smac97 Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, california boy said: How much power the church has over you is totally up to you. No one else. I quite agree with this. So, for that matter, does the LDS Church. See D&C 134:10: Quote We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship. Yep. Quote I personally don't believe that Christ has given any church power over others. See Matthew 18 (emphases added): Quote 15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. And Matthew 16 (emphases added): Quote 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. And Mark 3: Quote 14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, 15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: And Luke 9: Quote 1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And Luke 10: Quote 1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. And John 15: Quote 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. And Galatians 1: Quote 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)... And Titus 1: Quote 4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee. Ordinations ("He ordained twelve..."), on whom he conferred "power and authority," and whom he sent out "to preach the kingdom of God." Keys of the kingdom. Power to bind and to loose. Adjudicatory authority ("tell it unto the church..."). And authority to ordain elders. And we only know these things because of the writings of . . . prophets and apostles. I think that Jesus Christ vested others with authority to speak and act on his behalf. Quote We look only to Christ for Salvation. No, the church does not save you. Again, I quite agree. The Church has never claimed otherwise. The Church houses authority to administer saving ordinances. The Church proclaims the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ saves us. We, in turn, are commanded to have faith, repent, and receive saving ordinances (such as baptism). We can choose these things, or not. Quote And the church does not dictate your "sealing" with your family. Ultimately, the "sealing" power rests with Jesus Christ. But that authority has been vested in His servants ("whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven..."). Quote Everything comes through and because of Christ. I agree. "Everything" includes authority vested in servants of Jesus Christ. Thanks, -Smac Edited August 13, 2018 by smac97
Robert F. Smith Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 1 hour ago, changed said: ........................ I don't know that evil prevails - that humans have not killed one another off by now, that you can walk down most streets most of the time and not run into trouble... I think most of the people on this earth most of the time are good and decent folks. Faith and hope are all we have for the future, experience and wisdom - what we have from the past - discipline and mindfulness what we have in the present ....................................... In a number of modern countries, one can indeed walk down most streets in the daytime without being molested. Night and the hood are another matter. However, most countries are caught up in the throes of violence and degradation (if not outright murder), and this is most of humanity. Poverty and evil reign supreme on planet Earth. A kind of "devil may care faith" is most unwise, and can get you into trouble quicker than anything. It is not for nothing that Jesus told us to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves. And you saw what they did to Him. Just when you think that everything is hunky-dory, disaster is waiting for you with the jaws that bite hard. God gave us brains, and we need to use them.
changed Posted August 13, 2018 Author Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 59 minutes ago, smac97 said: 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Thanks, -Smac I believe the church is built on personal revelation... not on flesh and blood.... 38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part. The above is a great example - someone who is not "one of us", not following the 12 apostles, but doing good none the less. Jesus essentially tells his own disciplines - no one has to follow you, that is ok if he is not following you - he is on good terms with me, and that is all that is needed. If someone has something kind / wise / uplifting to say, great! As everyone knows, apostles, bishops, presidents - sometimes they have the spirit, and sometimes they do not... so I will reserve the right to take some and leave some, and do not want to rely on any arms of flesh here in this life. Edited August 13, 2018 by changed
changed Posted August 13, 2018 Author Posted August 13, 2018 25 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: In a number of modern countries, one can indeed walk down most streets in the daytime without being molested. Night and the hood are another matter. However, most countries are caught up in the throes of violence and degradation (if not outright murder), and this is most of humanity. Poverty and evil reign supreme on planet Earth. A kind of "devil may care faith" is most unwise, and can get you into trouble quicker than anything. It is not for nothing that Jesus told us to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves. And you saw what they did to Him. Just when you think that everything is hunky-dory, disaster is waiting for you with the jaws that bite hard. God gave us brains, and we need to use them. and one can indeed walk into most LDS church buildings and not be molested - but disaster is waiting for those who put too much trust in the arms of flesh, because people are being molested by high priests in LDS church buildings, and that is just the way it is. Yes, G-d gave us brains, and experiences that destroy our faith in the arms of flesh.
