Apostasy and the Removal of the President

[MiserereNobis]

There's a discussion on the gay marriage policy thread that touches on issues of apostasy. I thought I'd bring it to a wider audience because it is of interest to me. This thread isn't about the gay marriage policy, so take that topic over there. Thanks!

Here are some questions I have. Answer any you'd like  

I've heard that the LDS church will not be allowed to go into apostasy. Why? Why would the original church be allowed to but not the restored church?

What would constitute apostasy in the LDS church? Any specific examples would be great.

How would you know the LDS church has gone into apostasy? Of course, the president wouldn't tell you; he would tell you the opposite.

How can the president be removed? There was mention in the other thread that God would kill him before he went into apostasy. There was also mention that he can be removed. What is the procedure for removing the president?

If God would kill the president before he led the church astray, doesn't that mean de facto that he is infallible?

Add any other questions/answers you'd like related to the topic. Thanks!

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

There's a discussion on the gay marriage policy thread that touches on issues of apostasy. I thought I'd bring it to a wider audience because it is of interest to me. This thread isn't about the gay marriage policy, so take that topic over there. Thanks!

Here are some questions I have. Answer any you'd like  

I've heard that the LDS church will not be allowed to go into apostasy. Why? Why would the original church be allowed to but not the restored church?

What would constitute apostasy in the LDS church? Any specific examples would be great.

How would you know the LDS church has gone into apostasy? Of course, the president wouldn't tell you; he would tell you the opposite.

How can the president be removed? There was mention in the other thread that God would kill him before he went into apostasy. There was also mention that he can be removed. What is the procedure for removing the president?

If God would kill the president before he led the church astray, doesn't that mean de facto that he is infallible?

Add any other questions/answers you'd like related to the topic. Thanks!

I've heard that the LDS church will not be allowed to go into apostasy. Why? Why would the original church be allowed to but not the restored church?

John 12:24 in principle applies: the Great Apostasy will no more return than will Jesus die again.

What would constitute apostasy in the LDS church? Any specific examples would be great.

The same as in the original church.

How would you know the LDS church has gone into apostasy? Of course, the president wouldn't tell you; he would tell you the opposite.

The Gift of the Holy Ghost, but contrary to John 12:24, so I'd have a choice to make LOL.

How can the president be removed? There was mention in the other thread that God would kill him before he went into apostasy. There was also mention that he can be removed. What is the procedure for removing the president?

Disciplinary council as set forth in the D&C.

If God would kill the president before he led the church astray, doesn't that mean de facto that he is infallible?

Not at all; he can still enjoy fallibility and not lead the Church astray. The operative words are "remove" (not kill) and "attempt" to lead the Church astray. John 12:24 in principle applies here as well, since the Lord will not allow another Great Apostasy any more than He will allow Himself to be killed again.

[CA Steve]

8 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've heard that the LDS church will not be allowed to go into apostasy. Why?

This doesn't really answer your question but given that there are at least 400 different expressions of the church that Joseph started, I suppose there is only a 1 in 400 chance that any of us who trace our belief back to him, belong to the one expression that has not been allowed to descend into apostasy. 

[snowflake]

There never was an apostasy, the greek orthodox and catholic churches have clear lineages to the time of Christ. 

[Metis_LDS]

I think we have the wrong angle on this.  All three members of the Presidency form a quorum.  All three would have to go off the tracks so to speak or else if just one did it would become quickly known. 

[CV75]

15 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

I think we have the wrong angle on this.  All three members of the Presidency form a quorum.  All three would have to go off the tracks so to speak or else if just one did it would become quickly known. 

And the other quorums are equal in authority and power to the First Presidency -- a nice check on power and an assurance of common consent. When the President is incapacitated due to health as we often see, that is a good example of his fallibility and we still move along with the priesthood keys intact in large part due to the numebr of prophets, seers and revelators we have and their organization into quorums.

[MiserereNobis]

21 minutes ago, snowflake said:

There never was an apostasy, the greek orthodox and catholic churches have clear lineages to the time of Christ. 

