Members who overdo it

[JAHS]

Dan Peterson made an interesting observation in his Patheos blog today:
"Among those who leave the Church, there are also people who do so not because they fall short of the mark in any simple and obvious way, but because, in a sense, they look “beyond the mark.”  They don’t forsake the Church because of insufficient belief or devotion but — in a certain way — because they overdo it."

I have the feeling there some less active or ex church members who fall into a category similar to one he talked about. To state it simply some of these members take the church too d..n seriously.
They believe everything; they get burned out trying to do everything they are told they should do; they are fanatical in their belief and activity in the church. They have worn themselves out trying to be perfect to the point where they feel guilty for not being perfect. They can't do anymore and so they give up and then find a reason to leave it. And such members would easily find reasons to leave.
Now, before I am accused of stereotyping all ex-members, I admit that this represents a fairly small but real group that I have been witness to.

Edited March 30, 2019 by JAHS

[tulip]

Being in the Bishopric leads to major burnout.   In my ward, the Bishopric are always going on vacations to avoid some of the meetings.   

[Garden Girl]

My folks almost fell into  this category... enough so that it caused my sis and I to "rebel" and we were the ones who left... I didn't dare tell them their role in that or it would have broken their hearts... eventually I did return and have remained, and will continue to do so...

My step-dad was a convert and mom sporadically active... When my step-dad converted, it was as if they had been thirsting in the desert and suddenly happened upon a wonderful cool spring... they couldn't get enough... the irony is that now I'm almost as bad... almost... they mellowed as they aged but the damage was done.  My biggest regret is that my mom died before knowing that I had returned.  I love being a strong Latter-Day Saint Woman...

GG

[let’s roll]

I’d suggest it’s even simpler than the OP’s explanation.  The OP’s point is that sometimes folks take the Church too seriously.

IMHO, if your sole focus is on the Church, you’re almost certain to struggle, they’ll always be something missing.  It’s not about the Church.  Never has been, never will be. 

It’s about Deity.  Always has been, always will be.

The Church can play an important role— point you to Deity and provide an outlet to exercise the fruits of your witness, but it is not the giver of that witness.  That witness comes only from Deity. 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Dan Peterson made an interesting observation in his Patheos blog today:
"Among those who leave the Church, there are also people who do so not because they fall short of the mark in any simple and obvious way, but because, in a sense, they look “beyond the mark.”  They don’t forsake the Church because of insufficient belief or devotion but — in a certain way — because they overdo it."

I have the feeling there some less active or ex church members who fall into a category similar to one he talked about. To state it simply some of these members take the church too d..m seriously.
They believe everything; they get burned out trying to do everything they are told they should do; they are fanatical in their belief and activity in the church. They have worn themselves out trying to be perfect to the point where they feel guilty for not being perfect. They can't do anymore and so they give up and then find a reason to leave it. And such members would easily find reasons to leave.
Now, before I am accused of stereotyping all ex-members, I admit that this represents a fairly small but real group that I have been witness to.

Makes sense to me. I find the most literalistic members fall hard and have the most pain when a paradigm shift happens.

From Fowler, maybe they are hard core stage 3. Their devotion is a barrier to seeing stage 4 and ultimately stage 5/6. 

The problem I see is that the Church is setting many members up to fail. There are rules for everything, we know almost exactly how the past happened, what the present should entail, and what will happen after this life. All tied in a nice bow.

Unfortunately, when the wrapping paper comes off in the corner and it isn't exactly what was expected underneath. It is hard to ignore the corner with the missing paper.

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I’d suggest it’s even simpler than the OP’s explanation.  The OP’s point is that sometimes folks take the Church too seriously.

IMHO, if your sole focus is on the Church, you’re almost certain to struggle, they’ll always be something missing.  It’s not about the Church.  Never has been, never will be. 

It’s about Deity.  Always has been, always will be.

