Is there room?

[JLHPROF]

Depends on the definition of monastic.

Separate from the world, yes.

Separate from families, other believers, and those we can help, no.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

.............................

Also, I would not envision this process as one that emulates the lives of Catholic religious - monks, nuns, priests, etc. However, it certainly could use some of their better examples to assist in organizing. 

How about the monasteries of Tibetan monks or nuns?  What part of such lives doesn't fit your conception?

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Valentinus said:

Could an LDS monastic life be a product of the "in the world, not of the world" philosophy?

Heck yeah.

I meditate daily, control my diet carefully, and live a pretty stoic life.

Fideism as really at the root of the Mormon view when you consider the importance of testimony or direct communion with God.

And true monasticism does not eschew community. Community participation is essential. You cannot engage in perechoiresis without community. Dancing alone just doesn't do it.

Our community wears religious habits arguably,  and call each other brothers and sisters. We wear special vestments for our most sacred ceremonies.

We are even accused sometimes of excluding those not of our community.

I think someone who it says we cannot be monastic simply does not understand what true monasticism is. At its core it is Brotherhood and Sisterhood. People working together to grow closer to God.

It is a lifestyle just as Mormonism is a lifestyle. We are a lay priesthood each one of us, each family a monastery unto their own.

No we are not celibate. But celibacy began ling after monasticism did.

Just do it.

Be in the world and not of it. 

Edited August 19, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Garden Girl]

Living alone as I do (except for a pushy cat named Bob) is semi monastic... and I love it... it suits me fine, and I'm happy with my life.  The Church helps of course because I love the Gospel, and can be as social as I choose... I have a widow friend at Church who is just the opposite.  She can hardly bear being alone, so I guess it depends on the person.  I cherish my being alone... my days are filled with good music, art, reading, what gardening I can still do, the beach (where I do some of my best praying/contemplation), crossword puzzles, some TV... I have such wonderful memories of my life with my husband, and joy in knowing we are sealed... and the confidence I have that he is waiting for me... I am at peace....

from the beach... GG

[Storm Rider]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

How about the monasteries of Tibetan monks or nuns?  What part of such lives doesn't fit your conception?

Robert, my intention was to put to rest the idea that we would try to be something else - to be Catholic - or any other religion. I think the manner found within Tibetan monks and nuns is easily a model we could learn from if this was to move forward.

[MiserereNobis]

18 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

We are social creatures. It is certainly easier to love one's neighbour when one doesn't have any neighbours, but that's not our understanding of how best to follow the Lord's commandments.

This is a big misunderstanding of the monastic life. All monks have neighbors -- their fellow monks. And getting along with fellow monks is often harder then getting along with your "neighbor" because you're life isn't intertwined with your neighbor as tightly as it is with your fellow monks.

I've long been drawn to the monastic life and have spent lots of time in monasteries, talking to monks, and reading books by monks. They all talk about how hard it can be dealing with their fellow monks. They also point out that this creates humility and reliance upon God.

Maybe the parallel would be Mormon missionaries? Aren't they always together in pairs? I'm sure some of you old missionaries had a problem with your missionary pair. Imagine having to be with that person for the rest of your life, not just for the time on your mission. You'd have to learn how to get over the issues and truly love that person.

That's a big part of monasticism.

[MiserereNobis]

18 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As a rule, Latter-day Saints don't do withdrawal from the world; we do engagement with with world.

I'll also add that from the Catholic point-of-view, the prayers of the contemplative monastic orders are considered incredibly beneficial to the world at large. These are people who sacrifice so much, live a very difficult life, give themselves to God, and spend most of their time praying for the world. They may not be physically engaged with the world, but they are intimately and powerfully engaged with the world spiritually.