smac97 Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 1 minute ago, changed said: Quote 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Thanks, -Smac I believe the church is built on personal revelation... I believe the LDS Church is built on revelation, too. Revelation involves more than revelation to each of us as individuals. As a father, I believe I am entitled to, and receive, personal revelation pertaining to my children. They are within my stewardship. Conversely, I do not believe that I am entitled to, nor do I claim to receive, personal revelation pertaining to those not within my stewardship. Joseph Smith put it well: Quote “Jesus in His teachings says, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.’ [Matthew 16:18.] What rock? Revelation.” History of the Church, 5:258; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Jan. 22, 1843, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff. The question, then, becomes one of stewardship. Who is situated to receive revelation for "the church" as a whole, as a community? For me, the answer is those who have been "called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof" (AoF 1:5). That makes sense to me. 1 minute ago, changed said: 38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part. The above is a great example - someone who is not "one of us", not following the 12 apostles, but doing good none the less. Jesus essentially tells his own disciplines - no one has to follow you, that is ok if he is not following you - he is on good terms with me, and that is all that is needed. Plenty of good resources on this question: FAIR article Gramps Q&A #1 Gramps Q&A #2 Interpreter article Thanks, -Smac
changed Posted August 13, 2018 Author Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: Just to be clear what I mean - We are all faced with overcoming the world in this life. I am not saying that God creates the evil we are asked to overcome, but I do believe He will help us overcome it, if we rely upon Him. This may just be emotional support or guidance. I don't believe He typically intervenes to remove the evil. We become stronger by learning how to overcome it. I think that is our purpose for being here on this earth. I agree, although I am not sure how He helps us overcome anything... seems like it is up to us. We are also all encouraged to become independent and self-reliant in this life... I am starting to think some of this "be self-sufficient" message is ... to leave the church, not rely on the church... I did not realize how much I was relying on the church until being bit by it. Perhaps some of the final stages of progression do involve leaving the security of having others (prophets, bishops, etc.) tell you what to do.... 2 hours ago, california boy said: How much power the church has over you is totally up to you. No one else. I personally don't believe that Christ has given any church power over others. We look only to Christ for Salvation. No, the church does not save you. And the church does not dictate your "sealing" with your family. Everything comes through and because of Christ. How much power? I cannot go to the temple, cannot be sealed to my ancestors, cannot be considered an active member without: 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? (No, I do not think it has been restored, I think there are many things that are still to be revealed... AoF?) 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? (No... I do not have a testimony in the new prophet - seems like a good guy, but to call him the one and only person on earth? why does anyone think there is only supposed to be one person on earth with this kind of power?? what process did you go through every time a new prophet comes up? Have you gone through this process for every GA - for all local authorities and all the leaders in the church? You have a testimony of the thousands of leaders in the church? and think every last one of them is qualified for their position?... I used to sustain this, just go with the crowd... then realized I had sustained pedophiles in their leadership position... well, no more. I will not sustain anyone I do not know.) ... 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? (I affiliate with Sam Young, and others who have had to fight the church because of abuse) We become stronger by overcoming evil. How is everyone else overcoming the evil in the church? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_abuse_cases and that is NOT a full list. Is it acceptable to overcome this type of evil - in the LDS church and all organizations - by deciding, you know what? I am not going to 100% sustain or support any organization on earth - my kids need to know that they are free to leave, and should feel fine to leave, any situation they feel comfortable in. Not to say community is bad, just needs to be kept in its proper place. Your #1 allegiance is to yourself, your family, your conscience and your own personal religious beliefs - with anything from any organization coming in way down the line. You are not an evil "apostate" for trying to keep yourself safe. Edited August 13, 2018 by changed
changed Posted August 13, 2018 Author Posted August 13, 2018 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Perhaps going back to the beginning and starting there could be helpful. You are referring, I think, to Luke 22: See also Matthew 26: I don't think Jesus "was forced" to atone for our sins. He volunteered for it. See Abraham 3:27: See also here (excerpts from article about "Atonement of Jesus Christ" from The Encyclopedia of Mormonism) : And here (excerpt from article about "Garden of Gethsemane" from The Encyclopedia of Mormonism) : Also consider John 10: Jesus was never forced or compelled to atone for our sins. The voluntary nature of His Atonement is perhaps the singular most beautiful and sobering element of His suffering. I think I understand. For me, the logic makes sense. I don't claim to fully comprehend the Atonement. Its necessity, its function, its scope. But I think I get the gist of it. I can see why this is an attractive concept. Thanks, -Smac Jesus was placed in a bad spot - "not my will but thine be done" - it was NOT Jesus' will. His actions were done through responsibility, through obligation to another, but he did not want it, did not will it - please take this cup from me - he did not want it. It seems horrible on our part to load any more pain and suffering on Jesus. 1 hour ago, CV75 said: No, don’t join a terrorist group. I don’t know Sam Young, or whether you and he are being unjust. I never presumed you hate anyone. From the sounds of this post, however, you are not really listening to a reply that was given only because you asked about a matter of faith. This is how I handle the intersection of God’s presence, horror and injustice, and fallible Church leaders in in my life. Sorry, I was exaggerating to make a point. Thanks for sharing your views. Sam Young is on a hunger strike right now at temple square - Gandhi style - has been in the news etc. He led the protest at the last GC over church PPI's and is the reason the church has changed policy on PPI's. Thanks Tacenda, wish I would "like" your posts. It is scary... I did meet someone a bit ago who had a rather FLDS experience within the mainstream LDS church. FLDS and LDS are not as far apart as many would like to place them. 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Love your message here Changed. https://pickingbooks.com/blog/destroying-their-god
