Let’s talk about sin of judging others

[HappyJackWagon]

15 minutes ago, USU78 said:

He's a 17-year-old doofus with terrible anger issues.  Used to be my HT companion.  Very unhappy boy.  And, yes, alas, "the angry homosexual" is kind of a bromide.  Has been for at least my adult life.  Can't speak for others' experiences. 

It sounds like the two of you really hit it off. Good evidence of HT as a mentoring program

Just because a caricature exists, doesn't mean you should exploit it at someone else's expense.

I had to look up "bromide" because I'd never heard it used that way. The 2nd definition (and only applicable one) is...

Quote

a trite and unoriginal idea or remark, typically intended to soothe or placate.

I do agree that your characterization was trite but I'm not sure who you are trying to sooth or placate here. Just some friendly advice: you should avoid rude generalizations like the one you used. It says more about you, than them.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

The bolds (mine) in your post, made me think of this meme I had recently shared on FB:

I would take that analogy more seriously if lettuce was self-aware and had agency. I would also have to reevaluate my love for Chinese Chicken Salad.

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I would take that analogy more seriously if lettuce was self-aware and had agency. I would also have to reevaluate my love for Chinese Chicken Salad.

🙄😁

[USU78]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It sounds like the two of you really hit it off. Good evidence of HT as a mentoring program

Just because a caricature exists, doesn't mean you should exploit it at someone else's expense.

I had to look up "bromide" because I'd never heard it used that way. The 2nd definition (and only applicable one) is...

I do agree that your characterization was trite but I'm not sure who you are trying to sooth or placate here. Just some friendly advice: you should avoid rude generalizations like the one you used. It says more about you, than them.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

.............................

My theory is this: when people use the word judge, often they are really saying “dislike.” ................................. 

I think it’s asking too much of humans to not have opinions about liking or disliking isolated behavior or appearance.  I think we sin only when we make assumptions. ...............

What I dislike is being judged harshly for having opinions, even if I am not actually  judging those about whom my opinion is expressed (not liking the Wrangler jeans someone is wearing, but not faulting the person).  I often find that my personal preference is converted into a personal attack by the recipient of my preference.  This leads me to be very reticent about expressing my own preferences.  Instead I try to be as impersonal as possible in judgment.  However, that is automatically interpreted as arrogance.  You can't win for losing.  😞

[MustardSeed]

36 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What I dislike is being judged harshly for having opinions, even if I am not actually  judging those about whom my opinion is expressed (not liking the Wrangler jeans someone is wearing, but not faulting the person).  I often find that my personal preference is converted into a personal attack by the recipient of my preference.  This leads me to be very reticent about expressing my own preferences.  Instead I try to be as impersonal as possible in judgment.  However, that is automatically interpreted as arrogance.  You can't win for losing.  😞

Wrangler butts drive me nuts. Not in a good way.   I used to refuse dates with boys who wore cowboy boots.  It's preference. 

Now most of my friends are cowboys.  Who knew?  But I still prefer Levis.    and my family all refer to men who wear bling jeans with heavy white stitching as "hummer dudes."  We imagine such men drive Hummers.  Now THATS judgmental.  

[filovirus]

It was always my understanding that when we are told to "judge not", the judgement has more to do with worthiness. We should not judge how worthy or unworthy someone is in the sight of God. That is between that person and God. A bishop is called as a "judge in Israel" to help in the repentance process, but the rest of us should abstain for judgement.

If I see someone who drives a beat-up car, my likely conclusion is that that person is relatively poor. That is not a judgement in the biblical sense because it has nothing to do with worthiness. If my conclusion is that that person drives a beat up car because they have sinned and God is punishing them financially, that would be the judgement we are told not to do.

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, filovirus said:

It was always my understanding that when we are told to "judge not", the judgement has more to do with worthiness. We should not judge how worthy or unworthy someone is in the sight of God. That is between that person and God. A bishop is called as a "judge in Israel" to help in the repentance process, but the rest of us should abstain for judgement.

