Here We Go Again

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, Anijen said:

The kneeling players are multi-millionaire employees who have a very public voice. They have many other ways to protest other than on their employers time. You insult his and all other players intelligence by saying; " he  is just taking a stand the only way he knew how,. 

This isn't about the protest, it is about the incredibly disrespectful manner they choose to protest. The Westboro Baptist church also protest at the graves of returning soldiers in which the Constitution gives them that right, I am just as against this choice in manner of Protest. Once again it is not the protesting that bothers me, it is the way they choose to protest. 

 

You are right. It is a way to get attention. You could be wrong about "for what is needed" The NFL losing millions of fans and revenue is a hindrance not a solution for what is needed. When protestors choose to protest in such a disrespectful manner, loses any gains they would like to see and what actually happens is it creates more animosity.

In a larger and more evil scale, the reasoning is the same for a terrorist who chooses to blow up innocent people the unlawful  use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians do so in the pursuit of political aims. The manner of protesting causes more problems than it is worth. Protesting is fine, but I'd choose a different type of stage.

 

As I am. My father ( a very well decorated war hero, believed so too). Every single protest is given the capability by every veteran of every battle of every war.

 These veterans died in preserving the liberty and symbolism of what the US flag stands for and for what the anthem stands for O'er the land of the free [players are free to protest] and the home of the brave [veterans like my father, who died so players  may protest].

 

I never said that I want to take the freedom to protest away. I haven't  even implied that.  You are creating a strawman argument by saying we want to take the freedom to protest away and then criticizing us [me] for wanting to take the freedom to protest away. I am all for freedom of speech. I am for players protesting, for Westboro Baptist church members protesting. I am for this because it is a freedom that is hardly allowed in any other country. What I am against and I am disgusted with is the manner in which they choose to protest. I strongly feel that no gains have been made for the reason they are protesting if anything it has hurt their cause and has become polarizing and in effect a hindrance to the goals they wanted to make. Having said that; I would not even take the right to choose the manner of protest from them, even though I find it equivalent as to the use of toilet paper.

 

Conclusion; I never want to take away anyone's right to protest. I do not want to take away the right to choose the manner of protesting. If someone wants to use a way that is offensive to me, my father, veterans, our country then have at it. That doesn't mean I need to find their choice of how they protest disgusting (it is), and because I disagree with you, or Nehor, or the kneeling players does not mean I am wrong or a racist.

I can tell we won't get anywhere here. I feel they respect by kneeling as well, isn't that how we pray, by kneeling? What is wrong with doing that to speak up for the many blacks that are out there afraid of everything out there because they may be thrown in jail and innocent? They weren't disrespecting the flag or the veterens. So that's where we are have a huge difference of opinion. I'm tired of being afraid to voice my feelings on this. I shy from doing it in front of family and friends. So when I saw Nehor's post, it mostly said what I feel. I'm proud to be in a country that we won't get shot for speaking against some things that need change. I would think all Americans would appreciate that they let their feelings out in front and center since so many watch these football games. Sometimes it takes this, I agree maybe there could be a different time vs. when people stand for the flag, but I also believe in everyone's right to speak out against atrocities such as these black men and women face each and every day.

[Calm]

14 hours ago, Anijen said:

I found Neehors post very offensive personally and there is nothing wrong with patriotism, celebrating our veterans who died for the freedom. I find all those who kneel and show disrespect to this country, flag, veterans and my father!

I don't salute the flag myself.  Haven't wanted to since elementary school, stopped in high school iirc.  I will stand so as not to distract others who do want to, but nothing else.

My patriotism and my duty is towards the country and its people, not a piece of fabric.  I get symbols, I love symbols, but I remember the purpose of the symbol and for me the flag's purpose is to remind me of my country, not substitute for it.  It feels wrong for me to do so.

I don't have the least problem with others who feel differently, who feel strengthened by doing so rather than distracted.

Am I showing disrespect because I look at the flag in a different way than you do?

Edited September 2, 2018 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I feel they respect by kneeling as well, isn't that how we pray, by kneeling? What is wrong with doing that to speak up for the many blacks that are out there afraid of everything out there because they may be thrown in jail and innocent? They weren't disrespecting the flag or the veterens.