Some people try to make the argument that they would do more good if they were out helping the poor, sick, etc. The number of contemplative monastics is so small that there is no danger of masses of people leaving the poor unattended (and don't forget that the number of members of non-monastic religious orders who serve the poor, such as the Franciscans, greatly outnumbers contemplative monastics). We also believe, as I said above, that someone praying basically non-stop is necessary for the good of the world and that their prayers, combined with the physical efforts of others, is a great help to the poor.

[MiserereNobis]

14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

the way Trappist monk Thomas Merton wrote about his experience with serious Buddhist meditation in his Seven Storey Mountain (Harcourt Brace, 1948).

"Seven Storey Mountain" is not about Buddhist meditation at all. It is about Thomas Merton's conversion to Catholicism and his calling to become a Trappist. It doesn't talk about Buddhism. It talks about Catholicism and Catholic contemplative practice.

The book was instrumental in my own conversion.

Merton did study and write about Buddhism later in his life, but he was faithful to Catholicism until the end.

[BonhoefferFan]

It really depends on what you mean by monastic.  Can Church members separate themselves from their communities for periods of time (week or two) for a retreat? 

Sure.  In fact I would openly encourage it.

Can they seclude themselves from the world on a more permanent basis by moving to the Yukon and living a simple life?

Again...sure.  They could even do it with friends and form a community. 

Can they do it under religious auspices?  Probably not, at least not with formal recognition. 

But the principles of monasticism are easily practiced without going to a monastery.  Also, there are a lot of monasteries where you can visit for a period of reflection, participate in monastic life without needing to join the community, or in some cases without even needing to be a member of the religious tradition.  I've stayed in a few simply as a guest (it's cheap) while on vacation in Europe.  There is one in South Carolina that is welcoming people for short periods of time. 

I am a huge fan of short term monastic-like periods of reflection and meditation.  Many Buddhist traditions will allow people to do this.  There is one in upstate New York...Zen Mountain Monastery I believe, I have wanted to go to for a while, but have been unable to find the time. 

[BonhoefferFan]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Merton did study and write about Buddhism later in his life, but he was faithful to Catholicism until the end.

One could be both a faithful Catholic and committed Buddhist.  Roshi Kennedy comes to mind...

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

"Seven Storey Mountain" is not about Buddhist meditation at all. It is about Thomas Merton's conversion to Catholicism and his calling to become a Trappist. It doesn't talk about Buddhism. It talks about Catholicism and Catholic contemplative practice.

The book was instrumental in my own conversion.

Merton did study and write about Buddhism later in his life, but he was faithful to Catholicism until the end.

Sorry.  My bad.   I did know that he studied Buddhist methods and highly respected them.  I think that any of us can learn something from other religious disciplines without converting to them.  I thought that was what he did.

[MiserereNobis]

15 minutes ago, BonhoefferFan said:

One could be both a faithful Catholic and committed Buddhist.  Roshi Kennedy comes to mind...

False. The doctrines of Catholicism and Buddhism are too contradictory.

One could try to be a faithful Catholic and practice Buddhist meditation, but one cannot be a faithful Catholic and a committed Buddhist without heavily watering down at least the Catholic side of things and I imagine the Buddhist side, too. I can't image a faithful Catholic truly believing that chanting "Buddham saranam gacchami" (I take refuge in the Buddha) isn't contradicting the 2nd commandment and isn't negating the fact that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven.

Cardinal Ratzinger (who later became Pope Benedict XVI) was acting as prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith when he sent a letter to all bishops of the Catholic Church about Christian meditation. In it, he mentioned some problems that could arise when you combine Christian and Eastern meditation:

Quote

12. With the present diffusion of eastern methods of meditation in  the Christian world and in ecclesial communities, we find ourselves  faced with a pointed renewal of an attempt, which is not free from  dangers and errors, "to fuse Christian meditation with that which  is non-Christian." Proposals in this direction are numerous and  radical to a greater or lesser extent. Some use eastern methods solely  as a psycho-physical preparation for a truly Christian contemplation;  others go further and, using different techniques, try to generate  spiritual experiences similar to those described in the writings of  certain Catholic mystics.13 Still others do not hesitate to place that  absolute without image or concepts, which is proper to Buddhist theory,  14 on the same level as the majesty of God revealed in Christ, which  towers above finite reality. To this end, they make use of a  "negative theology," which transcends every affirmation seeking to express what God is, and denies that the things of this world  can offer traces of the infinity of God. Thus they propose abandoning  not only meditation on the salvific works accomplished in history by the  God of the Old and New Covenant, but also the very idea of the One and  Triune God, who is Love, in favor of an immersion "in the  indeterminate abyss of the divinity."15 These and similar proposals to harmonize Christian meditation with eastern techniques need to have  their contents and methods ever subjected to a thorough-going  examination so as to avoid the danger of falling into syncretism.

 

[MiserereNobis]

34 minutes ago, BonhoefferFan said:

I am a huge fan of short term monastic-like periods of reflection and meditation.  Many Buddhist traditions will allow people to do this.  There is one in upstate New York...Zen Mountain Monastery I believe, I have wanted to go to for a while, but have been unable to find the time. 

All Catholic Benedictine monasteries offer this, too. It is written in the Benedictine Rule to accept visitors as if you are accepting Christ Himself.

I go on monastic retreat regularly at two contemplative monasteries in my state:

www.christdesert.org

www.ourladyofguadalupemonastery.com

Both are absolutely beautiful and allow you to stay and live with the monastics for short retreats, some guided, some not. Here is the church from the Christ in the Desert monastery (which is located 13 miles down a dirt road surrounded by wilderness areas on all sides):

Here is Our Lady of Guadalupe monastery:

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I think so. Christ fasted alone in the wilderness for 40 days. So we have some precedent for contemplation in solitude.

Yes, but not an extended solitude that a monastic life would imply. I bet Jesus was happier up on the mountains but that is not where his (or our) mission is.

Edited August 19, 2018 by The Nehor

[pogi]

On 8/18/2018 at 3:32 PM, Valentinus said:

Is there room in Mormonism** for a monastic way of life? If so, how could the church go about incorporating such a practice? Would it need to begin with a younger generation? Personally, I would love to see what that looks like.

In many ways I am drawn to monasticism, but in practice Mormonism (for lack of a better word) is probably more closely related to Judaism and Islam as it does not encourage the monastic ideal of celibacy and poverty.  We view prosperity as both a blessing and a tool to serve God with joy.  We view marriage and sex as perhaps the pinnacle of spiritual expression and experience.  Islam forbids the practice but encourages simplicity and to avoid excess.  Muhammad taught to some of his companions who wanted to stop sexual practice and fast continuously, “Do not do that! Fast on some days and eat on others. Sleep part of the night, and stand in prayer another part. For your body has rights upon you, your eyes have a right upon you, your wife has a right upon you, your guest has a right upon you.” On another occasion he taught, “Moderation, moderation! For only with moderation will you succeed.”  Those are all teachings in the restored Church of Jesus Christ (avoided "Mormon" with that one.  This is harder than I thought). 

We follow monastic principles, but use a different path of practice to meet the same end. Namely we believe and covenant to dedicate our lives and our everything to God.  Our poverty is in spirit rather than substance, and our celibacy is to abstain from wickedness, to not have intercourse with the ways of the adversary.  All things are spiritual in Mormonism.  Everything we do should be for the glory of God.

I am probably about as close to monastic as they come in the church.  I meditate twice daily and am very much a minimalist.  I find spiritual refuge in solitude in the mountains and deserts of Utah and try to take a 1 week retreat annually to pray, fast, and journal write.  It is usually the highlight of my year.  It is spiritually rejuvenating and sets the course for the rest of my year. But I believe in moderation and relate more with Mohammad's teachings on the matter.  But the principles, more than the practice, of monasticism I completely believe in.  We don't live by alms, we don't live by codified monastic rules and creeds, but we do devote ourselves fully to spiritual work and renounce worldly pursuits.  In the Mormonism, what some may consider "worldly" we view as tools of spirituality, joy, and service, gifts and blessings when used for good. 

