Faith?

[changed]

 

One generic answer to any question, and the saving grace for any soul - is "just have faith".  

I no longer have faith, and the entire subject of faith now confuses me. My actions and beliefs are the result of experience, background, observations, reasonable expectations.  People go through traumatic life events with and without faith in G-d, and the results are about the same.  

I used to have "faith", it was a nice comforting idea - then I did not receive any real support from anyone inside the church, did not receive support from G-d, no guidance from the Holy Spirit to protect me or my children - I tried the experiment - I read the scriptures every day, I attended the temple, I gave up my career because I was supposed to be a stay-at-home mom, I did everything I was supposed to do, and I was cursed for it, my children were abused for it.  I experimented on the words, and the result of the experiment was - no support, no help - no guidance - no protection - I gave myself away, I gave an I gave and I gave, and got nothing back in return for it, was actually harmed by it... 

Faith??  I am supposed to have faith??  

So I ask you, what is faith?

[RevTestament]

25 minutes ago, changed said:

 

One generic answer to any question, and the saving grace for any soul - is "just have faith".  

I no longer have faith, and the entire subject of faith now confuses me. My actions and beliefs are the result of experience, background, observations, reasonable expectations.  People go through traumatic life events with and without faith in G-d, and the results are about the same.  

I used to have "faith", it was a nice comforting idea - then I did not receive any real support from anyone inside the church, did not receive support from G-d, no guidance from the Holy Spirit to protect me or my children - I tried the experiment - I read the scriptures every day, I attended the temple, I gave up my career because I was supposed to be a stay-at-home mom, I did everything I was supposed to do, and I was cursed for it, my children were abused for it.  I experimented on the words, and the result of the experiment was - no support, no help - no guidance - no protection - I gave myself away, I gave an I gave and I gave, and got nothing back in return for it, was actually harmed by it... 

Faith??  I am supposed to have faith??  

So I ask you, what is faith?

I can understand your pain Changed. I believe faith is different things to different people. My faith is based upon knowledge and experience. I have experienced the stirrings of the Spirit. I have heard the voice of the Lord as I read scripture. I have felt His love. I have also known the faults of people - a member who lied to me, so he could get information to report me, etc. My wife has also been emotionally harmed by members of the Church, including her own family. Yet, she has healed, and returned to the restored gospel. When we love, we expose ourselves to being hurt. This is true in every aspect of life - including Church life. Members sin - they lie and steal. They abuse others. It doesn't mean the restored gospel is not true. It just means members are human. I don't put faith in the Church or members of the Church. I have faith in the Lord and the restored gospel. Hopefully, you did not give up your career for the Church, but for your family. My wife stayed home and raised our three boys. We were poorer, but I believe our family was blessed with happiness and love. Now that they are grown she is working as a teacher, but I don't think she considers herself anymore blessed. In fact I think part of her longs for the days when she was home with her family. She doesn't think she was harmed by that time. I too consider it the happiest time of my life. Despite my misgivings about Church members at times, I have faith in the restored gospel to lead me in the right direction for my eternal happiness. People are people whether they are within or without a Church. I sincerely hope you can understand what I am saying here. May God bless you.

[changed]

13 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

... I have faith in the Lord and the restored gospel. ....

What gives you faith in a higher power?  Spiritual experiences I suppose.

I have felt the spirit, although now that I am analyzing those experiences none of them testified of anything that was Mormon (never felt good about someone being a prophet, or any particular book of scripture being right) ... just that birth was not our beginning, and death was not our end.  The one time I heard a voice it was not really a comforting voice - just told me I would be able to make it through my degree.  I am working again, full time - over-time actually... 

I had good feelings when life was going well - when things were turned upside down, all those good feeling disappeared though.  Nothing.  Nadda.  No support from the spirit.  "Why hast though forsaken me?"  ... there was a debate at my grandmother's nursing home over that one - why did G-d forsake his perfect son during the height of his pain?  Some old people said it was because Jesus was not really perfect, others said it was because G-d is not really a loving or a supporting person... Why do you suppose that was - why do you think G-d forsook Jesus?  