It was actually a veteran, a green beret, who suggest to Colin Kaepernick to take a knee rather than just sit. It was a compromise. The idea was that kneeling was not disrespectful (we kneel all the time out of respect) but doing something different than standing would draw attention.

[Calm]

I think the kneeling could have been a very effective way to protest.  A very visual protest without anyone being hurt, property being destroyed by a protest that draws opposers and emotions get out of hand.  A short protest that could cause people to stop and think.

I also think Glenn's observation that it has lost the message it might have had is probably true.  It has become to a great extent about the kneeling itself and not the message it was trying to convey.

I think the negative reaction to it can be at times ridiculous and over the top and it troubles me when it gets to that point.  That is why I gave a point to Nehor's post.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It was actually a veteran, a green beret, who suggest to Colin Kaepernick to take a knee rather than just sit. It was a compromise. The idea was that kneeling was not disrespectful (we kneel all the time out of respect) but doing something different than standing would draw attention.

I think he had a great idea.  I grew up during flag burning.  The contrast with taking a knee is very striking to me.  It actually has led me to think more of what the flag and its attendant ceremonies mean to our community...and should mean. (There are many flag ceremonies I find very moving and meaningful, such as the flag at half mast for mourning and draping a coffin of a vet.)  The flag goes up on national holidays at our home.  A flag's purpose is to communicate...I like its use for that.

Anyone else remember the kid who got arrested for using a flag as a patch on the seat of his pants?  They popped up around my high school pretty quickly, not an aesthetically pleasing choice I thought.  And most kids it was just a fad that once sewn on was worn pretty mindlessly.  If you are going to protest, it needs to be imo something that makes you think.  Taking a knee is both a very submissive and assertive act, kneeling being a symbol of humility in our culture while not conforming in a very public manner is something that takes resolve and at times courage.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Calm

[Tacenda]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don't salute the flag myself.  Haven't wanted to since elementary school, stopped in high school iirc.  I will stand so as not to distract others who do want to, but nothing else.

My patriotism and my duty is towards the country and its people, not a piece of fabric.  I get symbols, I love symbols, but I remember the purpose of the symbol and for me the flag's purpose is to remind me of my country, not substitute for it.  It feels wrong for me to do so.

I don't have the least problem with others who feel differently, who feel strengthen by doing so rather than distracted.

Am I showing disrespect because I look at the flag in a different way than you do?

Heaven's no! I believe the Amish/Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in having idols before their God. They put Him first or something like that! When I read posts on FB against this young black man taking a knee, I just have to take a shut up attitude because they are so strong on standing when the anthem is sung. But even the anthem isn't so great, have you read all the words? https://www.procon.org/headline.php?headlineID=005368 And as you've probably seen I'm a people pleaser and want to keep the peace. Also, when I sub in school, it is very important that the children place their hands over their hearts and say the pledge, but sometimes I feel like it's too forced, such as in other countries like Korea. 

How did you get the idea that I was against others for looking at the flag differently? I was just trying to share that others don't stand or salute the flag and that this Colin guy may look at it differently as well, but I'm sure all of them are still very grateful for what our members in combat and elsewhere have done to afford us the freedoms we have. 

Thanks for sharing this part of your life. I'm glad you don't have to be afraid for your life by not putting your hand over your heart. I wonder what the blacks feel about just driving down the road and getting pulled over or walking down the street or walking into a store and people believing they are a threat? We whites have no freaking idea. And that's where I'm at in all this. 

ETA: Calm, I'm so sorry, I thought this post was for me!! Yep, I'm losing it!

Edited September 2, 2018 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

26 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It was actually a veteran, a green beret, who suggest to Colin Kaepernick to take a knee rather than just sit. It was a compromise. The idea was that kneeling was not disrespectful (we kneel all the time out of respect) but doing something different than standing would draw attention.

Good to know, I either didn't know about this or had forgotten. Thanks!