Maidservant Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 23 hours ago, changed said: So I ask you, what is faith? I have come to understand that FAITH is the process of creation. (Faith is NOT a 'mental assent or agreement' or 'sacred guess' to an idea or similar.) Faith is a PROCESS--in fact, THE process that characterizes the way the energies on this earth work--that thereby we may receive the blessing, or more accurately, the HARVEST of something. If we hope for any reality to be our experience--and yet it is not at this time our experience--the journey we take to become who we need to be in order to bear and generate that experience, is faith. Thinking of a garden--if you hope to have a carrot--this is your desire--then you find a carrot seed. Not a strawberry seed. A carrot seed. So far so good. But a seed in hand is not a carrot. You plant the seed in soil. You water. You weed. You feed. You nourish in many ways through much time and patience and stages. The seed does not look anything like the full flower and fruit (harvest), no stage looks like another. And yet it is all connected. The fruit is not the seed, but there would be no fruit without the seed. And, in time, you may enjoy the carrot. Now, it does not mean that things may happen to abort the process--bunnies may eat the sprouts. Drought may come. But also there will be no carrot if you do not at least begin with the planting, and the planting of the correct seed that leads to the desired fruit. (The LAW required of the BLESSING.) Now, in a garden there is some trust and patience, yes. I mean, you don't plant a seed and go later in the afternoon and find the carrot without the time and without doing a thing. You have to pass through and endure the entire process. But the process of faith--while not GUARANTEED (those dang bunnies!) is nevertheless PREDICTABLE (works the same way every time). This is NOT A METAPHOR. This is actually the process of creation and what we may call faith. It works whether it is a vegetable garden, or the human soul/body, and every thing in between, each kingdom its own. FAITH is HOW THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE WORKS ALL THE TIME to produce experience and reality. FAITH and the LAW OF THE HARVEST are the same thing. In terms of the human soul/body, for me, my personal overarching desire is PEACE. Also I have a lot of mini-hopes within that, that I believe constitute my peace and other good things about life, whether earth or eternity (which is the same thing to me, no separation or difference). I do not know what your overarching desire is, so I can't speak to that. But if I want the fruit or harvest of PEACE, I must go through the faith process of peace--I must begin and endure the journey. I must possess the correct seed, or principle(s) of peace. In the case of PEACE, this is a large reality to create, so there will be much process, time, patience, law, nourishment--much ASKED OF ME. Because *I* am the soil, in this instance. I am the garden in which will arise the fruit, or harvest, of peace--if I continue and do not fail, through peace bunny eating, peace storms, peace droughts, peace weeding, et cetera et cetera. Faith is HARD WORK--but it is not hard work for nothing. It is toward the harvest that is in your 'mind's eye' or your 'heart's eye'. When we are asked to have faith in Jesus Christ--if one were to have a desire for this, to choose it--to me, in my understanding, it is to take up the path or journey that is shown in the template of the life of Jesus Christ. No more, no less. It is about becoming a Christ also. It is not about what will come--the storms, etc--it is about the Christ response or living to the storms, etc. (I am sure you are already deep into that process, whether you would call it by the name of Christ or not.) Faith in Christ is the process of becoming (a) Christ. 23 hours ago, changed said: "Why hast though forsaken me?" The life of Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament is a template that shows us the features of the process of becoming (a) Christ. It shows us the process and the path we EACH will pass through--should we choose the path following Christ. The 'Why has thou forsaken me' test or passage is the fulcrum of the descent--the place where the descent turns and becomes the ascent. So this forsaking test/passage/feature/process is no joke. But it is a passage that the serious Christ follower will all come through. Also, (from a slightly different but nevertheless related perspective) it is the place we are all at in earth life--as eternal beings on our eternal journey, the earth life IS our crucifixion and the place where we are 'forsaken'. So again, this is the 'advanced course' (the 'forsaking test'). THERE ISN'T ANYONE ON THE PLANET WHO HASN'T HAD THIS EXPERIENCE. It just depends on how badly you want the harvest of THAT process (which I have not mentioned or named the fruit, but perhaps you can get a glimpse). I know I do. It's like having a baby--oh my gosh, the pregnancy, the labor, the exhaustion of caring for a newborn, et cetera et cetera--but for many of us, all of this sacrifice and process is worth the BABY. The very hardest thing is also the most beautiful and most sacred thing. That's the same thing as we go through the process of Becoming in this earth life and in the eternities--the BABY, the HARVEST--is ourselves. Like Po finding out the meaning of the Dragon Scroll in KungFu Panda ("It's okay. I didn't get it at first," Po says to Tai Lung. Tai Lung was furious because the only prize was himself. But it brought Po relief and wonder.) The prize, the judgment, is being who we are. The harvest, the heaven is being who we are. All we get is ourselves. And each other. 1
smac97 Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 Just now, changed said: We are also all encouraged to become independent and self-reliant in this life... I am starting to think some of this "be self-sufficient" message is ... to leave the church, not rely on the church... To some extent, yes, self-reliance means to not "rely on the Church" too much. Such over-reliance can manifest itself in many ways. People who limit their study of the Gospel to what they learn during the three-hour block and seminary are relying on the Church in an unhealthy and inappropriate way. People who live beyond their means, or fail to lift themselves up financially despite the opportunity to do so, and who then chronically ask for financial or other assistance from the Church are relying on it in an unhealthy and inappropriate way. People who fail to fast and pray and attend the temple and seek out personal revelation for themselves and their loved ones and endeavors, who don't heed the counsel of 2 Nephi 2:26 ("And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon...") may end up relying on the Church in an unhealthy and inappropriate way. People who fail to follow the counsel, and heed the warning, in D&C 58 may end up relying on the Church in an unhealthy and inappropriate way: Quote 26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. 