The Church can play an important role— point you to Deity and provide an outlet to exercise the fruits of your witness, but it is not the giver of that witness.  That witness comes only from Deity. 

If this is the case the church needs to change it. Through the years it has been all about the church and one of the huge fallouts is the ex-LDS that go onto becoming Atheist. They're lucky if they can be agnostic, and hold some hope for a God, if that. Not saying an Atheist is bad, they're probably some of the nicest people actually. They still have their moral compass, they aren't going to become these evildoers because they lost the belief.

When we covenant to sacrifice all that we have to the COJCOLDS, and not to the Saviour/God, that's a problem in the temple. It's time we focus on God/Jesus at the forefront. I know the church is working on that because they see the problem. I'm sure I'm going to get feedback against this, but it's shall I say, IMO.

BTW, my husband and I were somewhat like GG's mom and step dad. We tried to do everything the church asked us to do. Nightly scriptures/prayer/FHE, weekly Sacrament, all 3 hours, never saying no to callings, never letting our kids try to get out of going. Now all of my children are inactive, the hate the church now. Maybe it's because we did that, and left out more fun times and we really should have taught them to have a relationship first and foremost with God, not the church. And I think I was doing it more for my in laws to make them happy, or maybe to look the part. So sad really, and I do understand that most people in the church do concentrate on the Lord.

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, Jean-Luc Picard said:

Makes sense to me. I find the most literalistic members fall hard and have the most pain when a paradigm shift happens.

From Fowler, maybe they are hard core stage 3. Their devotion is a barrier to seeing stage 4 and ultimately stage 5/6. 

The problem I see is that the Church is setting many members up to fail. There are rules for everything, we know almost exactly how the past happened, what the present should entail, and what will happen after this life. All tied in a nice bow.

Unfortunately, when the wrapping paper comes off in the corner and it isn't exactly what was expected underneath. It is hard to ignore the corner with the missing paper.

Bingo, wish I'd read this post before my post above, and I'd have put ditto under yours. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Tacenda

[JAHS]

President Nelson gave a good talk on this very issue back in 1995 called Perfection Pending:
"If I were to ask which of the Lord’s commandments is most difficult to keep, many of us might cite Matt. 5:48: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Keeping this commandment can be a concern because each of us is far from perfect, both spiritually and temporally. Reminders come repeatedly. We may lock keys inside the car, or even forget where the car is parked. And not infrequently we walk intently from one part of the house to another, only to forget the reason for the errand.
When comparing one’s personal performance with the supreme standard of the Lord’s expectation, the reality of imperfection can at times be depressing. My heart goes out to conscientious Saints who, because of their shortcomings, allow feelings of depression to rob them of happiness in life."

It's these people who are in danger of giving up and leaving if they are not able to have some fun in life and not be so hard on themselves. 

[Calm]

As taught in the past by Church leaders our highest priorities are not to be the Church in and of itself:

Quote

“Given the gravity of current conditions, would parents be willing to give up just one outside thing, giving that time and talent instead to the family? Parents and grandparents, please scrutinize your schedules and priorities in order to ensure that life’s prime relationships get more prime time. Even consecrated and devoted Brigham Young was once told by the Lord, ‘Take especial care of your family’ (D&C 126:3). Sometimes it is the most conscientious who need this message the most!” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1994, 121; or Ensign,May 1994, 90).

Quote

“The question is sometimes asked by younger priesthood holders, ‘Where do I place my greatest priorities—to the Church, to my family, or to my profession?’ I have answered that question by emphasizing that heads of families have four major responsibilities. Certainly the first is to the home and family. There should be no question about this. A man may succeed in business or his Church calling, but if he fails in his home he will face eternity in disappointment. … Home is the place where the Lord intended a father’s greatest influence to be felt” (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 509–10).

Quote

“The Lord says in definite terms: ‘Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shall cleave unto her and none else.’ (D&C 42:22.)