[Tacenda]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think the kneeling could have been a very effective way to protest.  A very visual protest without anyone being hurt, property being destroyed by a protest that draws opposers and emotions get out of hand.  A short protest that could cause people to stop and think.

I also think Glenn's observation that it has lost the message it might have had is probably true.  It has become to a great extent about the kneeling itself and not the message it was trying to convey.

I think the negative reaction to it can be at times ridiculous and over the top and it troubles me when it gets to that point.  That is why I gave a point to Nehor's post.

True, to the last sentence. I remember someone asking the following question somewhere, not here. What do most people do during the anthem while watching a sporting event on TV? Do they stand and place their hand over their hearts, or do they sit and watch or do they get up to use the bathroom, or get some food? 

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Heaven's no! I believe the Amish/Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in having idols before their God. They put Him first or something like that! When I read posts on FB against this young black man taking a knee, I just have to take a shut up attitude because they are so strong on standing when the anthem is sung. But even the anthem isn't so great, have you read all the words? https://www.procon.org/headline.php?headlineID=005368 And as you've probably seen I'm a people pleaser and want to keep the peace. Also, when I sub in school, it is very important that the children place their hands over their hearts and say the pledge, but sometimes I feel like it's too forced, such as in other countries like Korea. 

How did you get the idea that I was against others for looking at the flag differently? I was just trying to share that others don't stand or salute the flag and that this Colin guy may look at it differently as well, but I'm sure all of them are still very grateful for what our members in combat and elsewhere have done to afford us the freedoms we have. 

Thanks for sharing this part of your life. I'm glad you don't have to be afraid for your life by not putting your hand over your heart. I wonder what the blacks feel about just driving down the road and getting pulled over or walking down the street or walking into a store and people believing they are a threat? We whites have no freaking idea. And that's where I'm at in all this. 

ETA: Calm, I'm so sorry, I thought this post was for me!! Yep, I'm losing it!

No problem...can be hard to keep track when reading, .I know.  I tend to skip reading the quoted material at times assuming I will remember.

[Anijen]

 

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

 I feel they respect by kneeling as well, isn't that how we pray, by kneeling? 

Just because kneeling during prayer is respectful, kneeling when traditionally we have stood is contrary to the reason we stand. It shows respect in one instance, e.g. prayer, and disrespect in another instance (when traditionally we shown respect by standing). To say kneeling is respectful when we should be standing  to show respect is ludicris. That is like saying when a slave had to kneel before the slave owner is a sign of respect when it was only a sign of submission and not in a positive way.

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they weren't disrespecting the flag or the veterens.

Of course they were.

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I'm tired of being afraid to voice my feelings on this.

Then don't be afraid. I certainly have did nothing to keep you from voicing your own opinions. Your family and friends should know where you stand, my family and friends certainly do.

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So when I saw Nehor's post, it mostly said what I feel. I'm proud to be in a country that we won't get shot for speaking against some things that need change.

My father literally did get shot and bombed. My father defended yours, Nehors, and my right to protest. I am not against protesting. I am disgusted by the manner in which was chosen to protest. Kneeling during the playing of the National Anthem has did absolutely nothing for the original objective and has only caused division and animosity. When I see someone sitting it bothers me, but I can understand why, but an outward expression that goes directly contrary to tradition shows contempt. Yes it is a way to protest, but not a good one.

 

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I would think all Americans would appreciate that they let their feelings out in front and center since so many watch these football games. Sometimes it takes this, I agree maybe there could be a different time vs. when people stand for the flag, but I also believe in everyone's right to speak out against atrocities such as these black men and women face each and every day.

I agree

4 hours ago, Calm said:

My patriotism and my duty is towards the country and its people, not a piece of fabric.

Our religion has more symbolism in fabric than our country does. Do you feel the same for that type of symbolism? Could it be selective favoring of symbolism one favors your religion and one disagrees with your politics?

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 for me the flag's purpose is to remind me of my country, not substitute for it.  

I completely agree with you here.

 

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Am I showing disrespect because I look at the flag in a different way than you do?

Of course not. Here you have said you recognise the traditional meaning and you will stand (although you do not salute) that is not being disrespectful.  However, by being contrary to the way that has been the traditional way to show respect then that becomes a literal showing of disrespect.

