Hype for April 2019 Conference

[Gray]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have heard that claim but have never seen it substantiated beyond the claim. Do you have any links? A Google search just gave me links about Dead Sea scroll fakes and debunks of the silly popular books written about Vatican conspiracies and how Jesus must have been an Essene.

I heard it in the recent Bokovoy interview. As I recall the prediction was that earlier versions of a certain passage would have more of a polytheistic bent, and it was just so in the dead sea scrolls. I'll see if I can find the actual passage.

[rockpond]

On 12/30/2018 at 5:44 AM, halconero said:

What’s your interpretation? If you’re goig to call it a stretch, at least say why.

If you know koine Greek it really isn’t. In the context of the Apollonian mysteries, the Eleusian mysteries, the 2nd temple rites, and the language it’s almost awkward to read it as not pertaining to organized mystery rites.

Heck, even the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics retain a bit of this with the curtain wall shielding their rites from the main body.

That point aside, you’d also have to ignore the other points raised, including:

- Luke-Acts

- The organized collection

- Disciplinary measures spelled out

- The “ecclesia” line by Christ

The four gospels have Christ using the term "mysteries" just once and that is in response to a question about why He taught in parables.  Each time He explains that unto them (the disciples) is it given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven but to them it is not.  I understand this to mean that he taught in parables so that those who were ready to receive the weightier matters of the gospel would find those in the parables while those who weren't ready, would not.  This is one of the reasons I have dedicated much time to the study of His parables.  Personally, I have found great deep meaning in them.

Are you saying that the parables explain secret rites and ceremonies?

 

[rockpond]

On 12/30/2018 at 4:53 AM, rodheadlee said:

Because no one really got it until He was resurrected.

The four gospels were written after He was resurrected.  So if they had witnessed Christ organizing a church during His mortal ministry but didn't "get it" until after His resurrection, they would have then included it in their writings.

[rockpond]

On 12/30/2018 at 3:01 AM, Calm said:

How familar are you with what the ancient world referred to as "mysteries"?

The secret rites that only initiates would have ears to hear is too much of a stretch?  Why?

I'm not familiar with what the ancient world referred to as mysteries.  Is there evidence that when the ancient world referred to mysteries, they were referring to secret rites?

[Calm]

11 hours ago, rockpond said:

I'm not familiar with what the ancient world referred to as mysteries.  Is there evidence that when the ancient world referred to mysteries, they were referring to secret rites?

See for example http://mentalfloss.com/article/501560/7-greco-roman-mystery-cults-you-should-know  Typically the term "mystery" is used for Greek and Roman rites ("mystery cults" for example), but such rites were widespread, even global in my understanding (I would include many initiation rites).  This use of "mysteries" is currently recognized in our English dictionaries.  

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mystery

Quote

 the secret or specialized practices or ritual peculiar to an occupation or a body of people

My understanding is parables would mean something different to those who were initiates in the Gospel just as the initiates in the mysteries would view teachings differently than those that lacked experience in them.  Whether or not "mysteries of the kingdom" could refer to similar forms of knowledge (that received by initiates) probably depends on what the Greek means, but the cultural background was there for that meaning as my understanding is at least some of the mystery cults were famous.

And Strong's Concordance would seem to indicate this was a possible definition:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3466&t=KJV

Quote

The KJV translates Strong's G3466 in the following manner: mystery (27x).

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

hidden thing, secret, mystery

generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals

a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding

a hidden purpose or counsel

secret will

of men

of God: the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly...

μυστήριον mystḗrion, moos-tay'-ree-on; from a derivative of μύω mýō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):—mystery

 

Edited January 1, 2019 by Calm

[clarkgoble]

10 hours ago, rockpond said:

I'm not familiar with what the ancient world referred to as mysteries.  Is there evidence that when the ancient world referred to mysteries, they were referring to secret rites?