Ha. I'm with you on this one, buddy  

[RevTestament]

13 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

There's a discussion on the gay marriage policy thread that touches on issues of apostasy. I thought I'd bring it to a wider audience because it is of interest to me. This thread isn't about the gay marriage policy, so take that topic over there. Thanks!

Here are some questions I have. Answer any you'd like  

I've heard that the LDS church will not be allowed to go into apostasy. Why? Why would the original church be allowed to but not the restored church?

CV75 gave you pretty good answers, but I will elaborate a bit. Because our scripture tells us the priesthood will not be taken from the earth again until the sons of Levi make an offering in righteousness. I believe this will occur during the seventh seal. After that, however, it is conceivable the priesthood may again become corrupted. We do know that at the end of the millennium Satan will again gain some power over men. There is no guarantee that some apostasy won't occur. Indeed, it sounds like it will.  I guess your question is whether it will among the Church leadership, and the answer is we simply don't know.

13 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

What would constitute apostasy in the LDS church? Any specific examples would be great.

Well an example may the the so called "Adam-God" doctrine which was disavowed by Pres Kimball. It seems one of them was wrong, although maybe the error is more one of misinterpretation. I seems to me that in the Catholic Church if a pope is later called wrong, he essentially gets declared an anti-pope.

13 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

How would you know the LDS church has gone into apostasy? Of course, the president wouldn't tell you; he would tell you the opposite.

i do believe various leaders have been incorrect about multiple things, but I don't see the Church in a state of apostasy, so I guess I disagree somewhat about the definition. I see the Church as continuing to teach the core concepts of salvation, and continuing to promulgate the authorized priesthood. I see apostasy more as actual teaching against the Church. Having disagreements about the correct interpretation of scripture for instance just doesn't fit my definition of apostasy.

13 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

How can the president be removed? There was mention in the other thread that God would kill him before he went into apostasy. There was also mention that he can be removed. What is the procedure for removing the president?

Procedure for removal is the same as any other member of the Church. Speculation that God would "kill him" before he went into apostasy is just that. Brigham Young wasn't killed - nor was Pres Kimball. 

13 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

If God would kill the president before he led the church astray, doesn't that mean de facto that he is infallible?

Add any other questions/answers you'd like related to the topic. Thanks!

See above. They are not infallible. They are quite fallible, and have been wrong more than once. I don't think God has killed any of them yet - beyond their duly appointed time of death. Historically, with the exception of Christ, God's prophets have made mistakes, and God has corrected them. This includes Joseph Smith. This need to stick to the Presidency like glue is one I don't care for. It leads to a type of leader worship that men fall prey to. If I have doubts about what is taught, I pray about it. Not being in a state of apostasy does not equal always being right. In fact the Lord says He will start His corrections with/inside this Church.

D&C 112: 24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

So does the above describe apostasy within the Church? Does that mean the whole Church is apostate? Those seem like two different things to me.

[3DOP]

46 minutes ago, snowflake said:

There never was an apostasy, the greek orthodox and catholic churches have clear lineages to the time of Christ. 

I don't think the LDS argument is that the Eastern or Western Catholics/Orthodox failed to uphold a lineage back to the Apostles. That is important. But it is not enough. The Jewish dispensation did not end because the Levitical priesthood was lost. If I were LDS, I would point out that there was a legitimate high priest sitting in "Moses' seat" when the Temple Veil was rent in twain and a new covenant was established. A Restoration, or new covenant, does not require that a priestly/episcopal lineage to the Apostles was broken, although that would be convenient. Other factors can cause the prevailing covenant to be broken. Obviously, crying out for the crucifixion of the Messiah is one of those kinds of factor. Whether Catholics or Orthodox have reached a similar kind of situation is debatable. Being Catholic, I say no, but I have to defend the Church against charges of torture, simony, idolatry, heresy, and more. Of course I don't believe the Catholic Church is guilty of any of those charges. But a lot of "Latter-day Catholics" are now convinced that the charges are true. If I thought the charges were accurate, I wouldn't apologize like John Paul II, I'd bolt, I'd be looking for a Restoration. It was too late for the Pharisees to apologize and reform after Jesus was crucified. They lost it (the covenant) even if they could trace their priests back to Levi. It was time for a new covenant. That is the LDS argument with regards to Rome and the East, if I am not mistaken.