 

4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

It was actually a veteran, a green beret, who suggest to Colin Kaepernick to take a knee rather than just sit. 

Half true. Kaepernick was sitting through the anthems long before Boyer suggested he kneel. Boyer at first was also disgusted with Kopernick in the manner he chose to protest. It was not until immense criticism fell upon him [Boyer] that he changed his opinion.

 

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I think the kneeling could have been a very effective way to protest.  A very visual protest without anyone being hurt, property being destroyed by a protest that draws opposers and emotions get out of hand.  A short protest that could cause people to stop and think.

No one got hurt, and it is a way to protest without violence. Does that make the manner he protested more respectful? No, IMO it does not. The Westboro Baptist church had no fights, no violence. Would you agree to the way the Westboro Baptist church protested at the funerals of dead soldiers? Calm, I am not against protesting, I think wisdom in the way we protest could be more effective if it just weren't in such a disrespectful manner. I have only seen polarizing of the country from this. I have not seen a single positive outcome from kneeling during the National Anthem. Unless causing such vitriol divisiveness was their goal.

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I also think Glenn's observation that it has lost the message it might have had is probably true.  It has become to a great extent about the kneeling itself and not the message it was trying to convey.

I agree, but why? Why has the manner overcome the message? I will answer because so many people find it disrespectful. No matter how many people on this thread say it is not disrespectful they would be simply wrong.

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I think the negative reaction to it can be at times ridiculous and over the top and it troubles me when it gets to that point.

I completely agree with you here. It troubles me as well.

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That is why I gave a point to Nehor's post.

I have no problem with you giving Nehor a point.  I am an "Army Brat." My father took me to town hall meetings once a month. My father took me to many, many, many military parades. My father taught me to respect this country and respect this country's symbols. My father served 32 years in the Army, he died 2 years ago with a bullet and shrapnel still lodged in his body from a war helping liberate people so that they might have the same freedoms we do, including the right to protest. War is the ultimate manner of protesting I do not like it and I do not like the way NFL players are protesting either.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Anijen

[Anijen]

When I see posters of an aborted fetus at General Conference (true story), their protesting does not bother me, but the manner in which they choose to protest does. 

 

Edited to say: USU78 makes a legitimate point by taking away the voice it takes away the choice. Is not that Satan's plan, to take away agency? Some here have taken my posts as an objection to protesting, it is not. It is an objection t the manner someone chooses to protest. I do NOT want that choice, that agency, taken away from them.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Anijen

[Calm]

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 Do you feel the same for that type of symbolism?

I don't feel any sense of allegiance to the cloth symbols of our faith.  I believe what they are meant to communicate for me.

The flag as a form of communication makes sense for me, as something to feel allegiance to...doesn't work for me personally.  If others feel that way, I don't take issue with them any more than I disagree with those who don't want to use it to convey the same ideas I convey when I put it up on my house or in my yard.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Anijen said:

Could it be selective favoring of symbolism one favors your religion and one disagrees with your politics?

 Don't think you understand my politics if you think the flag allegiance disagrees with them.

I only stand to not distract others, I am not making any statement of respect to the flag itself.

I don't see anything inherently disrespectful just because it is not in the traditional manner of standing during the anthem.  It is symbolic language and that changes in meaning from person to person.  To insist there is only one respectful way to act during the anthem is equivalent to me to saying there is only one accent that shows respect during a prayer.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Calm

[Glenn101]

2 hours ago, Anijen said:

Just because kneeling during prayer is respectful, kneeling when traditionally we have stood is contrary to the reason we stand. It shows respect in one instance, e.g. prayer, and disrespect in another instance (when traditionally we shown respect by standing). To say kneeling is respectful when we should be standing  to show respect is ludicris. That is like saying when a slave had to kneel before the slave owner is a sign of respect when it was only a sign of submission and not in a positive way.

