BonhoefferFan Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 21 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: False. The doctrines of Catholicism and Buddhism are too contradictory. Given that there are Catholic priests who are also priests in Buddhist traditions, I would disagree. (Truthfully, Buddhist Priest is something of a misnomer, it would be more akin to being a Rabbi, a learned sage, which might demonstrate the ability for both to coexist)
mfbukowski Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 54 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: If there are humans involved there will be problems. The heresy problem I think is handled like every other heresy problem is in the church - I don't see this as having a high probability of being a major problem. I suspect that most of these would be unisex and so polygamy is not a real issue. Will humans devoted to living a life of holiness have sexual problems? Yes, I suspect there would be those that would have a problem. If you don't live by the rules of the group you are shown the door. As I said above, if there are humans there will be problems. However, what is gained by having groups of people who work together and seek holiness together on a daily basis? I see this as an answer for those in the Church who do not have large extended families or who do not have a social safety net to rely upon. It opens the door a more fulfilling life of those who are single or those who have become single. Well I can follow this line of reasoning too. Maybe what we need is an SSA Ward structure similar to the YSA structure. "Senior Single Adults" I have discovered that just being old gives you an instant kinship with people. In a mall full of young people if there is an old guy walking along he will instantly acknowledge you give you a nod and a smile, when you too are an old guy. You are both veterans in the war of living, among the ranks of those who have endured. I can see a need for that especially in the days when life will be extended over a hundred years for virtually everyone. Imagine being a "senior citizen" for 50 years.
clarkgoble Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) On 8/18/2018 at 3:32 PM, Valentinus said: Is there room in Mormonism** for a monastic way of life? If so, how could the church go about incorporating such a practice? Would it need to begin with a younger generation? Personally, I would love to see what that looks like. **I'm not getting caught up in the name usage debate. 15 pages of exhaustive dialogue! Good grief! Depends upon what you mean. I'd argue that in a certain way various United Order attempts like Orderville were more or less monastic in outlook even if they were done with families. I think the big problem you have is that most monastic like orders, whether Christian, Buddhist or other, take vows of celibacy and are totally cut off from the world. Our conception of the importance of families makes that unlikely. Could there be a return to something like Orderville? I don't know. I tend to see those more as Brigham Young trying out various economic models especially around his conception of self-sufficiency. However from a purely economic perspective of course self-sufficiency is very inefficient as compared to specialization. It's also pretty hard to be self-sufficient in the desert and near desert environments in Utah. I think that it was that isolation/self-sufficiency that many of the other apostles saw as a problem. The emphasis on self-sufficiency largely got dropped once Brigham died. Of course to be fair the conditions in 1850-1880 were quite different from what came after. And unarguably even Brigham saw the benefits of the railway which changed everything. But there's no reason you couldn't move to a more isolated model akin to say what the Amish do. I can't see any good reason to do it though and lots of good reasons against it. Edited August 20, 2018 by clarkgoble
mfbukowski Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 22 minutes ago, BonhoefferFan said: Given that there are Catholic priests who are also priests in Buddhist traditions, I would disagree. (Truthfully, Buddhist Priest is something of a misnomer, it would be more akin to being a Rabbi, a learned sage, which might demonstrate the ability for both to coexist) You clearly need to post more so that at least I can give you rep points. We in the west tend to be long on Doctrine and short on Practice. Doctrine tends to be the attempt to define what cannot be defined, and so actually becomes parables, but is seldom regarded that way. And so we confuse science with the religion. Scopes trial. Bellarmine vs Galileo. In the East thankfully they don't have that problem.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Just to clarify what I think, I personally would not condone an "organized movement". Too divisive. They become an "us vs them" "In" group vs the "out" group immediately. When I first joined the church I noticed and appreciated the fact that the entire church was dedicated to God. We wore the Garment of the priesthood and called each other brother and sister. To me that was like an entire church that was a religious order. The entire designation of "laity" became irrelevant. I found that unity compelling, and would hate to see anything change that. True enough. However, I have been impressed with some Roman Catholic groups (Holy Orders) such as the Franciscans. Apart from that, we have had various organizations on campus --- LDSSA (which is only independent at Harvard), the Temple Riders Association (a Mormon biker club), the Stormin' Mormons (another motorcycle club), Segullah (a Mormon book club), the Millennial Mormon Book Club, Fuego Fridays (a non-alcohol dance club in Provo, pandering to the BYU crowd), etc. So why not a society for meditation and maybe some Tai Chi? 2