27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness; 28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward. 29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned. Joseph Smith said: Quote “President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish Church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall – that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...” - The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 237-238 And this from Brigham Young: Quote “What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blink self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 9, p. 150 And this: Quote “How easy it would be for your leaders to lead you to destruction, unless you actually know the mind and will of the spirit yourselves.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 3, p. 45 And this: Quote “Do not, brethren, put your trust in a man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone...” - Apostle George Q. Cannon, Millennial Star, v. 53, pp. 658-659, as quoted in Gospel Truth, v. 1, p. 319 Elder Faust gave an excellent talk on this matter in the October 1989 Genderal Conference: Continuous Revelation. He also gave an excellent message in the September 1998 First Presidency Message: “The Truth Shall Make You Free” I don't think we can (or are supposed to) leave the Church behind. It was founded for our benefit. It houses and administers saving ordinances. It is led by prophets and apostles. It gives us opportunities to strengthen and serve each other. It is not perfect, but it is good. The Latter-day Saints are my people. We are not perfect by any measure, but we are working hard and are doing good things. They, and the message of the Restored Gospel they imperfectly carry to the world, deserve some real allegiance. So they have it from me. Just now, changed said: I did not realize how much I was relying on the church until being bit by it. Perhaps some of the final stages of progression do involve leaving the security of having others (prophets, bishops, etc.) tell you what to do.... Within their spheres of authority, yes. Consider all the ways that leaders in the LDS Church abstain from "tell[ing] you what to do." The Church offers guidance on some, but far from all, things. Just now, changed said: How much power? I cannot go to the temple, cannot be sealed to my ancestors, cannot be considered an active member without: 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? (No, I do not think it has been restored, I think there are many things that are still to be revealed... AoF?) 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? (No... I do not have a testimony in the new prophet - seems like a good guy, but to call him the one and only person on earth? why does anyone think there is only supposed to be one person on earth with this kind of power?? what process did you go through every time a new prophet comes up? Have you gone through this process for every GA - for all local authorities and all the leaders in the church? You have a testimony of the thousands of leaders in the church? and think every last one of them is qualified for their position?... I used to sustain this, just go with the crowd... then realized I had sustained pedophiles in their leadership position... well, no more. I will not sustain anyone I do not know.) ... 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? (I affiliate with Sam Young, and others who have had to fight the church because of abuse) Yours are some interesting questions. Probably a bit much to go over here (in any event, they might be better addressed in a situation better than this message board). Just now, changed said: We become stronger by overcoming evil. How is everyone else overcoming the evil in the church? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_abuse_cases and that is NOT a full list. Alas, there are some who choose to disobey the teachings of the Church. Who betray the Church and its members through misconduct. Who abuse the trust they are given. If you are looking for a community of perfect people, you will not find it in the LDS Church. "And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5:31-32) Does the Church teach or condone or tolerate the abuses you mention? No. The Church disciplines members who do such things. Just now, changed said: Is it acceptable to overcome this type of evil - in the LDS church and all organizations - by deciding, you know what? I am not going to 100% sustain or support any organization on earth - my kids need to know that they are free to leave, and should feel fine to leave, any situation they feel comfortable in. I agree your children should feel this way. Just now, changed said: Not to say community is bad, just needs to be kept in its proper place. Your #1 allegiance is to yourself, your family, your conscience and your own personal religious beliefs - with anything from any organization coming in way down the line. For me, my "#1 allegiance" is, I hope, to God. As for how to address the sins of my fellow saints, I rely principally on three scriptures: Mormon 9:31 - "Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been." D&C 64:10 - "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." Matthew 7:2 - "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Plus a fourth: Matthew 10:16 - "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." I seek forgiveness, and hence must measure it out. Over and over again ('harmless as doves"), though not in such a way as to facilitate harm to come to me or to innocents, though ("wise as serpents"). Just now, changed said: You are not an evil "apostate" for trying to keep yourself safe. I think it's quite possible to do the things you speak of and not descend into apostasy. Thanks, -Smac
smac97 Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 29 minutes ago, changed said: Jesus was placed in a bad spot - "not my will but thine be done" - it was NOT Jesus' will. Jesus volunteered. That's a central feature of LDS belief on this matter. His "will" in the moment of the utter-most agony - pain that we cannot even begin to comprehend - was to have the pain stop. Consider D&C 19: Quote 15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; 18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink— 19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. He wanted the pain to stop. But he nevertheless continued to submit to the will of God. 29 minutes ago, changed said: His actions were done through responsibility, through obligation to another, but he did not want it, did not will it - please take this cup from me - he did not want it. His actions were done through love. He voluntarily did what he did. "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:15) "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." (1Jn 3:16) From Elder Holland (emphasis added):: Quote The need for this Fall and for an atonement to compensate for it was explained in a premortal Council in Heaven at which the spirits of the entire human family attended and over which God the Father presided. It was in this premortal setting that Christ volunteered to honor the moral agency of all humankind even as He atoned for their sins. In the process, He would return to the Father all glory for such redemptive love.5 This infinite Atonement of Christ was possible because (1) He was the only sinless man ever to live on this earth and therefore was not subject to the spiritual death resulting from sin, (2) He was the Only Begotten of the Father and therefore possessed the attributes of godhood that gave Him power over physical death,6 and (3) He was apparently the only one sufficiently humble and willing in the premortal council to be foreordained to that service.7 --- 5. See Revelation 13:8; Moses 4:1–2; Abraham 3:22–27. 