If I see someone who drives a beat-up car, my likely conclusion is that that person is relatively poor. That is not a judgement in the biblical sense because it has nothing to do with worthiness. If my conclusion is that that person drives a beat up car because they have sinned and God is punishing them financially, that would be the judgement we are told not to do.

What if they drive a beat up car because they are just cheap? Asking for a friend....

[poptart]

On 3/25/2019 at 6:23 AM, MustardSeed said:

I married into a family who talks a lot about being judged.  When I was young it got me thinking a lot abou this concept. 

My theory is this: when people use the word judge, often they are really saying “dislike.” I don’t think it’s realistic to like everything.

The following is just my point of view: 

(Sin:)  she drives a beat up car.  She must be trashy. I don’t like her. 

(Opinion, not a sin:) that is a beat up car.  I don’t like beat up cars. 

(Sin:) He  is wearing hiked up dad jeans.  He must be a complete dork.

(Opinion, not sin:) I’m turned off by that dudes hiked up dad jeans. 

 

I think it’s asking too much of humans to not have opinions about liking or disliking isolated behavior or appearance.  I think we sin only when we make assumptions. 

I know this is a weird post but I think about this a lot. Interested to discuss this more deeply. 

Hmmm, if it was me i'd be thinking something along the lines of "She's driving a beat up car, maybe she's poor, maybe she doesn't like flaunting her wealth.  Better yet, maybe she has some streetsmarts and considering how property crime is going up she doesn't want to make herself a target vs. the idiot driving a BMW he/she can't afford."

[Navidad]

22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

The bolds (mine) in your post, made me think of this meme I had recently shared on FB:

Sometimes judgmental folks are simply saying "lettuce alone!"

[Navidad]

22 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said:

 

 

On 3/25/2019 at 9:13 AM, MustardSeed said:

 Sometimes I think people cry “don’t judge me” when really what they are saying is “don’t reject me” .  

This is well said. A lot of times at church we would sing "Just as I am" - an invitational hymn, as we called it.  The idea was that we could come to Christ just as we are - warts and all and receive the gift of grace. That was so comforting. I think that is part of the reason I am so susceptible to reacting to some of the Saints' doctrine. In my mind when you reject my baptism, my having the complete gift of the Holy Spirit, my fifty years of ministry and my denomination as not being of God, whether for doctrinal reasons or not, I come to the conclusion that all of that in my life is being judged, found deficient, and rejected by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its members, and its doctrine. You write the words "Mene Mene tekel upharsin" on the walls of my life. So, I become super-sensitive to hearing anything that smacks of that. Many of you, on the other hand have no idea what I am talking about because you can't understand how those views could be received as unkind, rejecting, and arrogant. They are simply God's truth as revealed to you about me and every other non-LDS Christian in the world. So, I believe I am hyper-sensitive and that many of you are less than empathic in understanding how I feel. Sometimes I think the EQ on this forum is less than optimal! 🙂 That is a challenging combination. I am trying to work on it from my end. I really want the LDS Church to accept me "Just as I am" as Christ has, so that I can join. I guess that simply isn't ever going to happen. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Navidad

[MustardSeed]

26 minutes ago, Navidad said:

 

This is well said. A lot of times at church we would sing "Just as I am" - an invitational hymn, as we called it.  The idea was that we could come to Christ just as we are - warts and all and receive the gift of grace. That was so comforting. I think that is part of the reason I am so susceptible to reacting to some of the Saints' doctrine. In my mind when you reject my baptism, my having the complete gift of the Holy Spirit, my fifty years of ministry and my denomination as not being of God, whether for doctrinal reasons or not, I come to the conclusion that all of that in my life is being judged, found deficient, and rejected by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its members, and its doctrine. You write the words "Mene Mene tekel upharsin" on the walls of my life. So, I become super-sensitive to hearing anything that smacks of that. Many of you, on the other hand have no idea what I am talking about because you can't understand how those views could be received as unkind, rejecting, and arrogant. They are simply God's truth as revealed to you about me and every other non-LDS Christian in the world. So, I believe I am hyper-sensitive and that many of you are less than empathic in understanding how I feel. Sometimes I think the EQ on this forum is less than optimal! 🙂 That is a challenging combination. I am trying to work on it from my end. I really want the LDS Church to accept me "Just as I am" as Christ has, so that I can join. I guess that simply isn't ever going to happen. 