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by changed

[bluebell]

Speaking for myself, I've noticed that the hardest time for me to have faith is when it seems like God did not stop something bad from happening to me or my family.  When I thought about that, it helped me to see that my idea of what faith is and what it actually is was not the same thing.

I was (and still very much sometimes still am) operating as if faith was the power that was going to protect me and my loved ones from suffering.  Faith was my insurance policy.  Something bad is headed my way + apply faith = bad thing averted.  I understood in theory that bad things were a part of life, but in application i was behaving as if trying to obey God and do what He asked of me was my payment/guarantee for a life free of serious trials.  A few trials were o.k. but obviously nothing really hard or really painful.

Now I understand better (ironically because of trials) that faith is trust in God, whatever comes.  Faith is believing that God is real and loves me, not only when bad things are happening to other people, but also when they happen to me.  There are still days when i seriously struggle with it.  

 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, changed said:

I had good feelings when life was going well - when things were turned upside down, all those good feeling disappeared though.  Nothing.  Nadda.  No support from the spirit.  "Why hast though forsaken me?"  ... there was a debate at my grandmother's nursing home over that one - why did G-d forsake his perfect son during the height of his pain?  Some old people said it was because Jesus was not really perfect, others said it was because G-d is not really a loving or a supporting person... Why do you suppose that was - why do you think G-d forsook Jesus?  

 

I think it's so that Jesus could understand how we feel when our choices cause God to forsake us.  I think it's so that there is nothing that any of us will ever go through that Jesus did not experience, including the absence of God's spirit.

[RevTestament]

2 minutes ago, changed said:

What gives you faith in a higher power?  Spiritual experiences I suppose.

I have felt the spirit, although now that I am analyzing those experiences none of them testified of anything that was Mormon (never felt good about someone being a prophet, or any particular book of scripture being right) ... just that birth was not our beginning, and death was not our end.  The one time I heard a voice it was not really a comforting voice - just told me I would be able to make it through my degree.  I am working again, full time - over-time actually... 

I had good feelings when life was going well - when things were turned upside down, all those good feeling disappeared though.  Nothing.  Nadda.  No support from the spirit.  "Why hast though forsaken me?"  ... there was a debate at my grandmother's nursing home over that one - why did G-d forsake his perfect son during the height of his pain?  Some old people said it was because Jesus was not really perfect, others said it was because G-d is not really a loving a supporting person... Why do you suppose that was - why do you think G-d forsook Jesus?  

Because it was necessary for Yeshua to do this on His own. It is part of His experience of becoming the Father to know what the Father has been through, and to go beneath all. 

John 16:25

25 These things have I spoken unto you in ^aproverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Now, I am probably somewhat unique in my interpretation of the scriptures, and I acknowledge this is not taught in the modern Church, but I will also refer you to the King Follett discourse of Joseph Smith who said that Jesus laid down His life even as He had seen the Father do.

Just because Church members have done bad things doesn't mean that your Savior has forsaken you Changed. He still loves you, and wishes you to know of HIm. He cannot force Church members to be perfect, and cause no harm. To understand this is part of our own growth in the gospel. Remember that to be forgiven, we too must also forgive. I know that sometimes is hard to do when we are wounded deeply, but it is part of following Him who forgives all who come to Him if we will be like Him.

[changed]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Remember that to be forgiven, we too must also forgive.

 

I have forgiven the abuser - he was afflicted with the disease as a very young child, I can put my anger in the disease.  I do not trust the church - not to say that I do not "forgive" the church, I just do not see that it is led by the spirit any more.  I do not think the spirit would put someone with that condition into leadership positions for so many years (18+ years of abuse) so I just chalk it up to the church not being led by G-d.

I am not angry at any person, I give them the excuse of just being people - nothing more, nothing less.  I have not personally been able to help anyone overtly much - dinners etc. are just bandaids and do not really help anyone with anything real.  I cannot help others, and do not expect others to help me.