6. See John 5:26–29; 2 Nephi 9:5–12; Alma 34:9–14. 7. See James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 3rd ed. (1916), 21–22. From then-Elder Nelson: Quote The purposes of the Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement all converge on the sacred work done in temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The earth was created and the Church was restored to make possible the sealing of wife to husband, children to parents, families to progenitors, worlds without end. This is the great latter-day work of which we are a part. That is why we have missionaries; that is why we have temples—to bring the fullest blessings of the Atonement to faithful children of God. That is why we respond to our own calls from the Lord. When we comprehend His voluntary Atonement, any sense of sacrifice on our part becomes completely overshadowed by a profound sense of gratitude for the privilege of serving Him. I could understand repugnance at the notion of Jesus being an involuntary sacrifice. But that's not what we believe. 29 minutes ago, changed said: It seems horrible on our part to load any more pain and suffering on Jesus. Indeed. Hence the need for faith. And obedience arising from that faith. And repentance when we fail to obey. Thanks, -Smac 4
pogi Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) On 8/12/2018 at 12:09 PM, bluebell said: Speaking for myself, I've noticed that the hardest time for me to have faith is when it seems like God did not stop something bad from happening to me or my family. When I thought about that, it helped me to see that my idea of what faith is and what it actually is was not the same thing. I was (and still very much sometimes still am) operating as if faith was the power that was going to protect me and my loved ones from suffering. Faith was my insurance policy. Something bad is headed my way + apply faith = bad thing averted. I understood in theory that bad things were a part of life, but in application i was behaving as if trying to obey God and do what He asked of me was my payment/guarantee for a life free of serious trials. A few trials were o.k. but obviously nothing really hard or really painful. Now I understand better (ironically because of trials) that faith is trust in God, whatever comes. Faith is believing that God is real and loves me, not only when bad things are happening to other people, but also when they happen to me. There are still days when i seriously struggle with it. I agree with this completely. Faith does not guarantee a life without trials. But faith has been demonstrated to help people to cope healthily with difficult trials such as death and loss, even physical pain. I witnessed this too many times to count as a hospice nurse, and I have witnessed it first hand in my own life in coping with loss, addiction, and other trials. Faith has demonstrated itself to be a steady and sure anchor that I can rely on when the rest of my life feels out of control. On 8/12/2018 at 11:12 AM, changed said: One generic answer to any question, and the saving grace for any soul - is "just have faith". I no longer have faith, and the entire subject of faith now confuses me. My actions and beliefs are the result of experience, background, observations, reasonable expectations. People go through traumatic life events with and without faith in G-d, and the results are about the same. I used to have "faith", it was a nice comforting idea - then I did not receive any real support from anyone inside the church, did not receive support from G-d, no guidance from the Holy Spirit to protect me or my children - I tried the experiment - I read the scriptures every day, I attended the temple, I gave up my career because I was supposed to be a stay-at-home mom, I did everything I was supposed to do, and I was cursed for it, my children were abused for it. I experimented on the words, and the result of the experiment was - no support, no help - no guidance - no protection - I gave myself away, I gave an I gave and I gave, and got nothing back in return for it, was actually harmed by it... Hi changed. I agree with you, faith is "comforting"- to me, that is "real support" from God. I would not entirely dismiss the idea that faith gives guidance and protection from spiritual and potentially even physical harm. Your faithful choices put your life on a trajectory that was probably different then you would have otherwise chosen. How can you be certain that your life has not been improved, if not saved, from those choices? We cannot really know for sure, but one cannot say for certain that it has NOT helped either. One cannot know what might have been, but I feel confident that faith has protected my life and greatly enhanced it. My faith was a large part of my decision to not use drugs. All my friends (and I mean ALL of them) started experimenting young. I just found two days ago that one of my best friends in high school died from an opioid overdose. Others have struggled with alcohol, cigarette, and opioid addiction. I know that with my addictive tendencies, my faith helped me to avoid a nightmare. My faith helped me avoid chemical addiction and has been the cornerstone to my recover from porn addiction. That is just something to think about. Faith is not intended to be a preventative measure for all suffering, but it very well may prevent some, and it for sure can help us to cope through others. The highs seem to be higher for me with faith, and the lows seem to be aided by the perspective of faith. It has been a comforting blanket in my darkest hour. Edited August 13, 2018 by pogi 2
pogi Posted August 13, 2018 Posted August 13, 2018 10 hours ago, Meerkat said: Attitude makes a difference. Easier said than done. Here's an interesting Youtube with some insights by Victor Frankl, author of Man's Search for Meaning.": Thanks for the video clip. What an inspiration he is! I jotted down a couple quotes from it that I really liked: Quote Everybody, in the midst of suffering is given a chance to bear testimony of the human potential at its best, which is to turn a personal tragedy into a human triumph. Quote Suffering has a meaning only in the (unintelligible) condition, that you cannot remove the cause of suffering...What counts and matters then, is the attitude you adopt to an unchangeable fate, to an unchangeable situation... The priority goes to actively changing a situation that has caused suffering, but superiority goes to the attitude that you heroically adopt when you cannot change a situation.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 On 8/13/2018 at 11:11 AM, changed said: and one can indeed walk into most LDS church buildings and not be molested - but disaster is waiting for those who put too much trust in the arms of flesh, because people are being molested by high priests in LDS church buildings, and that is just the way it is. Yes, G-d gave us brains, and experiences that destroy our faith in the arms of flesh. That doesn't jibe with what you said before. What is the percentage rate of HPs molesting Mormons? I'll wager that the rate is quite small -- particularly in comparison with the systematic child rape system in the RC Church in Pennsylvania, where a thousand kids were raped by over 300 priests and it was covered up by their bosses (bishops and archbishops). https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-pennsylvania.html .