That's the typical use. The debate among scholars is whether Christianity counts. That then gets into the the debate about whether mainstream Christianity in the 1st century had more in similarity with gnosticism than typically is accepted. There are well agreed upon similarities between mainstream conceptions of Christianity and mystery religions such as the sacred meal. The main argument against Christianity as a mystery religion is that those rites were practiced openly. Thus the Lords Supper and baptism weren't secret private rites. The argument is that originally Christianity was a mystery but that after Christ's resurrection such things were taught openly thus rendering them no longer a mystery. Paul's sense likely also comes out of the apocalyptic tradition. (Many scholars see Jesus in part as an apocalyptic teacher) There the mystery revealed is often the vision of God. Here that's the manifestation of Jesus in the flesh and his resurrection.

Mormons tend to accept more than scholars typically put into the gnostic category but argue that gnosticism had corrupted or stolen these from mainstream Christianity. The argument then is that those were removed from mainstream Christianity (in part due to the attempt to stamp out gnosticism) losing parts of the gospel. Certainly gnostic texts suggest rites that would be considered mysteries. So you had a sacred marriage in a mirrored room off the holy of holies in The Gospel of Phillip, for example. There are lots of texts with secret handshakes and signs in various gnostic texts, 1 & 2 Jeu being the strongest example.

Relative to mystery in the gospels though it's a bit more tricky. Mark 4:8 Mormons would say is tied to the degrees of glory. The rest I'd say is about the hidden economy of the world such as the apostasy, the word having things taken from it and a lot else. Mark 4 thus IMO parallels Nephi's apocalyptic vision in some ways, albeit not as explicit. Likewise Mark 13 is generally seen as apocalyptic and uses a lot of apocalyptic references including quotes from Daniel. So the mystery there is much more an apocalypse one rather than a ritual one. So the initiation isn't a ritual one so much as this knowledge of the last days.

[rockpond]

Okay, so @Calm and @clarkgoble you've established that definition of mysteries.  How do you then place it in context of what Jesus was saying.  He was asked why He taught in parables and His answer was that "unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom but unto them it is not given".  What do that parables have to do with secret rites and ceremonies?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Okay, so @Calm and @clarkgoble you've established that definition of mysteries.  How do you then place it in context of what Jesus was saying.  He was asked why He taught in parables and His answer was that "unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom but unto them it is not given".  What do that parables have to do with secret rites and ceremonies?

It is about sacred knowledge being shared by initiates in ways that wouldn't be understood by those unaware.

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is about sacred knowledge being shared by initiates in ways that wouldn't be understood by those unaware.

But now you are implying that "mysteries" refers to sacred knowledge not rites and ceremonies.  I agree, however, that sacred knowledge, seems more consistent with the context.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, rockpond said:

But now you are implying that "mysteries" refers to sacred knowledge not rites and ceremonies.  I agree, however, that sacred knowledge, seems more consistent with the context.

Rites and ceremonies are vehicles for sharing and experiencing sacred knowledge.  They can even be described as parables and I have seen that usage here and there.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Calm

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Rites and ceremonies are vehicles for sharing and experiencing sacred knowledge.  They can even be described as parables and I have seen that usage here and there.

So your thought is that Christ had put the apostles through the rites and ceremonies prior to them asking that question?

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

So your thought is that Christ had put the apostles through the rites and ceremonies prior to them asking that question?

Not drawn any conclusions at this point.  Not something I felt drawn to study.  My knowledge of mystery religions (and therefore the phrase) comes from my youthful obsession with world mythologies.

 

Edited January 2, 2019 by Calm

[CMZ]

On 12/26/2018 at 7:25 AM, rockpond said:

Interesting, isn't it?  That in the Book of Mormon he organized a church but we have no record of such in the four gospels.

Plain and precious truths taken out.

[Bwils4]

Opening Temples on Sunday - not likely

Ending Seminary  - doubt it.  There is even more emphasis on finishing seminary especially for those who will serve in certain foreign missions.