“The words none else eliminate everyone and everything. The spouse then becomes preeminent in the life of the husband or wife, and neither social life nor occupational life nor political life nor any other interest nor person nor thing shall ever take precedence over the companion spouse” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 310–11).

Quote

“When we put God first, all other things fall into their proper place or drop out of our lives. Our love of the Lord will govern the claims of our affection, the demands on our time, the interests we pursue, and the order of our priorities” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1988, 13; or Ensign, May 1988, 4).

https://www.lds.org/study/manual/eternal-marriage-student-manual/priorities-and-balance?lang=eng

[Calm]

Found this just now, do other states and countries have similar?

https://utah.lds.org/acp/bc/Utah Area/PD60007790_000 UtahArea-Card.pdf

Formatting means .I can't copy/paste.

It list 4 priorities for the Utah area, including live the gospel of Jesus Christ, gather Israel through missionary work, care for the poor and needy, enable the salvation of our kindred dead.

Also talk that presents the typical suggested priority order...God first, family, service to others in Church and community, temporal work...

https://www.lds.org/church/news/seventy-shares-four-priorities-to-balance-in-a-busy-life?lang=eng&_r=1

Edited March 30, 2019 by Calm

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

If this is the case the church needs to change it. Through the years it has been all about the church and one of the huge fallouts is the ex-LDS that go onto becoming Atheist. They're lucky if they can be agnostic, and hold some hope for a God, if that. Not saying an Atheist is bad, they're probably some of the nicest people actually. They still have their moral compass, they aren't going to become these evildoers because they lost the belief.

When we covenant to sacrifice all that we have to the COJCOLDS, and not to the Saviour/God, that's a problem in the temple. It's time we focus on God/Jesus at the forefront. I know the church is working on that because they see the problem. I'm sure I'm going to get feedback against this, but it's shall I say, IMO.

BTW, my husband and I were somewhat like GG's mom and step dad. We tried to do everything the church asked us to do. Nightly scriptures/prayer/FHE, weekly Sacrament, all 3 hours, never saying no to callings, never letting our kids try to get out of going. Now all of my children are inactive, the hate the church now. Maybe it's because we did that, and left out more fun times and we really should have taught them to have a relationship first and foremost with God, not the church. And I think I was doing it more for my in laws to make them happy, or maybe to look the part. So sad really, and I do understand that most people in the church do concentrate on the Lord.

I’d invite you to consider the Church is changing...trying to help members realize it’s all about their relationship with Deity, and refocusing the Church on its proper role—to point us to Deity and assist us in our quest to find, and commune with Them.

Fewer meetings

Come Follow (the Savior)

Characterizing our discipleship as “home center, Church supported”

Inviting us to remember whose Church this is 

Ending relationships not wholly spiritual (e.g. Scouting)

Reminding us that personal revelation is required to navigate mortality.

Many look at these steps in isolation and try to ascribe some independent rationale for each one.

Others see them as a coordinated effort with the single purpose described above.

Edited March 30, 2019 by let’s roll

[Robert F. Smith]

16 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

............................Ending relationships not wholly spiritual (e.g. Scouting)..........................................

Sounds like a very one-dimensional approach.  Is LDS theology dualistic rather than monistic?  Is there really an either/or set of options:  secular versus spiritual, temporal versus eternal?  Or are we part of a material universe which is unified and coherent?  Is there really a distinction between being a lawyer and a temple worker?  Or can one be both at different times of the week?

Maybe I'm not understanding your point.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

As taught in the past by Church leaders our highest priorities are not to be the Church in and of itself:

https://www.lds.org/study/manual/eternal-marriage-student-manual/priorities-and-balance?lang=eng

Here is a youtube I'm sure you've seen that the leaders at the time, had Bro. Poelman totally do over and cut out things he'd said the first time in conference. There was even a laugh track. Interesting that the thing Bro. Poelman was trying to teach in the first talk is exactly what we are discussing on this thread. Less church and more independence to think for ourselves and lean unto God more. Now Pres. Nelson seems to be leaning toward this, but maybe the cutting out of pageants etc. might have gone too far, maybe a happy medium would have been better, IMO, as far as cultural things, but I miss those road show days, haha. But I've no idea, nor do I have revelations like a lot of people do. I mean this in a good way, people out there really do get inspired. One person I'm listening to is Al Carraway, or the tattooed Mormon. She is wonderful. And her focus is on the Lord/God more, although she sometimes gets stressed out too, and feeling not good enough.