G-d is not supposed to just be a person though.  G-d's job apparently is not to protect anyone, is not to help anyone in any way - so I am not sure what that is.  Is that what love is?  If you love something let it go?  So I am supposed to embrace some kind of twisted definition of love through this?  

He was convicted last week... will be in jail for life, no parole thanks to "Jessica's Law".  

Edited August 12, 2018 by changed

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, changed said:

 

I have forgiven the abuser - he was afflicted with the disease as a very young child, I can put my anger in the disease.  I do not trust the church - not to say that I do not "forgive" the church, I just do not see that it is led by the spirit any more.  I do not think the spirit would put someone with that condition into leadership positions for so many years (18+ years of abuse) so I just chalk it up to the church not being led by G-d.

I am not angry at any person, I give them the excuse of just being people - nothing more, nothing less.  I have not personally been able to help anyone overtly much - dinners etc. are just bandaids and do not really help anyone with anything real.  I cannot help others, and do not expect others to help me.

G-d is not supposed to just be a person though.  G-d's job apparently is not to protect anyone, is not to help anyone in any way - so I am not sure what that is.  Is that what love is?  If you love something let it go?  So I am supposed to embrace some kind of twisted definition of love through this?  

He was convicted last week... will be in jail for life, no parole thanks to "Jessica's Law".  

Maybe your attitude about the church leadership or church is more helpful than believing they or the church is guided by God, because imagine the stress or cog dis of thinking that God would allow this to happen or that God put these men in at the expense of your family/child. Much better on your heart, IMO. 

[california boy]

39 minutes ago, changed said:

 

I have forgiven the abuser - he was afflicted with the disease as a very young child, I can put my anger in the disease.  I do not trust the church - not to say that I do not "forgive" the church, I just do not see that it is led by the spirit any more.  I do not think the spirit would put someone with that condition into leadership positions for so many years (18+ years of abuse) so I just chalk it up to the church not being led by G-d.

I am not angry at any person, I give them the excuse of just being people - nothing more, nothing less.  I have not personally been able to help anyone overtly much - dinners etc. are just bandaids and do not really help anyone with anything real.  I cannot help others, and do not expect others to help me.

G-d is not supposed to just be a person though.  G-d's job apparently is not to protect anyone, is not to help anyone in any way - so I am not sure what that is.  Is that what love is?  If you love something let it go?  So I am supposed to embrace some kind of twisted definition of love through this?  

He was convicted last week... will be in jail for life, no parole thanks to "Jessica's Law".  

I too lost trust in church leaders.  But trust in the church and it's claims has nothing to do with faith in Christ.  Maybe we go through these experiences to learn to place our trust in God rather than a church.  For me they are two completely different things.  The church does not save you, nor does it offer you Salvation.  That only comes through Christ.  

[CV75]

6 hours ago, changed said:

 

One generic answer to any question, and the saving grace for any soul - is "just have faith".  

I no longer have faith, and the entire subject of faith now confuses me. My actions and beliefs are the result of experience, background, observations, reasonable expectations.  People go through traumatic life events with and without faith in G-d, and the results are about the same.  

I used to have "faith", it was a nice comforting idea - then I did not receive any real support from anyone inside the church, did not receive support from G-d, no guidance from the Holy Spirit to protect me or my children - I tried the experiment - I read the scriptures every day, I attended the temple, I gave up my career because I was supposed to be a stay-at-home mom, I did everything I was supposed to do, and I was cursed for it, my children were abused for it.  I experimented on the words, and the result of the experiment was - no support, no help - no guidance - no protection - I gave myself away, I gave an I gave and I gave, and got nothing back in return for it, was actually harmed by it... 

Faith??  I am supposed to have faith??  

So I ask you, what is faith?