That’s unfortunate.  

 

[alter idem]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

 

This is well said. A lot of times at church we would sing "Just as I am" - an invitational hymn, as we called it.  The idea was that we could come to Christ just as we are - warts and all and receive the gift of grace. That was so comforting. I think that is part of the reason I am so susceptible to reacting to some of the Saints' doctrine. In my mind when you reject my baptism, my having the complete gift of the Holy Spirit, my fifty years of ministry and my denomination as not being of God, whether for doctrinal reasons or not, I come to the conclusion that all of that in my life is being judged, found deficient, and rejected by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its members, and its doctrine. You write the words "Mene Mene tekel upharsin" on the walls of my life. So, I become super-sensitive to hearing anything that smacks of that. Many of you, on the other hand have no idea what I am talking about because you can't understand how those views could be received as unkind, rejecting, and arrogant. They are simply God's truth as revealed to you about me and every other non-LDS Christian in the world. So, I believe I am hyper-sensitive and that many of you are less than empathic in understanding how I feel. Sometimes I think the EQ on this forum is less than optimal! 🙂 That is a challenging combination. I am trying to work on it from my end. I really want the LDS Church to accept me "Just as I am" as Christ has, so that I can join. I guess that simply isn't ever going to happen. 

I'm sorry that you are offended by our doctrine on Priesthood Authority.  As I see it, there's nothing we can do about that, because this is one of the basic foundations of our Faith which we are not going to abandon. 

So, I guess the choice lies with you.  If you want to continue to associate with members of the CofJCofLDS, and not feel offended, you'll have to let that go, because the church isn't going to change  on this.  If you can't let it go, then it's going to be tough to feel comfortable in our meetings and around us. 

By your comment--'I really want the LDS church to accept me 'Just as I am' as Christ has, so that I can join'--are you saying that you want your baptism within another faith to count for membership in the CofJCofLDS?  If so, then yes, you are right, it's never going to happen because we believe that Baptism must be performed by one having priesthood authority and that can only be found in the CofJCofLDS.  It's not a matter of 'not accepting' or 'judging' you, it's simply a truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  And if you reject the doctrine of Priesthood Authority found in the teachings of the CofJCofLDS, then you really are not prepared to join anyway.  Of course you are welcome to worship with members in our meetings, baptism is not necessary for that, but baptism is necessary for many other blessings that come through membership in the church.

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, alter idem said:

I'm sorry that you are offended by our doctrine on Priesthood Authority.  As I see it, there's nothing we can do about that, because this is one of the basic foundations of our Faith which we are not going to abandon. 

So, I guess the choice lies with you.  If you want to continue to associate with members of the CofJCofLDS, and not feel offended, you'll have to let that go, because the church isn't going to change  on this.  If you can't let it go, then it's going to be tough to feel comfortable in our meetings and around us. 

By your comment--'I really want the LDS church to accept me 'Just as I am' as Christ has, so that I can join'--are you saying that you want your baptism within another faith to count for membership in the CofJCofLDS?  If so, then yes, you are right, it's never going to happen because we believe that Baptism must be performed by one having priesthood authority and that can only be found in the CofJCofLDS.  It's not a matter of 'not accepting' or 'judging' you, it's simply a truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  And if you reject the doctrine of Priesthood Authority found in the teachings of the CofJCofLDS, then you really are not prepared to join anyway.  Of course you are welcome to worship with members in our meetings, baptism is not necessary for that, but baptism is necessary for many other blessings that come through membership in the church.