I am with you on showing respect to the flag, but I do not understand the "it's gotta be the way we do it or it's not reapectful." Who was it that decided that we must stand and salute the flad when paying the national anthem? It really seems to have become a tradition from a spontaneous moment at a baseball game in 1918 at Comiskey Park in Chicago. I just do not see kneeling as a sign of disrespect. But I am afraid that it is too much of an emotional issue for there to be a calm dialogue.

Glenn

[Anijen]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

 Don't think you understand my politics if you think the flag allegiance disagrees with them.

I only stand to not distract others, I am not making any statement of respect to the flag itself.

I don't see anything inherently disrespectful just because it is not in the traditional manner of standing during the anthem.  It is symbolic language and that changes in meaning from person to person.  To insist there is only one respectful way to act during the anthem is equivalent to me to saying there is only one accent that shows respect during a prayer.

Calm, thank you very much for your input. I think my upbringing in such an atmosphere of a patriotic father, his influence has obviously molded my opinions. I respect your opinions very much and I am thankful for the discussion, especially your way of being non-contentious. Although I think kneeling when we should stand (traditionally) is a form of disrespect. I always appreciate your candid responses. Please forgive me if I went too far over board, I have a tendency to do at times.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Anijen said:

Calm, thank you very much for your input. I think my upbringing in such an atmosphere of a patriotic father, his influence has obviously molded my opinions. I respect your opinions very much and I am thankful for the discussion, especially your way of being non-contentious. Although I think kneeling when we should stand (traditionally) is a form of disrespect. I always appreciate your candid responses. Please forgive me if I went too far over board, I have a tendency to do at times.

We're good.  Thanks for sharing this.  

[rodheadlee]

Nevermind 

Edited September 3, 2018 by rodheadlee

[california boy]

5 hours ago, Anijen said:

My father literally did get shot and bombed. My father defended yours, Nehors, and my right to protest. I am not against protesting. I am disgusted by the manner in which was chosen to protest. Kneeling during the playing of the National Anthem has did absolutely nothing for the original objective and has only caused division and animosity. When I see someone sitting it bothers me, but I can understand why, but an outward expression that goes directly contrary to tradition shows contempt. Yes it is a way to protest, but not a good one.

2

I honor the sacrifice your father made to defend the very right the players are exercising.  My father also fought for that right.  He also has a purple heart and was awarded a silver star for the sacrifice he made.  That doesn't give either one of us the right to decide how others protest.

The flag is the central symbol of this country.  I am thankful for these players for drawing attention to an institutional problem in this country in some areas towards the black population.  They too are Americans and deserve better treatment from our law enforcement and from some Americans that prey upon prejudices.  Praying that will happen some day is a perfect way to express their hope that people will do something about this injustice and make that symbol wave even more proudly.

 

 

[Calm]

The green beret mentioned...in his own words:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/a-green-beret-who-played-in-the-nfl-writes-colin-kaepernick-a-letter/

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Even though my initial reaction to your protest was one of anger, I'm trying to listen to what you're saying and why you're doing it. When I told my mom about this article, she cautioned me that "the last thing our country needed right now was more hate." As usual, she's right. 

There are already plenty people fighting fire with fire, and it's just not helping anyone or anything. So I'm just going to keep listening, with an open mind. I look forward to the day you're inspired to once again stand during our national anthem. I'll be standing right there next to you. Keep on trying ... De Oppresso Liber.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/heres-how-nate-boyer-got-colin-kaepernick-to-go-from-sitting-to-kneeling/

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We sorta came to a middle ground where he would take a knee alongside his teammates," Boyer says. "Soldiers take a knee in front of a fallen brother's grave, you know, to show respect. When we're on a patrol, you know, and we go into a security halt, we take a knee, and we pull security."

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/ex-green-beret-nate-boyer-writes-open-letter-to-trump-kaepernick-nfl-every-single-american/

Edited September 3, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

Hmmm....

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The scene also made an impression on the two teams’ front offices. The Cubs’ management made sure the band played the anthem during the next two games as well, and attendance, which had been in a rut, increased. When the series moved to Boston’s Fenway Park, officials moved the playing of the anthem to the pregame festivities, coupled with the introduction of wounded soldiers who had received free tickets," the authors wrote.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/sep/25/short-history-national-anthem-and-sports/

[Storm Rider]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

 Don't think you understand my politics if you think the flag allegiance disagrees with them.