The Nehor Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 On 8/12/2018 at 1:09 PM, bluebell said: Speaking for myself, I've noticed that the hardest time for me to have faith is when it seems like God did not stop something bad from happening to me or my family. When I thought about that, it helped me to see that my idea of what faith is and what it actually is was not the same thing. I was (and still very much sometimes still am) operating as if faith was the power that was going to protect me and my loved ones from suffering. Faith was my insurance policy. Something bad is headed my way + apply faith = bad thing averted. I understood in theory that bad things were a part of life, but in application i was behaving as if trying to obey God and do what He asked of me was my payment/guarantee for a life free of serious trials. A few trials were o.k. but obviously nothing really hard or really painful. Now I understand better (ironically because of trials) that faith is trust in God, whatever comes. Faith is believing that God is real and loves me, not only when bad things are happening to other people, but also when they happen to me. There are still days when i seriously struggle with it. I try to take horrible things happening to me as a compliment that God thinks I can handle them. It does not always work. When I can't handle them I then get even more confused. Of course on my weakest days sometimes the commute home taking an extra 30 minutes counts as a horrible thing happening that God should never have allowed so my measuring stick is sometimes off too. 1
bluebell Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 15 hours ago, The Nehor said: I try to take horrible things happening to me as a compliment that God thinks I can handle them. It does not always work. When I can't handle them I then get even more confused. Of course on my weakest days sometimes the commute home taking an extra 30 minutes counts as a horrible thing happening that God should never have allowed so my measuring stick is sometimes off too. I've said more than once that if your spiritual promptings or experiences always agree with your own wants and desires, then that's a big red flag. The chances that the God of the universe, who's all knowing and also perfectly just and loving, and you, who is very flawed and knows practically nothing in comparison, are going to agree 100% of the time are zero. 2
The Nehor Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 52 minutes ago, bluebell said: I've said more than once that if your spiritual promptings or experiences always agree with your own wants and desires, then that's a big red flag. The chances that the God of the universe, who's all knowing and also perfectly just and loving, and you, who is very flawed and knows practically nothing in comparison, are going to agree 100% of the time are zero. Or, as it has been put elsewhere, if you believe that God likes and dislikes who and what you like that is a good indicator you are creating a god in your own image. 1
changed Posted August 17, 2018 Author Posted August 17, 2018 On 8/14/2018 at 10:09 PM, Robert F. Smith said: That doesn't jibe with what you said before. What is the percentage rate of HPs molesting Mormons? I'll wager that the rate is quite small -- particularly in comparison with the systematic child rape system in the RC Church in Pennsylvania, where a thousand kids were raped by over 300 priests and it was covered up by their bosses (bishops and archbishops). https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-pennsylvania.html . I assume it is similar to the rate in the general population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_abuse_cases http://protectldschildren.org/?s=5 hundreds of accounts of abuse.
changed Posted August 17, 2018 Author Posted August 17, 2018 On 8/14/2018 at 11:43 PM, The Nehor said: I try to take horrible things happening to me as a compliment that God thinks I can handle them. It does not always work. When I can't handle them I then get even more confused. Of course on my weakest days sometimes the commute home taking an extra 30 minutes counts as a horrible thing happening that God should never have allowed so my measuring stick is sometimes off too. That is the problem with faith. Experiment on the words, test it out - and the result is supposed to be what again? Any outcome - good or bad - can be rationalized and justified. Usually if actions produce bad results reasonable people change their actions (you think some vitamin is supposed to help you - but then you find yourself having more health problems etc. any reasonable person would stop taking that vitamin.) but in the LDS tradition - if prayer, reading scriptures, going to the temple, paying tithing, following the word of wisdom - all thing I did and other did etc. if it produces bad consequences (health issues, abuse in the church issues, not protected, finances not working out etc. etc.) ... and then when you stop paying tithing and step back from the church and everything turns up roses (easily pay the house off, suddenly become debt free, get the great job, health improves etc. etc.).... then what does that experiment tell you? but then actions are supposed to be based off of "faith" not "cause and effect" or reasonable actions based on experimenting on what works and what does not work in life... If the Mormon experiment did not work? then people call you apostate and tell you that you are damned... that you should deny the results of the experiment? what is faith? going against logic? going against the results of the experiment?
