rockpond Posted December 27, 2018 Author Posted December 27, 2018 1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said: That may be a common assumption, but it's still an assumption. Paul came on the scene post-Jesus so he wouldn't have personally witnessed Jesus doing or saying anything. I think that was Rockpond's point. Exactly. I can't figure out why @Bernard Gui and @Meerkat would keep responding to my posts but ignoring that question. As I see it, we have five books that claim to document what Jesus did during his earthly ministry (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, 3 Nephi). Of those five, just one speaks of Christ organizing a church: 3 Nephi. It seems to me that all the texts that claim Jesus organized a church come from people who were in the process of organizing a church. That's my observation in studying scripture. 1
pogi Posted December 27, 2018 Posted December 27, 2018 42 minutes ago, rockpond said: Exactly. I can't figure out why @Bernard Gui and @Meerkat would keep responding to my posts but ignoring that question. As I see it, we have five books that claim to document what Jesus did during his earthly ministry (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, 3 Nephi). Of those five, just one speaks of Christ organizing a church: 3 Nephi. It seems to me that all the texts that claim Jesus organized a church come from people who were in the process of organizing a church. That's my observation in studying scripture. Quote Matthew 16 ...and upon this rock I will build my church Quote 3 Nephi 21 I will establish my church among them It seems that he promised to establish a church on both continents. These texts corroborate all other passages about Christ organizing a church. 1
rockpond Posted December 28, 2018 Author Posted December 28, 2018 1 hour ago, pogi said: It seems that he promised to establish a church on both continents. These texts corroborate all other passages about Christ organizing a church. I addressed the 3 Nephi passage already. Matthew 16 has Christ saying that He would build his church, presumably upon Peter. Is there anything else to elaborate on what He meant by that? Because He didn’t establish anything remotely similar to what we have today. Instead he charged Peter with feeding His sheep.
Bernard Gui Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, rockpond said: Christ. Would Paul have witnessed that? Paul obviously witnessed something because as you say, “he,” meaning Jesus, gave all those offices to the Church. Was that something an organization that Jesus authorized? Certainly. Paul testified it was. And this was not long into the apostolic ministry that Paul provided his witness. We also have the witnesses of Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, the Didache, and other early church fathers (some of whom predate the gospels) that there was an organization founded by Christ and put to work by his council of 12 apostles. Moreover, there are numerous examples of churches being organized by revelation to prophets among the the Nephites prior to Christ’s visit. I’m reminded of the two great debates described in Umberto Eco’s The Name of the Rose. Did Jesus laugh? Did Jesus have any personal possessions? Of course he laughed and of course he owned things even if it were just his robe. But the Gospels do not say that he did, therefore he did not. Edited December 28, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
rockpond Posted December 28, 2018 Author Posted December 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Paul obviously witnessed something because as you say, “he,” meaning Jesus, gave all those offices to the Church. Was that something an organization that Jesus authorized? Certainly. Paul testified it was. And this was not long into the apostolic ministry that Paul provided his witness. We also have the witnesses of Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, the Didache, and other early church fathers (some of whom predate the gospels) that there was an organization founded by Christ and put to work by his council of 12 apostles. Moreover, there are numerous examples of churches being organized by revelation to prophets among the the Nephites prior to Christ’s visit. I’m reminded of the two great debates described in Umberto Eco’s The Name of the Rose. Did Jesus laugh? Did Jesus have any personal possessions? Of course he laughed and of course he owned things even if it were just his robe. But the Gospels do not say that he did, therefore he did not. Based on what I understand of Peter he did not ever witness Christ during his mortal ministry. So I don’t know from what knowledge he speaks in that passage. I’m not familiar with the non-canonical sources you are citing. Is there evidence that they would have witnessed Christ organizing a church? I’ve already noted that the Book of Mormon does have Christ organizing a church. If you believe that to be a historical record of what happened during Jesus’ visit to the Nephites than that would be your witness of such. My comment is on the lack of any such record in the gospels which are the canonized account we have of Jesus’ mortal ministry.