pogi Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said: So why not a society for meditation and maybe some Tai Chi? That would be great. There is one such community in SLC called Lower Lights Sangha, that has received some national attention: https://www.npr.org/2017/06/17/533327601/in-salt-lake-city-youll-find-mormons-who-meditate https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865684274/What-a-Mormon-doing-Buddhist-meditation-has-to-do-with-the-future-of-faith.html Thomas McConkie is the founder, he is also in the band Lower Lights - a hymnal revival band played in folk/bluegrass style. Excellent band! If I remember correctly, MiserereNobis is a fan and has posted their excellent rendition of If You Could Hie to Kolob on these boards before. They have a 2 hour meeting and group meditation monthly. I love to see things like this from active members of the church! I have considered starting a meditative prayer group myself specifically for recovering addicts, as I found it to be a central part of my own healing process - kind of an adjunct to the 12 step program of the church. What I would really love to see though are, not monasteries per se, but Mormon retreat centers/sanctuaries for prayer/meditation, fasting, introspection and spiritual revitalization by disengaging from the world for a week or so to live and learn principles of simplicity and pure attention to the Lord. There would be no long-term communal members who devote themselves to a life of poverty, relying on alms, and celibacy, but it would be run by rotating volunteer member couples, sort of like church visitor centers. That would be so cool and so helpful in our church, I think. 3
Storm Rider Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 1 hour ago, clarkgoble said: Depends upon what you mean. I'd argue that in a certain way various United Order attempts like Orderville were more or less monastic in outlook even if they were done with families. I think the big problem you have is that most monastic like orders, whether Christian, Buddhist or other, take vows of celibacy and are totally cut off from the world. Our conception of the importance of families makes that unlikely. Could there be a return to something like Orderville? I don't know. I tend to see those more as Brigham Young trying out various economic models especially around his conception of self-sufficiency. However from a purely economic perspective of course self-sufficiency is very inefficient as compared to specialization. It's also pretty hard to be self-sufficient in the desert and near desert environments in Utah. I think that it was that isolation/self-sufficiency that many of the other apostles saw as a problem. The emphasis on self-sufficiency largely got dropped once Brigham died. Of course to be fair the conditions in 1850-1880 were quite different from what came after. And unarguably even Brigham saw the benefits of the railway which changed everything. But there's no reason you couldn't move to a more isolated model akin to say what the Amish do. I can't see any good reason to do it though and lots of good reasons against it. 3 Celibacy is a non-starter within our community; however, a definite commitment to chastity is a vital part of our vision of living in this world. Living with things in common seems to work well for other groups in other religions. It seems like it would work with a group of LDS who felt like this is a way of life is appealing to them and open to them.
clarkgoble Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 24 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Celibacy is a non-starter within our community; however, a definite commitment to chastity is a vital part of our vision of living in this world. Yes, although it applies to all. I think though this highlights the fundamental difference. Completely withdrawing from the world where the world implies all concerns with the material world seems a non-starter. Part of that is that Mormonism is fundamentally materialistic in outlook. So minimizing the world in order to manifest the spiritual makes little sense here. 24 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Living with things in common seems to work well for other groups in other religions. It seems like it would work with a group of LDS who felt like this is a way of life is appealing to them and open to them. There's nothing stopping people from doing that on a small community level. Although there are well known problems with doing that in practice. (There's a reason all those communes of the early 70's fell apart) I think it's the isolation that I find problematic. But once you eliminate that all you've really done is recreate service missions. (IMO) 1
mfbukowski Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: True enough. However, I have been impressed with some Roman Catholic groups (Holy Orders) such as the Franciscans. Apart from that, we have had various organizations on campus --- LDSSA (which is only independent at Harvard), the Temple Riders Association (a Mormon biker club), the Stormin' Mormons (another motorcycle club), Segullah (a Mormon book club), the Millennial Mormon Book Club, Fuego Fridays (a non-alcohol dance club in Provo, pandering to the BYU crowd), etc. So why not a society for meditation and maybe some Tai Chi? Sounds good to me- I will sponsor an LA chapter until my Stake President gives me a frown at High Council meeting. THEN it will become an interesting choice to make. The good news about the "mission field" is that the members were NOT raised in the church and so should be more "open" to non-traditional views. On the other hand, because that is the case, the sheperds tend to be more "on guard" and sometimes over zealous. My particular stake pres is a great guy though and a good friend- but I can see problems from others. We have been instructed to NOT have "study groups" but some have been quasi-"authorized" such as the Miller-Eccles group which is wonderful and which I heartily endorse. We need more of these in So. Cal. This group is not really a "study group" in that sense- it is more of an "Extension" group for LDS. If you are in So Cal you MUST attend these talks! http://www.millereccles.org/ Such groups are not questioned in Utah but here.... meh.