I only stand to not distract others, I am not making any statement of respect to the flag itself.

I don't see anything inherently disrespectful just because it is not in the traditional manner of standing during the anthem.  It is symbolic language and that changes in meaning from person to person.  To insist there is only one respectful way to act during the anthem is equivalent to me to saying there is only one accent that shows respect during a prayer.

I am guessing that you were never in or affiliated with anyone in the military. As a boy growing up on military bases, - my dad served in the Air Force and retired from serving in the AF - I can remember stopping and standing still with my hand on my heart while the Anthem played every day at noon. If I was sitting I stood, I was walking I stopped. It was highly offensive and not allowed to do anything but show respect to the flag.

If someone wants to protest, then get your butt on the street and protest, but do it on your own time. Do not highjack a time when showing respect to the flay of our nation is paramount to pull some dipwad attempt to protest.  Worse, when your fanny is thrown out of the NFL for your stupid protests, don't whine, don't complain because then I know you wanted to draw attention to yourself, but you certainly did not want to bear any consequences for your "protest".  

Talk about stupid - is when a nation of citizens begin to think that their nation is not worth a cup of spit and that disrespect for its own national symbol is beneath them and their "choice", that they cannot show any form of respect. Show me that nation and I will show you a nation that has already failed and a people incapable of anything except placating their own selfish desires. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I am guessing that you were never in or affiliated with anyone in the military. As a boy growing up on military bases, - my dad served in the Air Force and retired from serving in the AF - I can remember stopping and standing still with my hand on my heart while the Anthem played every day at noon. If I was sitting I stood, I was walking I stopped. It was highly offensive and not allowed to do anything but show respect to the flag.

If someone wants to protest, then get your butt on the street and protest, but do it on your own time. Do not highjack a time when showing respect to the flay of our nation is paramount to pull some dipwad attempt to protest.  Worse, when your fanny is thrown out of the NFL for your stupid protests, don't whine, don't complain because then I know you wanted to draw attention to yourself, but you certainly did not want to bear any consequences for your "protest".  

Talk about stupid - is when a nation of citizens begin to think that their nation is not worth a cup of spit and that disrespect for its own national symbol is beneath them and their "choice", that they cannot show any form of respect. Show me that nation and I will show you a nation that has already failed and a people incapable of anything except placating their own selfish desires. 

(bold mine)

The military are worth everything to me and this country, their superiors that start unneeded wars, not so much. And what is wrong with pointing out the harm the black citizens are going through? Do you want people to behave like Koreans, having to hide their true feelings when they get leaders that aren't good or doing anything to protect individual's rights? No, we need these protests in any venue, where it seems to be the worst time sometimes. We need to express the freedoms these veterens fought and died for. They didn't sacrifice their lives for a people to be afraid to complain at how they're treated. I'm very grateful for that freedom, are you? What happened to showing the black man some love, how much better would that have came off? He'd probably have just moved on and felt the love instead of the backlash. I guess it would take some of these upset people to walk in their shoes to know how that feels, afraid every day for themselves but more for their children that will grow up afraid each day. I get that it should be pointed away from the military themselves, but that flag represents the country's leaders too. Oh, let's see what google says about what the flag represents. Here it is:

"The stripes represent the original 13 Colonies and the stars represent the 50 states of the Union. The colors of the flag are symbolic as well; red symbolizes hardiness and valor, white symbolizes purity and innocence, and blue represents vigilance, perseverance and justice." http://www.pbs.org/a-capitol-fourth/history/old-glory/

Last word on there is justice. Where is the juctice for our black citizens? And why do we sing an anthem that was written by a slave owner?

Here's a poem: http://www.usflag.org/iamtheflag.html

I am the Flag

by Ruth Apperson Rous

I am the flag of the United States of America.

I was born on June 14, 1777, in Philadelphia.

There the Continental Congress adopted my stars and stripes as the national flag.