President Eyring once gave a talk that might address this conclusion. See: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/the-lord-leads-his-church?lang=eng

Consider that the man’s behavior simply had nothing to do with the Spirit’s role in calling him into that position. “The Lord’s leadership of His Church requires great and steady faith from all who serve Him on earth.” It has to do with his choices, not the Lord’s foreknowledge and reasons for calling him. The counsel “is to delay such judgments until you can better see what the Lord sees.” I think this includes what the Lord sees concerning the “great and steady faith” of all involved with anyone holding a position of authority. We know they are all fallible, but we do not know why or how accountable they are, only that the Lord atoned for everything for everyone. I think "seeing" sometimes requires the eyes of faith.

So I think the key to doing this this is faith: “It takes faith to believe that He calls imperfect people into positions of trust. It takes faith to believe that He knows the people He calls perfectly, both their capacities and their potential, and so makes no mistakes in His calls.” It is not about having faith to judge others but to judge “that you have the capacity to receive revelation and to act on it fearlessly" within the bounds of your own fallibility. The Lord lets bad things happen because He atoned for everything already, something we can only see with the eyes of faith.

I am grateful that the Gospel is for the vilest sinners and the most innocent of victims and everyone in between. “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction [the victims], and to keep himself [the sinners] unspotted from the world.” Sinners must repent (that is how it works for them), and victims must forgive (that is how it works for them), and both sinner and victim must choose to do so. The atonement of Christ makes the seemingly impossible possible, even if it isn’t within our immediate view. He works with us all so we can in time choose to be converted and healed (3 Nephi 9:13) and at the same He will bless us and pray for us (3 Nephi 17:21).

As for those who haven't the eyes of faith, I take this verse as comforting: "Jesus answered, Neither hath this [blind] man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." (John 9:2-3).

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, changed said:

I have forgiven the abuser - he was afflicted with the disease as a very young child, I can put my anger in the disease.

That's good. That is the best step towards putting those things behind you. However, I don't know his situation, nor whether I would blame it all on a mental disease. Sometimes people start with good intentions but end up going down a dark road.

Quote

  I do not trust the church - not to say that I do not "forgive" the church, I just do not see that it is led by the spirit any more.  I do not think the spirit would put someone with that condition into leadership positions for so many years (18+ years of abuse) so I just chalk it up to the church not being led by G-d.

I am not going to change your mind about this. But do you believe in the restored gospel? Do you believe that God had part in restoring the gospel to the earth? I am naturally a questioning person, so I question the leaders. Nevertheless, I believe Yeshua has led them to change the temple ordinance for example. I don't agree with everything every GA has ever said. I think most who read what I say know that. But, I still believe this Church represents God's effort to establish Zion on the earth - He just works with people who understand and follow HIm imperfectly.

Quote

I am not angry at any person, I give them the excuse of just being people - nothing more, nothing less.  I have not personally been able to help anyone overtly much - dinners etc. are just bandaids and do not really help anyone with anything real.  I cannot help others, and do not expect others to help me.

You can be a light. You can be a leader in your understanding of the gospel. That is the most God can expect out of us.

Quote

G-d is not supposed to just be a person though.  G-d's job apparently is not to protect anyone, is not to help anyone in any way - so I am not sure what that is.  Is that what love is?  If you love something let it go?  So I am supposed to embrace some kind of twisted definition of love through this?  

He was convicted last week... will be in jail for life, no parole thanks to "Jessica's Law".  

Sounds like justice was finally done. 

I believe God does protect His prophets because He has certain tasks for them to perform. However, God is no respecter of persons and does not show unnecessary favoritism. God's justice is usually delayed to the spirit world, however. Our trials in this world can seem unbearable, but God never gives us more than we are able to bear. The more He expects us to bear, the greater our exaltation.

[Storm Rider]

I think religion often misinforms individuals and individuals often seek for a god that is more akin to the Laughing Buddha - all you have to do is rub his tummy and you get your wish.  Belief in this type of God harms many of those who seek after God and or attempt to force God to be like that Laughing Buddha. 