Storm Rider Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 2 hours ago, clarkgoble said: Yes, although it applies to all. I think though this highlights the fundamental difference. Completely withdrawing from the world where the world implies all concerns with the material world seems a non-starter. Part of that is that Mormonism is fundamentally materialistic in outlook. So minimizing the world in order to manifest the spiritual makes little sense here. There's nothing stopping people from doing that on a small community level. Although there are well known problems with doing that in practice. (There's a reason all those communes of the early 70's fell apart) I think it's the isolation that I find problematic. But once you eliminate that all you've really done is recreate service missions. (IMO) 1 Again, I think that is stating the obvious regarding communal living. The problem with your reasoning is that you are comparing apples and oranges. There is no comparison between the communes of the 70's and monasteries. I think up to this point the church has not had an opportunity or the need to explore alternative methods for individuals to devote their lives to contemplative prayer and holiness. Further, I don't think the concept of recreation is involved in what appeals to me about this concept. For me, I am pretty confident that if my wife passed before me there is no question of marrying again. Now, things change, but I am pretty sure I will always feel this way. In addition, we have two children and it does not look like we are going to have more than four grandchildren at the most. The life of contemplative prayer and efforts to holiness is appealing. I think there are other people who might have the same objectives and interest. Agreed, this is up to interested people to form and it is not dependent on the church. Maybe in the future, if there is a bigger need or interest the Church may simply acknowledge their existence, but I don't see any need for a formal acknowledgment or cooperation.
clarkgoble Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Storm Rider said: Again, I think that is stating the obvious regarding communal living. The problem with your reasoning is that you are comparing apples and oranges. There is no comparison between the communes of the 70's and monasteries. Why? 1 minute ago, Storm Rider said: I think up to this point the church has not had an opportunity or the need to explore alternative methods for individuals to devote their lives to contemplative prayer and holiness. Further, I don't think the concept of recreation is involved in what appeals to me about this concept. More or less what I was alluding to is that the Church doesn't think contemplative prayer and holiness is something to be focused on exclusively. Rather that comes as through extended sacrifice in service to others. So the closest thing is missionary service. The problem there is that pretty much unmarried men over 25 are excluded. For women or couples though it's definitely a choice, although then there's the issue of funding.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Sounds good to me- I will sponsor an LA chapter until my Stake President gives me a frown at High Council meeting. THEN it will become an interesting choice to make. The good news about the "mission field" is that the members were NOT raised in the church and so should be more "open" to non-traditional views. On the other hand, because that is the case, the sheperds tend to be more "on guard" and sometimes over zealous. My particular stake pres is a great guy though and a good friend- but I can see problems from others. We have been instructed to NOT have "study groups" but some have been quasi-"authorized" such as the Miller-Eccles group which is wonderful and which I heartily endorse. We need more of these in So. Cal. This group is not really a "study group" in that sense- it is more of an "Extension" group for LDS. If you are in So Cal you MUST attend these talks! http://www.millereccles.org/ Such groups are not questioned in Utah but here.... meh. Yeh, Miller-Eccles has been around forever. There used to be lots of study groups here in Utah. John Sorenson and Leonard Arrington were in one together. A lot of great friendships developed among the intellectual elite. Maybe if we had some Mormon refugees from an ashram in India, or from a Tibetan lamasary in Nepal, we might be able to draw on their experience with monastic discipline for thursday nite meditation sessions. Sitting za zen in Japan. Mormon taekwondo clubs in Seoul, Korea? Tai Chi clubs in Hong Kong and Shanghai? Maybe such things already exist. ETA: I now see that it does exist: pogi provides these instances -- https://www.npr.org/2017/06/17/533327601/in-salt-lake-city-youll-find-mormons-who-meditate https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865684274/What-a-Mormon-doing-Buddhist-meditation-has-to-do-with-the-future-of-faith.html Edited August 20, 2018 by Robert F. Smith
BonhoefferFan Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 On 8/20/2018 at 6:19 PM, mfbukowski said: You clearly need to post more so that at least I can give you rep points. We in the west tend to be long on Doctrine and short on Practice. Doctrine tends to be the attempt to define what cannot be defined, and so actually becomes parables, but is seldom regarded that way. And so we confuse science with the religion. Scopes trial. Bellarmine vs Galileo. In the East thankfully they don't have that problem. Who has the time...? But I like the Eastern approach to faith. Far more interested in doing than in talking.
mfbukowski Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, BonhoefferFan said: Who has the time...? But I like the Eastern approach to faith. Far more interested in doing than in talking. Exactly. And that is why it is said that Mormons do not even have a true Orthodoxy instead we are involved in orthopraxis. We have no clear definition of Doctrine and really don't need one. We have the temple recommend questions instead. Edited August 21, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yeh, Miller-Eccles has been around forever. There used to be lots of study groups here in Utah. John Sorenson and Leonard Arrington were in one together. A lot of great friendships developed among the intellectual elite. Maybe if we had some Mormon refugees from an ashram in India, or from a Tibetan lamasary in Nepal, we might be able to draw on their experience with monastic discipline for thursday nite meditation sessions. Sitting za zen in Japan. Mormon taekwondo clubs in Seoul, Korea? Tai Chi clubs in Hong Kong and Shanghai? Maybe such things already exist. ETA: I now see that it does exist: pogi provides these instances -- https://www.npr.org/2017/06/17/533327601/in-salt-lake-city-youll-find-mormons-who-meditate https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865684274/What-a-Mormon-doing-Buddhist-meditation-has-to-do-with-the-future-of-faith.html Aha! And I was about to volunteer.... But heck he has the name and the story..... Edited August 21, 2018 by mfbukowski
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