3DOP     

Edited April 25, 2019 by 3DOP

[MiserereNobis]

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

John 12:24 in principle applies: the Great Apostasy will no more return than will Jesus die again.

John 12:24 is Jesus speaking of His own death and then applying it to our lives. I know you said it applies in principal, but that is exegesis that doesn't seem to be supported by the text. I would say it applies to individual lives. The apostles gave their lives to the Church, and look at all the seeds that came from that.

It's also odd to say that the original church had to go into apostasy so that there would be more seeds, when the original church has produced far more Christian and Christian works than the LDS church.

I guess I don't buy that reasoning.

33 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What would constitute apostasy in the LDS church? Any specific examples would be great.

The same as in the original church.

Can you give specific examples, since I obviously don't believe the original church went into apostasy? Thanks.

34 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How can the president be removed? There was mention in the other thread that God would kill him before he went into apostasy. There was also mention that he can be removed. What is the procedure for removing the president?

Disciplinary council as set forth in the D&C.

Can you elaborate since I'm not familiar with the part of the D&C that applies? More specific answers from you would be great, thanks  

35 minutes ago, CV75 said:

if God would kill the president before he led the church astray, doesn't that mean de facto that he is infallible?

Not at all; he can still enjoy fallibility and not lead the Church astray. The operative words are "remove" (not kill) and "attempt" to lead the Church astray.

There were those in the other thread who said God would kill him before he did, so I take it you disagree with them.

I'm just thinking for those who believe that God will kill the prophet before he leads the church astray, then you don't have to worry about him leading the church astray, so then you can act as if he were infallible.

Why did you put quotes around "attempt"? Care to elaborate?

Also, what do you think "astray" means in this context?

Thanks!

[Scott Lloyd]

50 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

There's a discussion on the gay marriage policy thread that touches on issues of apostasy. I thought I'd bring it to a wider audience because it is of interest to me. This thread isn't about the gay marriage policy, so take that topic over there. Thanks!

Here are some questions I have. Answer any you'd like  

I've heard that the LDS church will not be allowed to go into apostasy. Why? Why would the original church be allowed to but not the restored church?

What would constitute apostasy in the LDS church? Any specific examples would be great.

How would you know the LDS church has gone into apostasy? Of course, the president wouldn't tell you; he would tell you the opposite.

How can the president be removed? There was mention in the other thread that God would kill him before he went into apostasy. There was also mention that he can be removed. What is the procedure for removing the president?

If God would kill the president before he led the church astray, doesn't that mean de facto that he is infallible?

Add any other questions/answers you'd like related to the topic. Thanks!

What to you constitutes infallibility? Can a Church president be fallible yet still not disposed to lead the Church astray?

[MiserereNobis]

28 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

I think we have the wrong angle on this.  All three members of the Presidency form a quorum.  All three would have to go off the tracks so to speak or else if just one did it would become quickly known. 

 

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

And the other quorums are equal in authority and power to the First Presidency -- a nice check on power and an assurance of common consent. When the President is incapacitated due to health as we often see, that is a good example of his fallibility and we still move along with the priesthood keys intact in large part due to the numebr of prophets, seers and revelators we have and their organization into quorums.

Interesting. I was under the impression that the president was fully in charge. Is he able to remove under his own authority members of other quorums?

(side note: I've always been intrigued with the LDS use of the word quorum, since it doesn't mean what quorum means. It took me awhile to figure it out. Is there some sort of history behind the LDS usage?)

Also, can the other quorums then remove the first presidency, since they are equal in authority to it?

Is there any historical examples of such things going on?

[MiserereNobis]

11 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I seems to me that in the Catholic Church if a pope is later called wrong, he essentially gets declared an anti-pope.

No, an anti-pope is a person who claims to be the pope but is not.