Thanks for your kind and thoughtful message. I am beginning to better understand that we may never be comfortable in a LDS ward. There is no box we can check as "faithful non-members." Outside of being an investigator, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has no role for the faithful non-member. This is a very new concept for me. I am used to churches where 30% or more of the congregants are not members and that is fine with everyone. All the opportunities for ministry are open to them except administering the ordinances. There are many similar and some different aspects of our doctrines. I hope that in a Church that prides itself on continual revelation and evolution of doctrine, "never" is something that never happens. 🙂  I would have no objection to being rebaptized for membership purposes. I cannot accept it as a pre-condition for salvific purposes, since like you, I am a strong believer in "the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ." I have been for sixty-five years. The Lord has blessed my life in so many ways. The Holy Spirit has led my wife and I constantly throughout our almost fifty year marriage. Oh, and a few weeks ago my Mennonite wife and I beat four LDS couples in our annual ward Valentines party "Newly-Wed Game!" How about that?

Thank you again for replying to my post and for the kindness of your reply. It is much appreciated. Blessings!

Edited March 26, 2019 by Navidad

[USU78]

53 minutes ago, Navidad said:

 I am beginning to better understand that we may never be comfortable in a LDS ward. There is no box we can check as "faithful non-members."

My son's sister-in-law (unbaptized), who lives in Tuxpan, MX, teaches Primary.  She had no problem checking a box.

And, please note, there've been hundreds if not thousands of non-member men over the years who've accepted Church callings to work in the Scouting program.  They have had no problem checking a box.

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, USU78 said:

My son's sister-in-law (unbaptized), who lives in Tuxpan, MX, teaches Primary.  She had no problem checking a box.

That surprises me, though Scouting is pretty typical in my experience...unless it is Nursery.

I would say the Church has no set institutional role for "faithful nonmembers" in the sense everyone knows how they will fit in, knows what to expect mostly like a new convert would be able to find out quickly, but that also means there is probably leeway in what local leaders can set up, like your son's sister-in-law teaching Primary.

I may be wrong though as it has been awhile since I read Handbook 1, which may provide details of what is and isn't recommended or allowed.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Calm

[Navidad]

1 minute ago, USU78 said:

My son's sister-in-law (unbaptized), who lives in Tuxpan, MX, teaches Primary.  She had no problem checking a box.

And, please note, there've been hundreds if not thousands of non-member men over the years who've accepted Church callings to work in the Scouting program.  They have had no problem checking a box.

Hi. Thanks for your reply. I have been told I can serve in scouting (doesn't exist anymore), sing in the choir (we don't have one), and work on the physical plant. So I vacuum and clean toilets. The bishop introduces my wife and I as non-members of the Church, but as members of the ward. That feels good. He is a wonderful Godly man. I have been through all the manuals and it seems that what I have been told is pretty true. My wife would love to teach primary. She retired from teaching little ones for 30 years. That doesn't seem to be an option in our ward. Perhaps it is a ward by ward thing. I did get to sing a solo in our stake Christmas concert in German to honor our Mennonite neighbors. As I said in another post, I pastored where at least 30% of our church were non-members. All ministries in the church were open to them except serving the ordinances. That was my paradigm; so I have learned to accept the difference. We are not even allowed to tithe! We tithe elsewhere. That makes me sad too. We do help with special projects, but apparently the bishop is not allowed to accept our tithes. It looks like you may be a Utah State grad. They just landed a gem when they hired Patrick Mason into the Arrington chair. He is a wonderful guy! He even asked me to pray before the presidential banquet at last year's MHA conference! That felt really good. Blessings. . . 