It is all about moderation in Mormonism, but unfortunately I find that most members are imbalanced in seeking spiritual solitude as encouraged by the prophets.  Without it, I find it impossible to truly live in the world but not of the world.  We become spiritually blinded and lost:

Quote

 

President McKay encouraged all Latter-day Saints to pursue this ideal in their worship services and in their personal lives. He said, “To have communion with God, through his Holy Spirit, is one of the noblest aspirations of life.”

Meditation leads to spiritual communion with God through the Holy Spirit.

We pay too little attention to the value of meditation, a principle of devotion. In our worship there are two elements: One is spiritual communion arising from our own meditation; the other, instruction from others, particularly from those who have authority to guide and instruct us. Of the two, the more profitable introspectively is the meditation. Meditation is the language of the soul. It is defined as “a form of private devotion, or spiritual exercise, consisting in deep, continued reflection on some religious theme.” Meditation is a form of prayer. …

Meditation is one of the most secret, most sacred doors through which we pass into the presence of the Lord. Jesus set the example for us. As soon as he was baptized and received the Father’s approval, “This is my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,” [Matthew 3:17] Jesus [went] to what is now known as the mount of temptation. I like to think of it as the mount of meditation where, during the forty days of fasting, he communed with himself and his Father, and contemplated upon the responsibility of his great mission.One result of this spiritual communion was such strength as enabled him to say to the tempter:

“… Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” (Matt. 4:10.)

Before he gave … the beautiful sermon on the mount, he was in solitude, in communion. He did the same thing after that busy Sabbath day, when he arose early in the morning, after having been the guest of Peter. Peter undoubtedly found the guest chamber empty, and when they sought [Jesus] they found him alone. It was on that morning that Peter said:

“… All men seek for thee.” (Mark 1:37.)

Again, after Jesus had fed the five thousand he told the Twelve to dismiss the multitude, but Jesus went to the mountain for solitude. The historian says, “when the evening was come, he was there alone.” (Matt. 14:23.) Meditation! Prayer!  

Let us make God the center of our lives. … To have communion with God, through his Holy Spirit, is one of the noblest aspirations of life. It is when the peace and love of God have entered the soul, when serving him becomes the motivating factor in one’s life and existence.

Strive in your homes, and teach others, to take some time of each day to have a quiet hour, meditation. Let there be study of the scriptures at least thirty minutes of each day. At an early morning hour, or at late night, as best suits your schedule, allow yourself an hour of prayerful meditation where you can tune in with God and discuss with Him problems that are too much for human understanding, too great for human strength.

 

 

[MiserereNobis]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

but in practice Mormonism (for lack of a better word)

Um, the better word is "restored gospel of Jesus Christ"  Oh wait, that's not a word, it's a phrase. You're right, Mormonism it is

 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Um, the better word is "restored gospel of Jesus Christ"  Oh wait, that's not a word, it's a phrase. You're right, Mormonism it is

 

I might settle on "THE Church of Christ" .

Now if that doesn't  give the EV's heebie jeebies I don't know what will.

 

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

All Catholic Benedictine monasteries offer this, too. It is written in the Benedictine Rule to accept visitors as if you are accepting Christ Himself.

I go on monastic retreat regularly at two contemplative monasteries in my state:

www.christdesert.org

www.ourladyofguadalupemonastery.com

Both are absolutely beautiful and allow you to stay and live with the monastics for short retreats, some guided, some not. Here is the church from the Christ in the Desert monastery (which is located 13 miles down a dirt road surrounded by wilderness areas on all sides):

Here is Our Lady of Guadalupe monastery:

Sign me up! Love it! 