I am sure there will be instruction coming on the new youth programs although this may not be until October 2019.

There is rumor within the Facilities Maintenance group of the Church that there is an active program to significantly increase the number of smaller temples throughout the world and give more access to members for ordinance work. By significant I am talking about more than double the current number of operating temples but again, on a much smaller building size scale.

I suppose we shall see what the Lord has in mind!

[Tacenda]

There's a rumor going around that the church will let up on the no coffee rule because so many millennials have to have it. I can't imagine this happening though.

[Bwils4]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

There's a rumor going around that the church will let up on the no coffee rule because so many millennials have to have it. I can't imagine this happening though.

Uh right, I don't think that even has the tiniest chance of even being close to true.

[rockpond]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

There's a rumor going around that the church will let up on the no coffee rule because so many millennials have to have it. I can't imagine this happening though.

Yeah, I've heard that rumor as well.  I just don't see that happening.  At least not in exactly that way.  It was, essentially a part of Bill Reel's pre-conference predictions back in October.  See number 7...

Quote

1.) Males and Females can go on Missions at 18 and serve 24 months: these combats the severe decline in the # of Missionaries serving.

2.) The One year waiting period across the board if one has a civil marriage first. – The removes the tension this is causing many and relieves one item on the shelf of some who step back due to Mormonism’s abusive mechanisms.

3.) Going to a 2 hour block as the standard.  This relieves those who are overly burdened in callings and it allows a ward to get by with less people due to the exodus of members.  It also allows those who don’t feel uplifted to more easily justify continued attendance.

4.) Missionaries to serve only in the country they live.

5.) for those going through the endowment for the dead, reducing the endowment session to 1 hour.  Again reducing the burden and boredom of younger members who lack the same blind commitment to the Church that their parents and grandparents had.

6.) This one seems mundane but is at the heart of the rumors.  The SLC Temple will close for a 5 year renovation.  If this one comes to pass, I trust the other 5 even if not implemented are being discussed in depth in top Church circles

7.) The temple interview made less rigid and less about keeping belief standards to accommodate a younger generation walking away from activity and adherence to Church standards.

3 & 5 have happened.  6 was somewhat announced (in a general sense about pioneer era temples).

Regarding 7... there could be some modification to TR interview questions but I wouldn't anticipate it being announced in Gen Con.  Instead it would be rolled out to leaders and then we'd hear about it.

My thoughts on the others (as if anyone cares)...

1 - I don't think they'll modify ages/length of missions for a while.  Maybe just do more with service mission opportunities.

2 - They might implement this but I think it would be quietly rolled out to leaders, not announced in Gen Con.

4 - This doesn't make any sense to me.  They'll always need to balance the missionary force across different geographies.  But if they want to keep more missionaries within their own country, it is entirely in their control -- no need to make a policy or an announcement -- just issue the calls accordingly.

[ALarson]

24 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

There's a rumor going around that the church will let up on the no coffee rule because so many millennials have to have it. I can't imagine this happening though.

Ok....I just heard this "rumor" yesterday too (by someone who talked to an "inside source"....whatever that is  )

But I heard it'll be that iced coffee and iced tea will now be allowed and they quoted the percentage (Jana Reiss) of millennials who drink those and love their Starbucks, etc.   I know I've seen kids show up during the week drinking the Starbucks coffee drinks in the little bottles and some have said their parents drink them too (stock up on them in their refrigerators).

I've got to say that if they make this change, I'll be shocked.  To me, that would mean that they are pulling out all the stops to keep the youth in the church.  Also,  how then do they say that hot coffee and tea are still against the WofW,  but put some ice in them and you're fine?  

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/02/25/coffee-gay-issues/

 

Quote

 

That’s why the data’s biggest surprise, Riess said, was coffee.

According to the church’s health code known as the Word of Wisdom, coffee drinking is prohibited and would bar those who drink it from entering the faith’s temples.