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

 

This is well said. A lot of times at church we would sing "Just as I am" - an invitational hymn, as we called it.  The idea was that we could come to Christ just as we are - warts and all and receive the gift of grace. That was so comforting. I think that is part of the reason I am so susceptible to reacting to some of the Saints' doctrine. In my mind when you reject my baptism, my having the complete gift of the Holy Spirit, my fifty years of ministry and my denomination as not being of God, whether for doctrinal reasons or not, I come to the conclusion that all of that in my life is being judged, found deficient, and rejected by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its members, and its doctrine. You write the words "Mene Mene tekel upharsin" on the walls of my life. So, I become super-sensitive to hearing anything that smacks of that. Many of you, on the other hand have no idea what I am talking about because you can't understand how those views could be received as unkind, rejecting, and arrogant. They are simply God's truth as revealed to you about me and every other non-LDS Christian in the world. So, I believe I am hyper-sensitive and that many of you are less than empathic in understanding how I feel. Sometimes I think the EQ on this forum is less than optimal! 🙂 That is a challenging combination. I am trying to work on it from my end. I really want the LDS Church to accept me "Just as I am" as Christ has, so that I can join. I guess that simply isn't ever going to happen. 

I've had many callings in primary and this was one of my favorite songs in sharing and singing time, written by Carol Lynn Pearson. It's "I'll Walk With You". When you mentioned the song, "Just As I Am", that you sing in your church, it made me think of this song. But the illustrator portrayed it rather simply, because of it's audience of young children. But I think Carol Lynn had more in mind, like maybe when her husband came out gay she was thinking of him, and several others that feel like they don't fit in.

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Tacenda

[Navidad]

35 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've had many callings in primary and this was one of my favorite songs in sharing and singing time, written by Carol Lynn Pearson. It's "I'll Walk With You". When you mentioned the song, "Just As I Am", that you sing in your church, it made me think of this song. But the illustrator portrayed it rather simply, because of it's audience of young children. But I think Carol Lynn had more in mind, like maybe when her husband came out gay she was thinking of him, and several others that feel like they don't fit in.

 

Wow, that is terrific. Thanks also for the additional information. Sometimes we all need someone to simply walk with us for a while. That is the essential oil of Christianity. When one is in tears and the other says, too bad, that is just our doctrine, it certainly isn't loving. There has to be a better answer than that! Oh, and Saints aren't the only ones guilty of that! Methinks that one doesn't have to compromise one's doctrine to be loving and say, I'll walk with you!

Edited March 27, 2019 by Navidad

[alter idem]

16 hours ago, Navidad said:

Thanks for your kind and thoughtful message. I am beginning to better understand that we may never be comfortable in a LDS ward. There is no box we can check as "faithful non-members." Outside of being an investigator, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has no role for the faithful non-member. This is a very new concept for me. I am used to churches where 30% or more of the congregants are not members and that is fine with everyone. All the opportunities for ministry are open to them except administering the ordinances. There are many similar and some different aspects of our doctrines. I hope that in a Church that prides itself on continual revelation and evolution of doctrine, "never" is something that never happens. 🙂  I would have no objection to being rebaptized for membership purposes. I cannot accept it as a pre-condition for salvific purposes, since like you, I am a strong believer in "the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ." I have been for sixty-five years. The Lord has blessed my life in so many ways. The Holy Spirit has led my wife and I constantly throughout our almost fifty year marriage. Oh, and a few weeks ago my Mennonite wife and I beat four LDS couples in our annual ward Valentines party "Newly-Wed Game!" How about that?

Thank you again for replying to my post and for the kindness of your reply. It is much appreciated. Blessings!

I think one reason you feel uncomfortable attending your ward is that you harbor some expectations that are causing some trouble.  There's no question you can be welcome and comfortable in a ward even though you are not baptized members--plenty of people do fit this and they are accepted and feel welcomed--even attending their same ward for decades, never accepting baptism; but there is an unspoken understanding that while the person wants to fellowship with the Saints, they don't want to make the eternal commitment to join them through Baptism into the CofJCofLDS.   That's how I see you--you don't want to be baptized into the CofJC, but you want to be accepted as a full-fledged member, and you have preconceived notions, due to your past experiences with other Christian churches that this is how it should be.  The problem is, it's just not the same for the CoJC, because of our claims of being the 'Only true and living church on the earth' (D&C 1) and our claims of divine Priesthood Power and Authority, which we believe and teach all other churches lack.  We don't deny that members of other churches can enjoy the spirit to teach and bless them, but we do teach and believe that since other churches' baptisms are not performed by someone holding true priesthood authority, they cannot bestow the RIGHT to have the Holy Ghost to be with them always and lack the real binding covenant on earth and in heaven that they have taken upon them the Name of Christ.  That is the reason we cannot accept other churches' baptisms as binding and valid.  And that is why we perform Baptism by proxy for the dead.  We believe, for baptism to be binding and valid in Heaven and on earth, it must be performed for a person who is prepared and willing to accept this ordinance and it is performed in the proper manner, by one having authority.