Bernard Gui Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 (edited) 55 minutes ago, rockpond said: Based on what I understand of Peter he did not ever witness Christ during his mortal ministry. So I don’t know from what knowledge he speaks in that passage. I’m not familiar with the non-canonical sources you are citing. Is there evidence that they would have witnessed Christ organizing a church? I’ve already noted that the Book of Mormon does have Christ organizing a church. If you believe that to be a historical record of what happened during Jesus’ visit to the Nephites than that would be your witness of such. My comment is on the lack of any such record in the gospels which are the canonized account we have of Jesus’ mortal ministry. It sounds to me that you are restricting the Savior’s ministry exclusively to what was written in the 4 Gospels.....kind of a sola scriptura position. I don’t hold that view. I do believe the Book of Mormon is a historical record. That there is no explicit description of the Church organization in the Old World in the Gospels does not mean there was none. Here is a good source for the writings of the early Christian sources...the Apostolic Fathers and other Early Church Fathers: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html Edited December 28, 2018 by Bernard Gui
pogi Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 3 hours ago, rockpond said: Matthew 16 has Christ saying that He would build his church, presumably upon Peter. Is there anything else to elaborate on what He meant by that? Because He didn’t establish anything remotely similar to what we have today. Instead he charged Peter with feeding His sheep. I don't think anyone is arguing that the church organization was identical to today's church. I haven't read through the whole thread so I don't really know what you are trying to get at here but I am simply answering the claim that there is no mention of Christ establishing a church in the 4 gospels - well, there clearly is a promise that he would. Wether he did that directly himself or indirectly through Peter, does it make a difference? Either way it is His church and it is mentioned in the 4 gospels by Jesus Christ. 4
HappyJackWagon Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 12 hours ago, pogi said: I don't think anyone is arguing that the church organization was identical to today's church. I haven't read through the whole thread so I don't really know what you are trying to get at here but I am simply answering the claim that there is no mention of Christ establishing a church in the 4 gospels - well, there clearly is a promise that he would. Wether he did that directly himself or indirectly through Peter, does it make a difference? Either way it is His church and it is mentioned in the 4 gospels by Jesus Christ. Lest we forget article of faith #6 Quote 6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. I don't know about "identical" but "same" sure makes it sound like the 2 organizations were...the same. Rockpond is absolutely right. Jesus didn't establish a church with prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. Jesus taught the people. He had disciples. After his death the 12 became evangelists but I don't recall Jesus ever sending them out to teach. Nor do I recall Jesus establishing pastors and prophets during his ministry (I'm open to correction on this). While we can accept that not everything Jesus said or did is recorded in the gospels, and we can further accept that not everything that IS recorded is accurate, it is possible Jesus did these things. But I haven't seen evidence of it. 2
Bernard Gui Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 (edited) It’s quite clear he established an organization with at mimimum a foundation of apostles and prophets and other seventy. Quote 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Who is “he”? Quote And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Edited December 28, 2018 by Bernard Gui 2
bluebell Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said: Lest we forget article of faith #6 I don't know about "identical" but "same" sure makes it sound like the 2 organizations were...the same. Rockpond is absolutely right. Jesus didn't establish a church with prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. Jesus taught the people. He had disciples. After his death the 12 became evangelists but I don't recall Jesus ever sending them out to teach. Nor do I recall Jesus establishing pastors and prophets during his ministry (I'm open to correction on this). While we can accept that not everything Jesus said or did is recorded in the gospels, and we can further accept that not everything that IS recorded is accurate, it is possible Jesus did these things. But I haven't seen evidence of it. It seems like article of faith 6 explains what it means by 'same organization' when it follows that term by saying 'namely' and then listing the priesthood titles (that's not the word I want to use but I can't think of the right term right now). Not the organization as we would use the term today, but the priesthood organization. That's how I've always understood that verse anyway. 2
pogi Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said: Lest we forget article of faith #6 I don't know about "identical" but "same" sure makes it sound like the 2 organizations were...the same. Rockpond is absolutely right. Jesus didn't establish a church with prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. Jesus taught the people. He had disciples. After his death the 12 became evangelists but I don't recall Jesus ever sending them out to teach. Nor do I recall Jesus establishing pastors and prophets during his ministry (I'm open to correction on this). While we can accept that not everything Jesus said or did is recorded in the gospels, and we can further accept that not everything that IS recorded is accurate, it is possible Jesus did these things. But I haven't seen evidence of it. In Mathew 10 and Luke 9 and 10 Jesus does indeed send the apostles and the 70 out to teach in pairs. The evidence for His church is the promise he gave to Peter to establish it. Again, whether it was by the direct hand of Christ or if it was established through Peter, what difference does it make? Whether he called bishops, pastors, etc. during his ministry or after, it is all the same to me. 2
HappyJackWagon Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 Just now, pogi said: In Mathew 10 and Luke 9 and 10 Jesus does indeed send the apostles and the 70 out to teach in pairs. The evidence for His church is the promise he gave to Peter to establish it. Again, whether it was by the direct hand of Christ or if it was established through Peter, what difference does it make? Whether he called bishops, pastors, etc. during his ministry or after, it is all the same to me. Cool. Thanks. So if Peter was to "establish" it, that means Jesus hadn't already established it, right? The difference is between a perfect God and an imperfect man attempting to do the will of a perfect God.