But some 40 percent of current millennial and GenXer members said they had had a cup of coffee in the previous six months, Riess reported, including some who reported having a “temple recommend.”

There was a “clear generational divide” in how Latter-day Saints viewed the Word of Wisdom. Older members saw adherence as “essential” to their identity. Youngers saw it as “important, perhaps, but not essential.”

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by ALarson

[Duncan]

I've heard that they are modifying Stake conferences, although I would be surprised if they announced that at General Conference. Something like If a GA is visiting there won't be a Sat. Evening session (what they will do with the GA I haven't the foggiest) but if one isn't attending then they will have that session. Also with Stake Conference they won't have auxillary training per se but one big ward council like meeting (Idoubt they'd go over every ward and branch concerns) but do the training all at once-which makes sense to me.

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Also with Stake Conference they won't have auxillary training per se but one big ward council like meeting (Idoubt they'd go over every ward and branch concerns) but do the training all at once-which makes sense to me.

I don't know what you mean by auxiliary training, but it is true (and has been since last year) that priesthood leadership has been replaced by a ward and stake council training.

[Duncan]

12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't know what you mean by auxiliary training, but it is true (and has been since last year) that priesthood leadership has been replaced by a ward and stake council training.

in our Stake we had YM, YW, Primary, Sunday School -auxillary training- from 1230-2 (too Long!) but then at 3 it was Priesthood so, bishoprics, EQ, exec. secretary, WML and so with this new change it would be all combined but our stake hasn't done it yet, for whatever reason

[Hamba Tuhan]

37 minutes ago, Duncan said:

in our Stake we had YM, YW, Primary, Sunday School -auxillary training- from 1230-2 (too Long!) but then at 3 it was Priesthood so, bishoprics, EQ, exec. secretary, WML 

Nope, we've never done that. Our stake auxiliaries do individual training sessions with each ward throughout the year.

Quote

our stake hasn't done it yet, for whatever reason

Mate, you've told us enough about your stake to have the reason ...

[Duncan]

12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Nope, we've never done that. Our stake auxiliaries do individual training sessions with each ward throughout the year.

Mate, you've told us enough about your stake to have the reason ...

oh, the stories!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahhahahha! Our Stake has done that first training for years and years now!

[nuclearfuels]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

There's a rumor going around that the church will let up on the no coffee rule because so many millennials have to have it. I can't imagine this happening though.

Well, in my stake, the singles ward meets later - making the family ward, liek those with a bunch of kids, meet at 9am - every year, all year long. 

I'd put nothing past trying to accommodate the millenials

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

Ok....I just heard this "rumor" yesterday too (by someone who talked to an "inside source"....whatever that is  )

But I heard it'll be that iced coffee and iced tea will now be allowed and they quoted the percentage (Jana Reiss) of millennials who drink those and love their Starbucks, etc.   I know I've seen kids show up during the week drinking the Starbucks coffee drinks in the little bottles and some have said their parents drink them too (stock up on them in their refrigerators).

I've got to say that if they make this change, I'll be shocked.  To me, that would mean that they are pulling out all the stops to keep the youth in the church.  Also,  how then do they say that hot coffee and tea are still against the WofW,  but put some ice in them and you're fine?  

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/02/25/coffee-gay-issues/

 

 

 

 

All they really have to do is revert back to the original language in the WoW.  It never mentions Coffee or Tea, only says hot drinks and leaders interpreted it to mean Coffee and Tea (mistakenly).  

Would this be an incremental step towards  allowing for moderate consumption of barley and grape derived beverages?  Possibly in the future, who knows. The WoW was the culturally distinctive emphasis of 20th century Mormonism after it abandoned polygamy.  If that large of a change can happen I think a deemphasis in letter of the law adherence to WoW traditions would be a great thing, especially if it’s accompanied by an emphasis on actual healthy living which is the spirit of the law that is frequently missed.