Navidad, you say you 'have no objection to being rebaptised for membership purposes', however  you 'cannot accept it (baptism) as a pre-condition for salvific purposes' and this is why you simply aren't prepared or willing to accept baptism into the JofCJofLDS, because you lack a testimony, a conviction of our truth claims.  You don't believe them or understand them. You reject them, in favor of your own traditions/beleifs.  And, that's fine if you just want to attend our meetings and socialize with our members.  But I agree with your Bishop, you shouldn't be teaching classes (if it's alright in the handbook to do so)(except to teach most of the Nursery lessons, since most of them are basic Christian teachings you do have a testimony of), because you reject a basic foundational tenet of our faith, you have your own set of beliefs on Priesthood Authority and Baptism and they are in contradiction to what our church teaches.  Does that makes sense?  I'm certain that they welcome your desire to help out and fellowship with them, but they would be foolish to ask you to teach religious lessons or preach when you have your own religious beliefs which reject some of the fundamental doctrines of the CofJC.  I hope you won't take offense at that, but accept that it is as it should be.  Personally, I'd enjoy having ward members like you and your wife who want to participate and socialize--and I hope you can understand and cut your ward some slack for them not giving you and your wife opportunities to teach and preach in the religious church setting.

[HappyJackWagon]

52 minutes ago, alter idem said:

I think one reason you feel uncomfortable attending your ward is that you harbor some expectations that are causing some trouble.  There's no question you can be welcome and comfortable in a ward even though you are not baptized members--plenty of people do fit this and they are accepted and feel welcomed--even attending their same ward for decades, never accepting baptism; but there is an unspoken understanding that while the person wants to fellowship with the Saints, they don't want to make the eternal commitment to join them through Baptism into the CofJCofLDS.   That's how I see you--you don't want to be baptized into the CofJC, but you want to be accepted as a full-fledged member, and you have preconceived notions, due to your past experiences with other Christian churches that this is how it should be.  The problem is, it's just not the same for the CoJC, because of our claims of being the 'Only true and living church on the earth' (D&C 1) and our claims of divine Priesthood Power and Authority, which we believe and teach all other churches lack.  We don't deny that members of other churches can enjoy the spirit to teach and bless them, but we do teach and believe that since other churches' baptisms are not performed by someone holding true priesthood authority, they cannot bestow the RIGHT to have the Holy Ghost to be with them always and lack the real binding covenant on earth and in heaven that they have taken upon them the Name of Christ.  That is the reason we cannot accept other churches' baptisms as binding and valid.  And that is why we perform Baptism by proxy for the dead.  We believe, for baptism to be binding and valid in Heaven and on earth, it must be performed for a person who is prepared and willing to accept this ordinance and it is performed in the proper manner, by one having authority.