Thanks for your other answers!

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

 

Interesting. I was under the impression that the president was fully in charge. Is he able to remove under his own authority members of other quorums?

(side note: I've always been intrigued with the LDS use of the word quorum, since it doesn't mean what quorum means. It took me awhile to figure it out. Is there some sort of history behind the LDS usage?)

Also, can the other quorums then remove the first presidency, since they are equal in authority to it?

Is there any historical examples of such things going on?

Wherein does the meaning of quorum differ from the Latter-day Saint usage of the term?

[MiserereNobis]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What to you constitutes infallibility? Can a Church president be fallible yet still not disposed to lead the Church astray?

I would certainly think so, but I'm coming at it from a Catholic point-of-view where we've had some pretty bad popes in our history. We don't say priesthood authority is based upon worthiness.

This was the argument going on a bit in the other thread. Can the president be fallible and yet not lead the church astray? I'm wondering what a wider audience thinks of it, especially the subtleties, like to what degree of fallibility and what does astray mean.

[MiserereNobis]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Wherein does the meaning of quorum differ from the Latter-day Saint usage of the term?

Doesn't the LDS term mean a group of that type of priesthood? Like the elder's quorum, which could also be called the group of elders? Maybe I still misunderstand.

The common usage is the minimum number of members of a group/committee that have to be present for the group/committee to officially act. That doesn't seem to fit the way I see it being used by LDS.

[Jane_Doe]

54 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've heard that the LDS church will not be allowed to go into apostasy. Why? Why would the original church be allowed to but not the restored church?

God said so.  

54 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

What would constitute apostasy in the LDS church? Any specific examples would be great.

When talking in this context, whole scale church apostasy would being defined as complete lost of priesthood authority.   There will always be a need for continuing revelation and guidance from God cause we mortals aren't perfect.  An a person/group who has lost their authority from God can still love Him and have some of His truths.

54 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

How would you know the LDS church has gone into apostasy? Of course, the president wouldn't tell you; he would tell you the opposite.

You individually, get on your knees and ask God.

54 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

If God would kill the president before he led the church astray, doesn't that mean de facto that he is infallible?

No!!   Infallible would mean that this mortal sinner is 100% perfect like Christ Himself, which is simply not true.  

54 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Add any other questions/answers you'd like related to the topic. Thanks!

Remember: this is not the prophet's church.  This is the Church of Jesus Christ.  Always remember that He is your head, and you should always be in communication with Him directly.  His servants supplement and help guide that relationship, not replace it.   

One thing I love about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is that emphasis on both.  I have met some* Catholics that don't believe in approaching God at all, instead it's all about looking to mortal leaders, which makes me sad.  I've met some* Protestants that make me sad when they are completely anti anything structured and do whatever the heck they want.  

*"Some" is a key word here.  They are a minority, but they do exist.  And LDS folks ain't perfect either.   

 

 

[SouthernMo]

44 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

All three members of the Presidency form a quorum. 

This is not in line with any  LDS teaching or practice that I am aware of.

[Metis_LDS]

Just now, SouthernMo said:

This is not in line with any  LDS teaching or practice that I am aware of.

When a new President is voted on in General Conference, the first to vote is called as the Quorum of the First Presidency.  Only those three get to vote first, So the President and his counsellors.

[SouthernMo]

31 minutes ago, CV75 said:

And the other quorums are equal in authority and power to the First Presidency -- a nice check on power and an assurance of common consent. When the President is incapacitated due to health as we often see, that is a good example of his fallibility and we still move along with the priesthood keys intact in large part due to the numebr of prophets, seers and revelators we have and their organization into quorums.

How many quorums of prophets seers and revelators are there?  I thought there was only one?

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

This doesn't really answer your question but given that there are at least 400 different expressions of the church that Joseph started, I suppose there is only a 1 in 400 chance that any of us who trace our belief back to him, belong to the one expression that has not been allowed to descend into apostasy. 

This is quite interesting to consider.

[RevTestament]

32 minutes ago, snowflake said:

There never was an apostasy, the greek orthodox and catholic churches have clear lineages to the time of Christ. 