My thirteen stripes alternating red and white, with a union of thirteen white stars in a field of blue, represented a new constellation, a new nation dedicated to the personal and religious liberty of mankind.

Today fifty stars signal from my union, one for each of the fifty sovereign states in the greatest constitutional republic the world has ever known.

My colors symbolize the patriotic ideals and spiritual qualities of the citizens of my country.

My red stripes proclaim the fearless courage and integrity of American men and boys and the self-sacrifice and devotion of American mothers and daughters.

My white stripes stand for liberty and equality for all.

My blue is the blue of heaven, loyalty, and faith.

I represent these eternal principles: liberty, justice, and humanity.

I embody American freedom: freedom of speech, religion, assembly, the press, and the sanctity of the home.

I typify that indomitable spirit of determination brought to my land by Christopher Columbus and by all my forefathers - the Pilgrims, Puritans, settlers at James town and Plymouth.

I am as old as my nation.

I am a living symbol of my nation's law: the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights.

I voice Abraham Lincoln's philosophy: "A government of the people, by the people,for the people."

I stand guard over my nation's schools, the seedbed of good citizenship and true patriotism.

I am displayed in every schoolroom throughout my nation; every schoolyard has a flag pole for my display.

Daily thousands upon thousands of boys and girls pledge their allegiance to me and my country.

I have my own law—Public Law 829, "The Flag Code" - which definitely states my correct use and display for all occasions and situations.

I have my special day, Flag Day. June 14 is set aside to honor my birth.

Americans, I am the sacred emblem of your country. I symbolize your birthright, your heritage of liberty purchased with blood and sorrow.

I am your title deed of freedom, which is yours to enjoy and hold in trust for posterity.

If you fail to keep this sacred trust inviolate, if I am nullified and destroyed, you and your children will become slaves to dictators and despots.

Eternal vigilance is your price of freedom.

As you see me silhouetted against the peaceful skies of my country, remind yourself that I am the flag of your country, that I stand for what you are - no more, no less.

Guard me well, lest your freedom perish from the earth.

Dedicate your lives to those principles for which I stand: "One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

I was created in freedom. I made my first appearance in a battle for human liberty.

God grant that I may spend eternity in my "land of the free and the home of the brave" and that I shall ever be known as "Old Glory," the flag of the United States of America.

🇺🇸

Me: Notice what it says in this poem? I bolded them. This may be why Colin felt the need to protest during the flag ceremony. Protesting the fact that our country isn't following what the flag represents. It's them (racists or corrupt law enforcement or some leaders of our nation) that are spitting on the military and the flag, IMO!

BTW, not that it really matters, but I come from a military family on my mom's side, all three brothers served. One of my uncles was thrown onto a truck full of dead soldiers because they thought he was dead, he was near death. And his sons went onto serving as well. My dad had broke his back after falling from a tree and was deemed physically unfit to serve, but he tried to enlist or went through the process.

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Tacenda

[Calm]

“am guessing that you were never in or affiliated with anyone in the military.”

You would be quite wrong. 

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Talk about stupid - is when a nation of citizens begin to think that their nation is not worth a cup of spit and that disrespect for its own national symbol is beneath them and their "choice", that they cannot show any form of respect. Show me that nation and I will show you a nation that has already failed and a people incapable of anything except placating their own selfish desires. 

Obviously you feel strongly about this but put aside emotions and let's think rationally. The bolded part of your statement contains a major logical flaw. If someone is protesting to make the country better, then it obviously shows that they care about the country and that the country is worth something to them. Why would I want to change something I don't care about? If I burned the flag and an effigy of Trump and shouted "Death to America!" then yeah, I don't care about the country; I just want its destruction. But this is not what is happening here. You are blowing this idea of disrespect WAY out of proportion. They are not burning the flag. They are not trampling the flag. They are not saying how disgusting the flag is or the country it stands for. They are not shouting "Death to America!" They are kneeling, which is itself a sign of respect in various contexts. Please read the articles linked by Calm and find out how all of this started. Please listen to what these players themselves have to say about their actions. Do like the green beret did: listen to what they are saying and try to understand why they are doing it.

