. Kimball's experience is President Heber C. Kimball's experience, and while he is entitled to his opinion, that experience and that opinion, even though it was published in "The Ensign of the day," since it is but one man's opinion and one man's experience, does not necessarily reflect official doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as proclaimed by the Lord's Prophet and/or unitedly by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.  And my point that Heber C. Kimball's views certainly seem at odds with those of Alma the Younger and the Four Sons of Mosiah (black letter scripture: Can't get much more "official" than that) still stands.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Journal of Discourses 3:109

Thanks. I always like to read the whole talk.

[nuclearfuels]

On 5/23/2019 at 7:07 PM, Duncan said:

Recently one of our Stake Presidency members made an observation that I hadn't considered before, he said in essence if someone goes inactive then we need to respect their right to choose that, even if it wouldn't be our choice. I was thinking too if someone is inactive should we just leave them be and not bother trying to reactivate them by respecting their choice to be inactive? how far do you take the idea of respecting someone's agency?

Actually - I'd take it as far as they'd like.  

Some family members prefer to not communicate with some other family members. 

Do they need therapy and Rx? Sure, but am I in a position to diagnose and prescribe? No

I send them gifts on holidays and remain open to when they might return and open the conversation up again.

Kind of like when President Monson was a bishop and wrote 17 letters to a WWII active combat member of his ward before hearing back.

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/23/2019 at 9:40 PM, changed said:

 

Leave the 99 and go after the one?  Haha - they say it, but they don't do it - not for the faith crisis "one's"  

Big hugs going out to you Tacenda.  I am so lucky - there is a thriving "inactive" support group in my area, and that has made all the difference - along with forums like this to find others traveling along the same paths.  Lots of amazing books - 

Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life [Richard Rohr] 

Stages of Faith - Fowler

The Sin of Certainty - Pete Enns

As well as amazing podcasts - I especially love Noah Rasheta's Secular Buddhism (Check out #93 - Stepping Into Groundlessness, on embracing uncertainty - "acceptance of uncertainty as part of life" happens to be the highest stage within the Perry Levels of Intellectual and Ethical Development, which are unobtainable within an authoritarian organization espousing truth claims

 

Interesting. I belong to an authoritarian organization that espouses truth claims, but I readily accept uncertainty as a part of life because it also espouses the agency of man which is about as uncertain as one can get. That's why we have the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I have verified uncertainty as a part of life through my own experience, yet I remain in and part of the organization. Being at the highest stage is exhilarating!