Faith in God is not about getting your wish, healing you from diseases, and protecting you from harm. Though those things have and may occur, they are not the norm. Faith in God for me is about gaining an understanding of what my purpose is as a human, his child, and learning to be like him; to accept his will for my life.  Faith is not about what happens to me, but more about how I act in the world. 

[Atheist Mormon]

9 hours ago, changed said:

 

I no longer have faith, and the entire subject of faith now confuses me. My actions and beliefs are the result of experience, background

What took you so long? (sarcasm)......explain.....

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, changed said:

Faith??  I am supposed to have faith??  

So I ask you, what is faith?

I am so sorry for the things you have suffered, and for you "crisis of faith", if that is what you would call it. I too at different stages of my life have suffered such crisis's (not sure how that should be spell). I (on the other hand) enjoy pure clarity of knowledge concerning some doctrines, and the existence of God. But many times feel unmotivated by that knowledge and conviction. Despite my beliefs, and my desire to grow and contribute to the Church, I find myself unneeded in my Ward, and as a whole. I am giving serious thought of going to the Ward I spent 30+ years in, where I have many friends who truly care about me and miss me. That Ward is only 15 mins farther away than my present Ward. If that does not work, then it might be a bust altogether. I read my scriptures to a fault, and every lesson in any class I might attend, so I am beginning to wonder why get out on Sunday's. The condition with my back, makes sitting in Church almost unbearable, also, I am never missed, and have no callings. But I still have faith in many things, but not all things, or even most things, as I used to believe. I often pray the prayer in the scriptures, "Lord, help thou my unbelief". Sometimes that prayer is answered, and at times seems to fall on deaf ears. 

I wrote some words below as a poem to inspire prayer, listed below. I did this hoping to add some grace to my tongue, so that my words would be well received.

 

Hear me Father as I cry,

Once again the question; Why? 

Hold in Thine, my trembling hand

As now I seek to understand.

My once a sure sound belief,

Now shaken in this hour of grief

Hide not Thy face, on yonder thrown  

Draw near and leave me not alone. 

Does Thou hear me, when I cry,

From sorrows in my life I've know? 

Does a voice as weak as mine,

Ascend the distance to Thy throne. 

 

Anyway, enough of that negativity,

God bless...

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, changed said:

One generic answer to any question, and the saving grace for any soul - is "just have faith".  

I no longer have faith, and the entire subject of faith now confuses me. My actions and beliefs are the result of experience, background, observations, reasonable expectations.  People go through traumatic life events with and without faith in G-d, and the results are about the same.  

I used to have "faith", it was a nice comforting idea - then I did not receive any real support from anyone inside the church, did not receive support from G-d, no guidance from the Holy Spirit to protect me or my children - I tried the experiment - I read the scriptures every day, I attended the temple, I gave up my career because I was supposed to be a stay-at-home mom, I did everything I was supposed to do, and I was cursed for it, my children were abused for it.  I experimented on the words, and the result of the experiment was - no support, no help - no guidance - no protection - I gave myself away, I gave an I gave and I gave, and got nothing back in return for it, was actually harmed by it... 

Faith??  I am supposed to have faith??  

So I ask you, what is faith?

That generic answer "just have faith" sounds like a copout to me.  Someone may use it as a kind of excuse for not exercising free agency.  When bad or difficult to understand misfortunes come your way, just having faith doesn't sound like a workable option.  Someone ought probably to say something like "Take the bull by the horns," or other positive piece of advice.  Why?  Because nice guys and gals finish last.  This is a hard world, and just expecting everything to go nicely is not very realistic.

So what good is faith?  Well, faith that the righteous will be judged fairly by God, and that the bad people will get their comeuppance, might be a more workable faith.  Faith that the Atonement of Christ will save us at the last day seems worth something.  Suffering in this life is normal and horrific.  No need to deny it.  Evil prevails.  But faith and hope are all we really have, unless we want to join hands with the swine who run things and to cheat and lie just the same way they do.  There is a real choice, and it is ours to make.