Navidad, you say you 'have no objection to being rebaptised for membership purposes', however  you 'cannot accept it (baptism) as a pre-condition for salvific purposes' and this is why you simply aren't prepared or willing to accept baptism into the JofCJofLDS, because you lack a testimony, a conviction of our truth claims.  You don't believe them or understand them. You reject them, in favor of your own traditions/beleifs.  And, that's fine if you just want to attend our meetings and socialize with our members.  But I agree with your Bishop, you shouldn't be teaching classes (if it's alright in the handbook to do so)(except to teach most of the Nursery lessons, since most of them are basic Christian teachings you do have a testimony of), because you reject a basic foundational tenet of our faith, you have your own set of beliefs on Priesthood Authority and Baptism and they are in contradiction to what our church teaches.  Does that makes sense?  I'm certain that they welcome your desire to help out and fellowship with them, but they would be foolish to ask you to teach religious lessons or preach when you have your own religious beliefs which reject some of the fundamental doctrines of the CofJC.  I hope you won't take offense at that, but accept that it is as it should be.  Personally, I'd enjoy having ward members like you and your wife who want to participate and socialize--and I hope you can understand and cut your ward some slack for them not giving you and your wife opportunities to teach and preach in the religious church setting.

I remember how proud I used to be about how open and welcoming the CoJCoLdS was. It felt like a badge of honor. My insular experience with only THE church warped my expectations about how it truly looks and feels to be welcoming. I believe the CoJCoLDS is welcoming to other members (especially ones who can check all the boxes) and I believe they are welcoming to non-members, but in a very conditional way. That conditional way used to make perfect sense to me. But as I've explored other faiths, and attended many different Christian denominations over the past few years I have come to the conclusion that THE church is one of the least welcoming church's I've experienced, precisely because it's such a conditional welcome/acceptance.

I feel for Navidad because he likely comes from a tradition that is more open and welcoming and can see how the church falls short in that area. Of course I could be projecting because I see how the church falls short in truly welcoming all people who desire to come unto Christ. I'm sure there are many explanations and justifications for why THE church is right for doing it the way they do. But that doesn't change the fact that to many people the church comes across as unwelcoming and unintentionally makes them feel unwanted. We can tell them their are wrong, or we can recognize that as a church we really come across that way sometimes.

So if the advice, is "we are unwelcoming to you, get used to it", there's not much more to say. If the church wants to try to do better, there is much room for improvement and people like Navidad would be very helpful in helping leaders see the church from a different POV.

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I remember how proud I used to be about how open and welcoming the CoJCoLdS was. It felt like a badge of honor. My insular experience with only THE church warped my expectations about how it truly looks and feels to be welcoming. I believe the CoJCoLDS is welcoming to other members (especially ones who can check all the boxes) and I believe they are welcoming to non-members, but in a very conditional way. That conditional way used to make perfect sense to me. But as I've explored other faiths, and attended many different Christian denominations over the past few years I have come to the conclusion that THE church is one of the least welcoming church's I've experienced, precisely because it's such a conditional welcome/acceptance.

I feel for Navidad because he likely comes from a tradition that is more open and welcoming and can see how the church falls short in that area. Of course I could be projecting because I see how the church falls short in truly welcoming all people who desire to come unto Christ. I'm sure there are many explanations and justifications for why THE church is right for doing it the way they do. But that doesn't change the fact that to many people the church comes across as unwelcoming and unintentionally makes them feel unwanted. We can tell them their are wrong, or we can recognize that as a church we really come across that way sometimes.

So if the advice, is "we are unwelcoming to you, get used to it", there's not much more to say. If the church wants to try to do better, there is much room for improvement and people like Navidad would be very helpful in helping leaders see the church from a different POV.

Saw this from a friend on FB. It looks like Pres. Nelson's quote can almost make a member feel like outsiders are a threat. This isn't good IMO. 

C/P'd all of the below:

Even within the LDS community it is oftentimes difficult to be a true Latter-day Saint.

"You will have days when you will be thoroughly discouraged. So, pray for courage not to give up! You will need that strength because it will become less and less popular to be a Latter-day Saint. Sadly, some whom you thought were your friends will betray you. And some things will simply seem unfair.

However, I promise you that as you follow Jesus Christ, you will find sustained peace and true joy. As you keep your covenants with increasing precision, and as you defend the Church and kingdom of God on the earth today, the Lord will bless you with strength and wisdom to accomplish the impossible."

Russell M. Nelson, Facebook 3/24/2016

[alter idem]

I'm just not sure what some of you want from the Church. 