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Robert, my intention was to put to rest the idea that we would try to be something else - to be Catholic - or any other religion. I think the manner found within Tibetan monks and nuns is easily a model we could learn from if this was to move forward.

Perhaps in some organized manner?  But separate from the LDS Church and welcoming to people from any background?

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Perhaps in some organized manner?  But separate from the LDS Church and welcoming to people from any background?

I would think if this were to be done by members of the Church of Jesus Christ, that it would be focused on members, but all would be welcome as long as they were able to commit to the rules of the respective monastery or group. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I would think if this were to be done by members of the Church of Jesus Christ, that it would be focused on members, but all would be welcome as long as they were able to commit to the rules of the respective monastery or group. 

Would they be communal?  With some long-term members, as well as some short-term people just coming for a retreat (vacation retreat)?  Any idea how it would be organized, as a practical matter?

[Storm Rider]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Would they be communal?  With some long-term members, as well as some short-term people just coming for a retreat (vacation retreat)?  Any idea how it would be organized, as a practical matter?

If I was organizing it I would think it necessary to have a base of individuals that were committed to the long-term in order to achieve a degree of stability. Once there is a significant enough size, I would see the retreat process beginning. 

As with most organizations, this would initially require some funding or donations to create the space. I could easily see some monasteries being unisex while others having married couples. It is really a response to needs and the intentions of those individuals that have formed the monastery. If their idea works then it will have legs and others will join.

Though I see no need to coordinate with Church it may be that some form of coordination would develop. I could easily see this building on the United Order concept - all your assets are given to the group and the group room, board, and the opportunity to live a life of holiness peace, etc. 

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Perhaps in some organized manner?  But separate from the LDS Church and welcoming to people from any background?

Just to clarify what I think, I personally would not condone an "organized movement". Too divisive. They become an "us vs them" "In" group vs the "out" group immediately.

When I first joined the church I noticed and appreciated the fact that the entire church was dedicated to God. We wore the Garment of the priesthood and called each other brother and sister.

To me that was like an entire church that was a religious order. The entire designation of "laity" became irrelevant.

I found that unity compelling, and would hate to see anything change that.

Edited August 20, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

If I was organizing it I would think it necessary to have a base of individuals that were committed to the long-term in order to achieve a degree of stability. Once there is a significant enough size, I would see the retreat process beginning. 

As with most organizations, this would initially require some funding or donations to create the space. I could easily see some monasteries being unisex while others having married couples. It is really a response to needs and the intentions of those individuals that have formed the monastery. If their idea works then it will have legs and others will join.

Though I see no need to coordinate with Church it may be that some form of coordination would develop. I could easily see this building on the United Order concept - all your assets are given to the group and the group room, board, and the opportunity to live a life of holiness peace, etc. 

Twenty years down the road, suppose there are problems in some groups.

"Unrighteous dominion". 

"Amen to the priesthood of that man" stuff. Polygamy.

The church tries to shut them down.

Sounds like history repeating itself? People are people. It WILL happen.

[Storm Rider]

13 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Twenty years down the road, suppose there are problems in some groups.

"Unrighteous dominion". 

"Amen to the priesthood of that man" stuff. Polygamy.

The church tries to shut them down.

Sounds like history repeating itself? People are people. It WILL happen.

If there are humans involved there will be problems. The heresy problem I think is handled like every other heresy problem is in the church - I don't see this as having a high probability of being a major problem. I suspect that most of these would be unisex and so polygamy is not a real issue. Will humans devoted to living a life of holiness have sexual problems? Yes, I suspect there would be those that would have a problem. If you don't live by the rules of the group you are shown the door.

As I said above, if there are humans there will be problems. However, what is gained by having groups of people who work together and seek holiness together on a daily basis? I see this as an answer for those in the Church who do not have large extended families or who do not have a social safety net to rely upon. It opens the door a more fulfilling life of those who are single or those who have become single.