ETA: The two individal talks are below, someone must have recorded the first on their VHS.

original talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XJp2NdSUUI 

redone and published: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aft5KomzgAE

 

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Tacenda

[Joshua Valentine]

Yes, anyone who takes the claims of the LDS Church seriously:  God´s One True Church, Priesthood, Prophets/revelation, Leadership interpretation of scripture and doctrine (with all the ¨be ye perfect¨ means ¨perfect¨ and ¨perfection is attainable¨), are going to either going to compromise and kid themselves (that their doing ¨enough¨ or ¨trying¨) or burnout.  But lets not blame the members, as if this is their fault.

 

When one is taught that their witness proves this is the one true church and that its prophet is true then is told by those prophets that all commandments must be obeyed and that no commandment is given that a way is not provided for you to fulfill it, then it is the leadership at fault, not the member.

Also, just because things may be changing, doesn´t make the past right.

Also, @Calm and @let’s roll, there´s a big difference between teaching family/spouse/Deity first priorities and not making the LDS Church part of the necessary ingredients for fulfilling those ¨higher¨ priorities in practice. In fact, since burnout is nothing new, and the statements you´ve found have been around just as the problem persists or worsens and the same ¨perfection is perfection¨ teachings have been given only goes to undermine their sincerity, their effectiveness, or your interpretation of the balanced-better priorities.

[Glenn101]

I think that a lot of the problem lies in the fact that we have risen far above the mostly survival mode of existence that we have time for introspection and self flagellation with onlookers willing to help us by pointing out all the things we are doing wrong, and all of the things, the new moral fads that we are not doing correctly. It is easy to despair of ever "getting it right." And maybe we haven't listened to all of the lessons that that our leaders have been expounding to us over the years and have rather concentrated upon the negative aspects and have not gained a balanced perspective on the Gospel and on our own lives.

Glenn

[JAHS]

10 hours ago, Jean-Luc Picard said:

Makes sense to me. I find the most literalistic members fall hard and have the most pain when a paradigm shift happens.

From Fowler, maybe they are hard core stage 3. Their devotion is a barrier to seeing stage 4 and ultimately stage 5/6. 

The problem I see is that the Church is setting many members up to fail. There are rules for everything, we know almost exactly how the past happened, what the present should entail, and what will happen after this life. All tied in a nice bow.

Unfortunately, when the wrapping paper comes off in the corner and it isn't exactly what was expected underneath. It is hard to ignore the corner with the missing paper.

I have a feeling that much of this can be attributed to the member's own personality type. I know that since this church is run by imperfect people I expect to see the wrapping come off in places.  But I guess I am able to ignore such things and realize that most of the things our leaders do and say are inspired of God and that there is nothing better on this earth that can help me get closer to God and heaven. I guess at the moment I am a stage 4 person. A work in progress.

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, JAHS said:

Dan Peterson made an interesting observation in his Patheos blog today:
"Among those who leave the Church, there are also people who do so not because they fall short of the mark in any simple and obvious way, but because, in a sense, they look “beyond the mark.”  They don’t forsake the Church because of insufficient belief or devotion but — in a certain way — because they overdo it."

I have the feeling there some less active or ex church members who fall into a category similar to one he talked about. To state it simply some of these members take the church too d..n seriously.
They believe everything; they get burned out trying to do everything they are told they should do; they are fanatical in their belief and activity in the church. They have worn themselves out trying to be perfect to the point where they feel guilty for not being perfect. They can't do anymore and so they give up and then find a reason to leave it. And such members would easily find reasons to leave.
Now, before I am accused of stereotyping all ex-members, I admit that this represents a fairly small but real group that I have been witness to.