By the way, the average LDS woman is not a stay-at-home-mom, and the LDS Church doesn't require a woman to take that road.  In modern times, it may even be the most foolish thing a woman can do.  Most households need two earners, and grandparents who are willing to look after the kids while those earners are at work.  We do need faith, faith that bad people will use us mercilessly, if we give them the opportunity.

[Anakin7]

Faith in ancient greek is pistis = acceptance, allegiance, commitment, confidence, dedication, devotion, discipleship, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience, trust, all of which are covenant words and in the Biblical middle eastern world is is to The person and work of the Lord Of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master, Christ Jesus.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Edited August 13, 2018 by Anakin7

[smac97]

10 hours ago, changed said:

One generic answer to any question, and the saving grace for any soul - is "just have faith".  

I no longer have faith, and the entire subject of faith now confuses me.

Consider the following statements:

1. I am a human being.
2. I live in Provo.
3. I am a member of the LDS Church.
4. As I type this my Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is snoozing on the couch next to me.  He just snorted, in fact. 
5. And my wife is practicing playing "Scarborough Fair" on her acoustic guitar a few feet away.  She is quite pretty.

Do you believe these statements?  If so, are you not exercising "faith" ("belief that is not based on proof")?

10 hours ago, changed said:

My actions and beliefs are the result of experience, background, observations, reasonable expectations. 

Lots of wiggle room there.

10 hours ago, changed said:

People go through traumatic life events with and without faith in G-d, and the results are about the same.  

I don't know about that.  The results can be profoundly affected by the presence or absence of faith in God.

10 hours ago, changed said:

I used to have "faith", it was a nice comforting idea - then I did not receive any real support from anyone inside the church, did not receive support from G-d, no guidance from the Holy Spirit to protect me or my children - I tried the experiment - I read the scriptures every day, I attended the temple, I gave up my career because I was supposed to be a stay-at-home mom, I did everything I was supposed to do, and I was cursed for it, my children were abused for it.  I experimented on the words, and the result of the experiment was - no support, no help - no guidance - no protection - I gave myself away, I gave an I gave and I gave, and got nothing back in return for it, was actually harmed by it... 

Faith??  I am supposed to have faith??  

So I ask you, what is faith?

Let's start here:

Quote

Faith in Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ (A of F 4). One who has this faith believes him to be the living Son of God, trusts in his goodness and power, repents of one's sins, and follows his guidance. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is awakened as individuals hear his gospel (Rom. 10:17). By faith they enter the gate of repentance and baptism, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, which leads to the way of life ordained by Christ (2 Ne. 31:9, 17-18). Those who respond are "alive in Christ because of [their] faith" (2 Ne. 25:25). Because God's way is the only way that leads to salvation, "it is impossible to please him" without faith (Heb. 11:6). Faith must precede miracles, signs, gifts of the Spirit, and righteousness, for "if there be no faith…God can do no miracle" (Ether 12:12). The Book of Mormon prophet Moroni ₂ summarized these points: The Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men. And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me. And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved [Moro. 7:32-34].

Although in common speech people speak of having faith in people, principles, or things, faith in its eternal sense is faith in, and only in, Jesus Christ. It is not sufficient to have faith in just anything; it must be focused on "the only true God, and Jesus Christ" whom he has sent (John 17:3). Having faith means having complete confidence in Jesus Christ alone to save humankind from sin and the finality of death. By his grace "are ye saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8). If "Christ be not risen," then "your faith is also vain" and "ye are yet in your sins" (1 Cor. 15:14, 17). To trust in the powers of this world is to "trust in the arm of flesh" and, in effect, to reject Christ and his gospel (2 Ne. 4:34).