There are so many things here, that one simply cannot do justice to them in this format. 

Did they continue Christ's structure of 12 apostles?

Did they continue to have "other seventy" originally appointed by Christ? 

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

Essentially their bishops mentioned by Timothy (also as virtually requiring to be married) became their Church heads, because the apostles who appointed them died off without a chance to replace themselves like at first(Paul, Barnabus, etc). Do you really believe that is a "clear lineage" to the time of Christ? Where did Christ appoint Cardinals? And in the case of the RCC they are not following the admonition found in Timothy for the bishops and deacons to be married. Baptism by immersion practiced in the early Church has been discontinued. The practice of baptizing infants was an obvious later introduction with the introduction of the doctrine of original sin. Then there are the many incorrect(unscriptural)  teachings.

Then there are the scriptural prophecies that apostasy would come, that a false prophet would mislead the entire world, that just as Jerusalem had played the whore that the gentile churches would have a great whore, and finally that the heavens would receive Christ until all things got restored (See Acts). Men never recognize themselves being apostate - it just has never happened. They always think they have the truth. They never recognize playing the whore. That day wont' come until the 10 toes finally see that God's word has been fulfilled. 

Rev 17:

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

[MiserereNobis]

30 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Where did Christ appoint Cardinals?

Where did Christ appoint the presiding bishopric? Where did Christ appoint patriarchs? For that matter, where did Christ appoint bishops and deacons (and teachers and elders and high priests)? And why do you have 15 apostles when Christ only had 12?

I think trying to lay the organizational structure of the LDS church alongside the original church and saying they are the same is quite problematic. So seeing some structural differences between the Catholic church and what is in the Bible shouldn't be a problem, either.

It was the apostles, with the authority of Christ, that created the structure of the original church. They passed on the apostolic keys to the bishops. Obviously this is the Catholic view, but it isn't irrational or incoherent.

And just to be clear, cardinals are an administrative appointment, meaning it is not another type of priesthood. In Catholicism, you have deacon, priest, and bishop.

30 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

And in the case of the RCC they are not following the admonition found in Timothy for the bishops and deacons to be married

Deacons can be married in the RCC. Priests can be married in Eastern Catholic Churches. The celibacy of the priesthood is not doctrine, but tradition. Hard and fast and not going to change, but it is not dogma.

By the way, do you have any married deacons in your ward?  

ETA: just to clarify, the Catholic Church is composed of 24 particular churches. The largest is the Latin Church (which what almost everyone thinks about when they hear Catholic). The other 23 are Eastern Catholic Churches. It is in the eastern churches were priests can be married. They are still Catholic, because they have apostolic keys and believe in the primacy of the pope, but they are not part of the Latin church. Eastern Orthodoxy also holds apostolic keys -- their sacraments are valid -- but they do not subscribe to the primacy of the pope, hence they are not Catholic. They also allow for married clergy.

Edited April 25, 2019 by MiserereNobis

[SouthernMo]

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Men never recognize themselves being apostate - it just has never happened. They always think they have the truth. They never recognize playing the whore.

Are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints exempt from this?  So long as we keep moving the senior-most apostle to the head of the church, will the church never apostatize?

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've heard that the LDS church will not be allowed to go into apostasy. Why? Why would the original church be allowed to but not the restored church?

There are two main reasons people think there wouldn't be apostasies. The first is Wilford Woodruff's oft repeated quote which suggests God would take the prophet away before allowing it. Since he was a prophet people tend to give that a lot of weight. The second reason is Paul's statement in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The assumption is that there was supposed to be an apostasy prior to the last days. Now of course Paul doesn't say there was only supposed to be one. And our non-Mormon friends tend to think the falling away wasn't total. Some Mormons associate the apostasy comment by Paul with the woman (church) fleeing into the wilderness in Revelation. But for Mormons that's the main reasoning along with Nephi's vision in 1 Nephi.

Of course going into total apostasy isn't the same as not having errors. 

Edited April 25, 2019 by clarkgoble