I also find your hyperbole in your conclusion ridiculous: some NFL players kneel during the national anthem and you conclude that our nation "has already failed." If kneeling players makes our nation a failure, then our nation must not have been very strong or great to begin with. On the contrary, I think our nation is strong and great and therefore will weather the kneeling player controversy just fine, and perhaps come out even better at the end. We are not a failed nation, we are a nation that is continually trying to improve itself to offer, as the pledge says, "liberty and justice to all."

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Obviously you feel strongly about this but put aside emotions and let's think rationally. The bolded part of your statement contains a major logical flaw. If someone is protesting to make the country better, then it obviously shows that they care about the country and that the country is worth something to them. Why would I want to change something I don't care about? If I burned the flag and an effigy of Trump and shouted "Death to America!" then yeah, I don't care about the country; I just want its destruction. But this is not what is happening here. You are blowing this idea of disrespect WAY out of proportion. They are not burning the flag. They are not trampling the flag. They are not saying how disgusting the flag is or the country it stands for. They are not shouting "Death to America!" They are kneeling, which is itself a sign of respect in various contexts. Please read the articles linked by Calm and find out how all of this started. Please listen to what these players themselves have to say about their actions. Do like the green beret did: listen to what they are saying and try to understand why they are doing it.

I also find your hyperbole in your conclusion ridiculous: some NFL players kneel during the national anthem and you conclude that our nation "has already failed." If kneeling players makes our nation a failure, then our nation must not have been very strong or great to begin with. On the contrary, I think our nation is strong and great and therefore will weather the kneeling player controversy just fine, and perhaps come out even better at the end. We are not a failed nation, we are a nation that is continually trying to improve itself to offer, as the pledge says, "liberty and justice to all."

Always enjoy your comments even when I disagree I enjoy hearing from you.

I have no problem with a protest, any protest. I think that every citizen has the right to protest. The point that I am strongly against is stupidity. Do I think that doctors and nurses should protest overpopulation while a woman is giving birth? No - not the right time or place. Do I think that there should be protests against priests abusing other humans during Mass? Nope, not the right time or place. Do I think that there should protest Trump administration officials while they are dining with friends? Nope, again wrong time and wrong place.  Do I think that we should have protests during the National Anthem on national television at a football game or any other sporting event? Nope, again, it is the wrong time and the wrong place.

I wish we could know the sincerity of protestors - know their motivations. It might make others more sympathetic if we understand the real reasons why they protest. In this situation, if one of the instigators of this concept of - let's protest during the national anthem at an NFL game - was really serious. There would never be a whine about not playing football again. If you want to protest and are serious, you are not going to whine about being out of a job. Why is he out of a job? Because he has become persona non grata and a marketing nightmare for an industry that still wants to make billions of dollars and is not interested in their brand becoming a political football. It was a stupid choice and he is paying the price for it and he should pay the price for stupid choices just like every other human that makes a stupid choice.

The nation fails when its citizens have forgotten the value of their country. Remember, we are talking about a very select group of individual athletes that merit millions of dollars a year to entertain the public who is interested in their sport. No one plays that game because of their race, their ability to provide profound commentary on the US Constitution, or their ability to function as a medical doctor. They are paid to perform at what they are specialized in and at a level that few could match in the world. 

If these athletes wanted to really make an impact on a social cause, then get together at an event that has no other purpose than to discuss their social cause of choice. The national media would be there in abundance and everyone would listen. More importantly, they would not be disrespecting anything. To the contrary, everyone that listened would expect them to protest and to comment. 

This nation does not value their citizenship. Visit the United Arab Emirates (or any of the GCC nations) during their celebrations for their National Day. It seems like the vast majority of vehicles have pictures of their founder, Sheik Zayed and the current national leaders. Everyone respects their flag and their country. They value their citizenship and guard it closely. If someone is in their country illegally they are either put in jail, serve their time, and then taken to the airport and sent back to their home nation - or they are taken straight away to the airport and returned. What is unique is that they take fingerprints and eye-retina scans to enter the nation and have a visa, and then no illegal is ever allowed in again. Citizenship means something to them.