Do you feel we are unwelcoming because we don't accept other churches' baptisms?  Are we unwelcoming because we don't give callings to teach to non-members who don't believe our doctrines?  Would we be more welcoming in your eyes if we stop claiming to be the Lord's church on earth and stop claiming Priesthood authority?  What doctrines do we need to abandon so that you will feel we are more 'welcoming'?

But, IMO, If that's what we have to do for some to perceive us as welcoming to non-members, then I'm sorry, but I don't think we can accommodate them in this.

'Welcoming' to me means we are sociable and friendly, encourage others to fellowship with us, invite them to activities and be their friends, partner with them for community needs. Maybe my ward is unusual, but we are  welcoming to other congregants, and so, my experience is that while we may not be perfect, and some wards are even failing at this, church members are encouraged to create this atmosphere in their wards and branches and it is what we strive for.  And there is always room for us to do better.

[USU78]

14 hours ago, Navidad said:

Wow, that is terrific. Thanks also for the additional information. Sometimes we all need someone to simply walk with us for a while. That is the essential oil of Christianity. When one is in tears and the other says, too bad, that is just our doctrine, it certainly isn't loving. There has to be a better answer than that! Oh, and Saints aren't the only ones guilty of that! Methinks that one doesn't have to compromise one's doctrine to be loving and say, I'll walk with you!

I'm having trouble finding the disagreement here.  Oh, except for the bolded part.  And if there's a more judgmental statement in this thread, I'm sure I missed it.  What could possibly motive you to impute such behavior to anybody on this board or to Mormons [sic] in general?

[Navidad]

44 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I'm having trouble finding the disagreement here.  Oh, except for the bolded part.  And if there's a more judgmental statement in this thread, I'm sure I missed it.  What could possibly motive you to impute such behavior to anybody on this board or to Mormons [sic] in general?

I am not imputing anything to Mormons in general. I am reflecting on my reality on this board in this and other threads and discussions I have had with some Saints in other settings over the past 30 years. On this board I have been called a son of Canaan, a follower of Baal, a wolf in sheep's clothing, an anti-Mormon, the enemy, etc. I have been told on numerous times "this is how it is, get over it." Those are some of the direct ones. The indirect ones are legion. There have also been kind folks who have tried to understand my stress and who have treated that pain with respect and empathy.

I am not trying to disagree with anyone. I am trying to describe the lonely walk of one Evangelical who is trying his best and maybe a little bit more to understand the doctrine and culture of the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There are so many mixed messages. So many "you'" statements. In doing that I do voice my observations, just like everyone else on this board. I am still however, after 18 months, hundreds of posts and an "excellent" rating, described as a "visitor" here; logically unworthy to enter into discussions because of my "other" status. It would be easier to a) walk away; or b) adopt a negative attitude that would define forever my relationship or lack there of with members of the Church. Right now I can't or won't do either. So I am stuck between being a brother in Christ and a follower of the Devil; a blasphemer; a "so-called Christian," one who can't possibly experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a complete way.

I am not a straw man; I am not a caricature of every non-Mormon some Mormon has struggled against in his or her missionary journey or encountered on her way to a pageant. Nope, I am me. . . a guy trying to make sense out of the great gap, conflict, and hostility that has characterized member/non-member encounters in the 1830's, the 1850's, the 1880's, the 1910's, the 1950's, and to a degree, for other reasons, today. Each decade of conflict has had its own particular etiology. I decided to try and learn more by attending a ward. I didn't read either Walter Martin, nor the most angry Mormon apologists. I did attend an MHA gathering where Mrs. Tanner sat down beside me. I didn't even know who she was until people started greeting her! Don't blame me for that. 🙂 I have tried to get to know and understand the folks in our ward, the folks in the church history community (wonderful people), stake presidents, and yes, the folks here on this forum. I have never in my years of ministry tried to convert a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to anything. Because they are already Christians saved by God's grace and faith in the atonement. My journey is a lonely walk. I hope to continue it a little while longer.