The Nehor Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 29 minutes ago, changed said: That is the problem with faith. Experiment on the words, test it out - and the result is supposed to be what again? Any outcome - good or bad - can be rationalized and justified. Usually if actions produce bad results reasonable people change their actions (you think some vitamin is supposed to help you - but then you find yourself having more health problems etc. any reasonable person would stop taking that vitamin.) but in the LDS tradition - if prayer, reading scriptures, going to the temple, paying tithing, following the word of wisdom - all thing I did and other did etc. if it produces bad consequences (health issues, abuse in the church issues, not protected, finances not working out etc. etc.) ... and then when you stop paying tithing and step back from the church and everything turns up roses (easily pay the house off, suddenly become debt free, get the great job, health improves etc. etc.).... then what does that experiment tell you? but then actions are supposed to be based off of "faith" not "cause and effect" or reasonable actions based on experimenting on what works and what does not work in life... If the Mormon experiment did not work? then people call you apostate and tell you that you are damned... that you should deny the results of the experiment? what is faith? going against logic? going against the results of the experiment? My faith comes from experiencing divine experiences and not from working out whether there is a God based on what happens to me. My difficulties stem more from being annoyed at God over the good/bad ratio of my life. So not sure how this applies. Your personal mileage may vary.
Kevin Christensen Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) This is one of my favorite quotes on faith: Quote If faith were simply the acceptance of revealed propositions or assent to propositions, it would be incompatible with doubt. But if faith means trust and commitment, it is compatible with considerable doubt about particular interpretations. Faith does not automatically turn uncertainties into certainties. What it does is take us beyond the detached speculative outlook which prevents the most significant sorts of experience; it enables us to live and act amid the uncertainties of life without pretensions of intellectual or moral infallibility. (Ian Barbour, Myths, Models, and Paradigms, 136) And this, from the same book, part of the same discussion: Quote Participation in a religious tradition also demands a more total personal involvement than occurs in science. Religious questions are of ultimate concern, since the meaning of one’s existence is at stake. Religion asks about the final objects of a person’s devotion and loyalty, for which he will sacrifice other interests if necessary. Too detached an attitude may cut a person off from the very kinds of experience which are religiously most significant. Reorientation and reconciliation are transformations of life-pattern affecting all aspects of personality, not intellect alone. Religious writings use the language of actors, not the language of spectators. Religious commitment, then, is a self-involving personal response, a serious decision implicating one’s whole life, a willingness to act and suffer for what one believes in. (Barbour, 135-136) The business of a willingness to "sacrifice other interests if necessary" turns out to be essential. It why Joseph Campbell observes that ancient temples had two threshold guardians, one representing Fear (orthodox thought, tradition, preconception) and Desire. To enter the Real, we have to be willing to pass them, to offer, what Jesus states in 3 Nephi is the sacrifice of a "broken heart" (desires) and a "contrite spirit" ( our preconceptions). It is also the temptation of the Buddha, by Maya, the God of Illusions, trying to distract him with Fear and Desire. In studying over 70 Biblical accounts of people rejecting Biblical prophets, I eventually noticed that they all boil down to fear and desire. "It is a hard saying? Who can hear it?" "Can anything good come from Nazareth?" "And the young man had many possessions and turned away." "Great is Diana of the Ephesians!" cry the patriotic silversmith's whose living was threatened by Paul. Poor soil for the word, not enough time and patience, choking weeds, predation, a failure to carry out the experiment and nurture the word long enough to encounter the stirring and growth into "the kinds of experience that are religiously most significant." It also turns out that the Bible recommendations for seeing truth amount to instructions for offering up our fears and and desires as potential sacrifices in order to see what is Real. M. Scott Peck famously said that "Sanity is commitment to reality at all costs." And the toughest costs are our fears and desires, and the inescapable reality that faith requires faith because by definition it falls short of absolute, final, once and for all knowing. One of the ironies I noticed in reviewing Deconstructing Mormonism involved the author's insistence that faith commitments should be guaranteed by a God who provides once and for all absolute certainty before asking for our worship and sacrifice. He could not have faith in a God who did not provide absolute certainty before asking for any kind of commitment, and fails to see the irony, even in his absolute certainty in his lack of faith. In contrast, Alma 32 gets everything exactly right. It describes a process, starting with a mere portion, an experiment, a nurturing, an unfolding, an ongoing process in which a person proceeds not based on absolute knowing, but a growing "cause to believe" that always falls short of absolute proof. For me, at this stage of life, there is so much that I know and have experienced that I value that I would not have known, had I bailed at the first crisis or difficulty, whether intellectually, socially, or behaviorally. It is that kind of experience that gives me faith to deal with open questions and ongoing challenges. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA Edited August 17, 2018 by Kevin Christensen 3