Hmmm.  So members believe, make the Church/Jesus the center of their lives, they believe the mantra of "follow the brethren" the believe the mantra "lengthen your stride" or "just do it."  They believe in "Serving with their heart, mind and strength" and their lives reflect it.  They believe the scripture that tells them to be perfect even as Jesus was or his Father.  So they are worn out and then find an excuse to leave?  I think you are wrong. Even if your post only reflects a small group. And I think Peterson's comment is simple BS.  I think he, and you, are looking for ways to confirm your own bias.

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, let’s roll said:

I’d suggest it’s even simpler than the OP’s explanation.  The OP’s point is that sometimes folks take the Church too seriously.

IMHO, if your sole focus is on the Church, you’re almost certain to struggle, they’ll always be something missing.  It’s not about the Church.  Never has been, never will be. 

It’s about Deity.  Always has been, always will be.

The Church can play an important role— point you to Deity and provide an outlet to exercise the fruits of your witness, but it is not the giver of that witness.  That witness comes only from Deity. 

That is not what the Church leaders teach. They equate deity with the Church.

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

If this is the case the church needs to change it. Through the years it has been all about the church and one of the huge fallouts is the ex-LDS that go onto becoming Atheist. They're lucky if they can be agnostic, and hold some hope for a God, if that. Not saying an Atheist is bad, they're probably some of the nicest people actually. They still have their moral compass, they aren't going to become these evildoers because they lost the belief.

When we covenant to sacrifice all that we have to the COJCOLDS, and not to the Saviour/God, that's a problem in the temple. It's time we focus on God/Jesus at the forefront. I know the church is working on that because they see the problem. I'm sure I'm going to get feedback against this, but it's shall I say, IMO.

BTW, my husband and I were somewhat like GG's mom and step dad. We tried to do everything the church asked us to do. Nightly scriptures/prayer/FHE, weekly Sacrament, all 3 hours, never saying no to callings, never letting our kids try to get out of going. Now all of my children are inactive, the hate the church now. Maybe it's because we did that, and left out more fun times and we really should have taught them to have a relationship first and foremost with God, not the church. And I think I was doing it more for my in laws to make them happy, or maybe to look the part. So sad really, and I do understand that most people in the church do concentrate on the Lord.

I can't give you a like so I want to say this is spot on.

[MDalby]

Any virtue taken to an extreme can become a vice.

[let’s roll]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sounds like a very one-dimensional approach.  Is LDS theology dualistic rather than monistic?  Is there really an either/or set of options:  secular versus spiritual, temporal versus eternal?  Or are we part of a material universe which is unified and coherent?  Is there really a distinction between being a lawyer and a temple worker?  Or can one be both at different times of the week?

Maybe I'm not understanding your point.

Members are being invited take ownership of, and manage, their discipleship.  The Church is giving the members both additional time and latitude in order to facilitate the members’ efforts in doing so.  Thus fewer “mandated” activities, e.g. Scouting, and the activities that remain are related directly to discipleship.

Nothing wrong with Scouting per se and many members may opt to continue to participate.  All of us will have roles and responsibilities not directly related to our discipleship, but I trust we all strive to carry out those roles and responsibilities with the wisdom and humility attendant to discipleship.  I’m often a lawyer and temple worker on the same day.

[let’s roll]

11 hours ago, Joshua Valentine said:

Yes, anyone who takes the claims of the LDS Church seriously:  God´s One True Church, Priesthood, Prophets/revelation, Leadership interpretation of scripture and doctrine (with all the ¨be ye perfect¨ means ¨perfect¨ and ¨perfection is attainable¨), are going to either going to compromise and kid themselves (that their doing ¨enough¨ or ¨trying¨) or burnout.  But lets not blame the members, as if this is their fault.