ksfisher Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 27 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Cool. Thanks. So if Peter was to "establish" it, that means Jesus hadn't already established it, right? The difference is between a perfect God and an imperfect man attempting to do the will of a perfect God. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 2
pogi Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 (edited) 43 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Cool. Thanks. So if Peter was to "establish" it, that means Jesus hadn't already established it, right? The difference is between a perfect God and an imperfect man attempting to do the will of a perfect God. We don't know how much of the organization of the church Christ had established before he died or how much he established after. It is clear that he had called 70 and began the evangelizing process while he was still alive. Kfisher is right to point out that he said "I will build my church". I think the important part to consider is that if you truly believe Him to be a "perfect God", then you must accept that he can fulfill his promise to establish His church. You can't deny that it was established through Him or Peter - but either way it is ultimately him that directed it. He is the founder and the foundation, or else he is a liar in saying "I will build my church". Edited December 28, 2018 by pogi 2
Calm Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 3 hours ago, bluebell said: then listing the priesthood titles (that's not the word I want to use but I can't think of the right term right now). Offices? 1
bluebell Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 38 minutes ago, Calm said: Offices? Yes, thank you!
bluebell Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: The difference is between a perfect God and an imperfect man attempting to do the will of a perfect God. I don't know that Christ recognizes a difference though, even knowing that His servants are imperfect. D&C 1 (v. 24-28) shows that Christ knows the weaknesses of His servants- "Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding. And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known; And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed; And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent; And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time." But yet He still said this a few verses later (v. 38)- "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." 4
Avatar4321 Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: Lest we forget article of faith #6 I don't know about "identical" but "same" sure makes it sound like the 2 organizations were...the same. Rockpond is absolutely right. Jesus didn't establish a church with prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. Jesus taught the people. He had disciples. After his death the 12 became evangelists but I don't recall Jesus ever sending them out to teach. Nor do I recall Jesus establishing pastors and prophets during his ministry (I'm open to correction on this). While we can accept that not everything Jesus said or did is recorded in the gospels, and we can further accept that not everything that IS recorded is accurate, it is possible Jesus did these things. But I haven't seen evidence of it. You don’t recall Jesus sending his disciples out to teach? Really? Are you serious? Edited December 28, 2018 by Avatar4321 1
Avatar4321 Posted December 28, 2018 Posted December 28, 2018 4 hours ago, pogi said: In Mathew 10 and Luke 9 and 10 Jesus does indeed send the apostles and the 70 out to teach in pairs. The evidence for His church is the promise he gave to Peter to establish it. Again, whether it was by the direct hand of Christ or if it was established through Peter, what difference does it make? Whether he called bishops, pastors, etc. during his ministry or after, it is all the same to me. And don’t forget the Great Commission. i have to say it’s quite astonishing to see people looking for a reason not to believe that Christ established a Church when the scriptures are clear that He did. how many references are needed before they will be accepted? 2
rockpond Posted December 29, 2018 Author Posted December 29, 2018 On 12/27/2018 at 8:25 PM, Bernard Gui said: It sounds to me that you are restricting the Savior’s ministry exclusively to what was written in the 4 Gospels.....kind of a sola scriptura position. I don’t hold that view. I do believe the Book of Mormon is a historical record. That there is no explicit description of the Church organization in the Old World in the Gospels does not mean there was none. Here is a good source for the writings of the early Christian sources...the Apostolic Fathers and other Early Church Fathers: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html I've tried to be clear that I was discussing what He did (or didn't do) in just His mortal ministry. I realize His ministry continues.
Bernard Gui Posted December 29, 2018 Posted December 29, 2018 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: I've tried to be clear that I was discussing what He did (or didn't do) in just His mortal ministry. I realize His ministry continues. Then I don’t see any point to this discussion. 1
rockpond Posted December 29, 2018 Author Posted December 29, 2018 On 12/27/2018 at 9:15 PM, pogi said: I don't think anyone is arguing that the church organization was identical to today's church. Agreed. Because it's not identical, not even remotely close. On 12/27/2018 at 9:15 PM, pogi said: I haven't read through the whole thread so I don't really know what you are trying to get at here... Just exploring the idea. On 12/27/2018 at 9:15 PM, pogi said: ...but I am simply answering the claim that there is no mention of Christ establishing a church in the 4 gospels - well, there clearly is a promise that he would. Wether he did that directly himself or indirectly through Peter, does it make a difference? Either way it is His church and it is mentioned in the 4 gospels by Jesus Christ. Christ says he would build his Church upon the rock of Peter. Is that a promise of an organization the likes of which we believe has now been restored? I don't know but I don't believe so. That's not to say that I believe what we've done over the past couple centuries is wrong... just that organization we have today may not be a "restoration" of what Jesus organized but a method of meeting His mandate to feed His sheep.
rockpond Posted December 29, 2018 Author Posted December 29, 2018 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: Then I don’t see any point to this discussion. Okay. You should ignore my posts on the topic then. 1
Bernard Gui Posted December 29, 2018 Posted December 29, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, rockpond said: Okay. You should ignore my posts on the topic then. Or you could explain what your point is and why it has any significance. Edited December 29, 2018 by Bernard Gui
rockpond Posted December 29, 2018 Author Posted December 29, 2018 12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Or you could explain what your point is and why it has any significance. It was a discussion, not sure that I had a specific point I was trying to make. Just exploring and seeking to learn. Whether or not it has any significance for you is a personal matter that I can't answer.
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