mfbukowski Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said: This is one of my favorite quotes on faith: And this, from the same book, part of the same discussion: The business of a willingness to "sacrifice other interests if necessary" turns out to be essential. It why Joseph Campbell observes that ancient temples had two threshold guardians, one representing Fear (orthodox thought, tradition, preconception) and Desire. To enter the Real, we have to be willing to pass them, to offer, what Jesus states in 3 Nephi is the sacrifice of a "broken heart" (desires) and a "contrite spirit" ( our preconceptions). It is also the temptation of the Buddha, by Maya, the God of Illusions, trying to distract him with Fear and Desire. In studying over 70 Biblical accounts of people rejecting Biblical prophets, I eventually noticed that they all boil down to fear and desire. "It is a hard saying? Who can hear it?" "Can anything good come from Nazareth?" "And the young man had many possessions and turned away." "Great is Diana of the Ephesians!" cry the patriotic silversmith's whose living was threatened by Paul. Poor soil for the word, not enough time and patience, choking weeds, predation, a failure to carry out the experiment and nurture the word long enough to encounter the stirring and growth into "the kinds of experience that are religiously most significant. It also turns out that the Bible recommendations for seeing truth amount to instructions for offering up our fears and and desires as potential sacrifices in order to see what is Real. M. Scott Peck famously said that "Sanity is commitment to reality at all costs." And the toughest costs are our fears and desires, and the inescapable reality that faith requires faith because by definition it falls short of absolute, final, once and for all knowing. One of the ironies I noticed in reviewing Deconstructing Mormonism involved the author's insistence that faith commitments should be guaranteed by a God who provides once and for all absolute certainty before asking for our worship and sacrifice. He could not have faith in a God who did not provide absolute certainty before asking for any kind of commitment, and fails to see the irony, even in his absolute certainty in his lack of faith. In contrast, Alma 32 gets everything exactly right. It describes a process, starting with a mere portion, an experiment, a nurturing, an unfolding, an ongoing process in which a person proceeds not based on absolute knowing, but a growing "cause to believe" that always falls short of absolute proof. For me, at this stage of life, there is so much that I know and have experienced that I value that I would not have known, had I bailed at the first crisis or difficulty, whether intellectually, socially, or behaviorally. It is that kind of experience that gives me faith to deal with open questions and ongoing challenges. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA Thanks.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 2 hours ago, changed said: I assume it is similar to the rate in the general population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_abuse_cases http://protectldschildren.org/?s=5 hundreds of accounts of abuse. The problem with the "general population" is that it is variegated (nonuniform) and subject to all manner of distinguishing characteristics based on diverse cultural and religious practices. For example, in the very insular and paranoid extreme ultra-orthodox Jewish communities it has been nearly impossible to get victims to rat molesters out to secular authorities, with some perpetrators and entire clans fleeing to other countries to avoid investigation and prosecution. In one case which has gone on for years, a middle aged female molester fled from Australia to Israel, where legal authorities have finally arrested her, but are equivocating on whether to extradite her. Most communities are not so secretive and insular. The problem of very powerful hierarchies participating in and actively covering up rape and molestation on a massive scale in the recent RC Pennsylvania case (there are plenty of others) may represent a rate very different from your typical Methodist or Presbyterian rate. Just using hysteria as the primary basis for an assumed rate is irresponsible.
Avatar4321 Posted August 18, 2018 Posted August 18, 2018 I can't answer specifically why you've experienced certain things. But I know from my own experience that faith gives one thing that is impossible without it: hope. My daughter is a type 1 diabetic. Dealing with that life is a struggle. Without hope in Christ, I doubt my family would still be together. But it's more than just us. we are involved in a T1 group of local families. We've also been reaching out to try to minister to families that are struggling. There is a difference between believers and non believers. One family is hard core atheist. The mother has no hope. She is constantly struggling and as she goes the family goes. A child in my sister in laws church was diagnosed and we reached out to them. The mother had a strong faith. The first months are always the worst and yet she was full of incredible hope. perhaps you don't need a testimony of specific doctrines the Church teaches, but one for hope. Have you asked the Lord for hope in Him?
mfbukowski Posted August 18, 2018 Posted August 18, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: I can't answer specifically why you've experienced certain things. But I know from my own experience that faith gives one thing that is impossible without it: hope. My daughter is a type 1 diabetic. Dealing with that life is a struggle. Without hope in Christ, I doubt my family would still be together. But it's more than just us. we are involved in a T1 group of local families. We've also been reaching out to try to minister to families that are struggling. There is a difference between believers and non believers. One family is hard core atheist. The mother has no hope. She is constantly struggling and as she goes the family goes. A child in my sister in laws church was diagnosed and we reached out to them. The mother had a strong faith. The first months are always the worst and yet she was full of incredible hope. perhaps you don't need a testimony of specific doctrines the Church teaches, but one for hope. Have you asked the Lord for hope in Him? I have a close relative who has Type 1, since age 2 and she is now 65 years old, she is still quite active and helps others who have type 1 and is faithfully LDS I am sure she would like to help in any way. PM me if that sounds helpful to you. She lives in the SLC area. Edited August 18, 2018 by mfbukowski
blueglass Posted August 18, 2018 Posted August 18, 2018 On 8/13/2018 at 11:39 AM, smac97 said: the evidence [the demonstration or proof] of things not seen If it is evidence of things not seen, if we see the natural signature on an fMRI machine, what are we looking at?
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