 

When one is taught that their witness proves this is the one true church and that its prophet is true then is told by those prophets that all commandments must be obeyed and that no commandment is given that a way is not provided for you to fulfill it, then it is the leadership at fault, not the member.

Also, just because things may be changing, doesn´t make the past right.

Also, @Calm and @let’s roll, there´s a big difference between teaching family/spouse/Deity first priorities and not making the LDS Church part of the necessary ingredients for fulfilling those ¨higher¨ priorities in practice. In fact, since burnout is nothing new, and the statements you´ve found have been around just as the problem persists or worsens and the same ¨perfection is perfection¨ teachings have been given only goes to undermine their sincerity, their effectiveness, or your interpretation of the balanced-better priorities.

I think any teaching is susceptible of being misunderstood or mismanaged without Divine guidance.  With it one is safe regardless of the teaching.  Without it one is vulnerable regardless of the teaching.

Another compelling reason to act on God’s invitation to seek the wisdom He gives us when we ask with the requisite intent.  Wisdom or confusion.  Our choice.

And to act on the Savior’s invitation to come unto Him and receive the rest only He can provide.  Rest or restlessness.  Our choice.

[JAHS]

31 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Hmmm.  So members believe, make the Church/Jesus the center of their lives, they believe the mantra of "follow the brethren" the believe the mantra "lengthen your stride" or "just do it."  They believe in "Serving with their heart, mind and strength" and their lives reflect it.  They believe the scripture that tells them to be perfect even as Jesus was or his Father.  So they are worn out and then find an excuse to leave?  I think you are wrong. Even if your post only reflects a small group. And I think Peterson's comment is simple BS.  I think he, and you, are looking for ways to confirm your own bias.

How can I be wrong if I personally know people this has happened to? We don't have to be perfect now but we are supposed to be on the way to it. Some expect perfection from themselves now and from the church now. They leave no wiggle room for the occasional mistakes and disappointments.

[CV75]

16 hours ago, JAHS said:

Dan Peterson made an interesting observation in his Patheos blog today:
"Among those who leave the Church, there are also people who do so not because they fall short of the mark in any simple and obvious way, but because, in a sense, they look “beyond the mark.”  They don’t forsake the Church because of insufficient belief or devotion but — in a certain way — because they overdo it."

I have the feeling there some less active or ex church members who fall into a category similar to one he talked about. To state it simply some of these members take the church too d..n seriously.
They believe everything; they get burned out trying to do everything they are told they should do; they are fanatical in their belief and activity in the church. They have worn themselves out trying to be perfect to the point where they feel guilty for not being perfect. They can't do anymore and so they give up and then find a reason to leave it. And such members would easily find reasons to leave.
Now, before I am accused of stereotyping all ex-members, I admit that this represents a fairly small but real group that I have been witness to.

I think it is easy to get burned out when the true and living vehicle of the Gospel is all that is taken to be true and living... the Gospel is more true and living than the vehicle carrying the word of God. The vehicle indeed carries a few indispensable essentials (keys, covenants and ordinances), but more essential is that we have a true and living companionship with the Holy Ghost with the aim of returning to true and living Christ and His Father along with as many true and living fellow citizens as possible.

[Robert F. Smith]

43 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Members are being invited take ownership of, and manage, their discipleship.  The Church is giving the members both additional time and latitude in order to facilitate the members’ efforts in doing so.  Thus fewer “mandated” activities, e.g. Scouting, and the activities that remain are related directly to discipleship.

Nothing wrong with Scouting per se and many members may opt to continue to participate.  All of us will have roles and responsibilities not directly related to our discipleship, but I trust we all strive to carry out those roles and responsibilities with the wisdom and humility attendant to discipleship.  I’m often a lawyer and temple worker on the same day.

Fair enough.   I am sure that something will be found to replace Scouting for the coming year.  In addition, I hope that we will continue to have the annual "Trek" for the youth, and Summer Camp.