Paul explained, "Now faith is the substance [or assurance] of things hoped for, the evidence [the demonstration or proof] of things not seen" (Heb. 11:1). Mortals must live by faith, since divine realities are veiled from their physical senses. The invisible truths of the gospel are made manifest by the Holy Spirit and are seen in the lives of people who live by faith, following the daily directions of that Spirit. Though most mortals have not seen the spiritual realities beyond this physical world, they can accept such premises in faith, based on personal spiritual witness(es) and the scriptural record of former and latter-day special witnesses whom God has called and who have experienced these realities firsthand.

The entire entry is worth a read.

I wish you well.

Sincerely,

-Smac

[Meerkat]

16 hours ago, changed said:

I experimented on the words, and the result of the experiment was - no support, no help - no guidance - no protection - I gave myself away, I gave an I gave and I gave, and got nothing back in return for it, was actually harmed by it... 

Faith??  I am supposed to have faith??  

So I ask you, what is faith?

Attitude makes a difference.  Easier said than done.  Here's an interesting Youtube with some insights by Victor Frankl, author of Man's Search for Meaning.":

 

[changed]

16 hours ago, california boy said:

I too lost trust in church leaders.  But trust in the church and it's claims has nothing to do with faith in Christ.  Maybe we go through these experiences to learn to place our trust in God rather than a church.  For me they are two completely different things.  The church does not save you, nor does it offer you Salvation.  That only comes through Christ.  

That is the problem though, the LDS church does place itself in the position of the salvation ordinances - forces you to go through them as a middle man - the church says you have to rely on the arms of flesh, you have to rely on "authorized men" to perform baptisms and all of the ordinances or you are not saved... so if you follow LDS theology, it is similar to the Catholic church in the dark ages - the church puts itself between you and God, puts itself between you and your salvation, tells you without the church and the church ordinances you will go to outer-darkness/hell, the church tells everyone they will be taken away from their family  without going through the church.  

The church does not save you, the church does not dictate your "sealing" with your family? - nice ideas, but not what the LDS church teaches.

 

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

.... delay such judgments until you can better see what the Lord sees.” I think this includes what the Lord sees concerning the “great and steady faith” of all involved with anyone holding a position of authority. We know they are all fallible, but we do not know why or how accountable they are, only that the Lord atoned for everything for everyone. I think "seeing" sometimes requires the eyes of faith.

So I think the key to doing this this is faith: “It takes faith to believe that He calls imperfect people into positions of trust. It takes faith to believe that He knows the people He calls perfectly, both their capacities and their potential, and so makes no mistakes in His calls.” It is not about having faith to judge others but to judge “that you have the capacity to receive revelation and to act on it fearlessly" within the bounds of your own fallibility. The Lord lets bad things happen because He atoned for everything already, something we can only see with the eyes of faith.

I am grateful that the Gospel is for the vilest sinners and the most innocent of victims and everyone in between. “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction [the victims], and to keep himself [the sinners] unspotted from the world.” Sinners must repent (that is how it works for them), and victims must forgive (that is how it works for them), and both sinner and victim must choose to do so. The atonement of Christ makes the seemingly impossible possible, even if it isn’t within our immediate view. He works with us all so we can in time choose to be converted and healed (3 Nephi 9:13) and at the same He will bless us and pray for us (3 Nephi 17:21).

As for those who haven't the eyes of faith, I take this verse as comforting: "Jesus answered, Neither hath this [blind] man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." (John 9:2-3).

 

delay judgement - judgement of what?  should I join an abusive terrorist group who claims they are led by G-d, not judge them based on the actions they have committed, wait until after I die and can see them as G-d sees them?  I think we all agree that we do have to make judgement calls in this life.    Let's just pull up Matt. 7:1–5 and read everything in context:

“Judge not, that ye be not judged. “For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? “Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” 

Am I, and Sam Young, and others in the protectLDschildren movement being "unjust"?  Perhaps one case of abuse would be misunderstood - but this is not judgement being made by one faulty person - how amny of you trust the court?  judge/jury/DA/PD - do you trust all of these people?  Agree with the prison sentences they have handed out to more than one "high priest"?  When it comes down to what the church "judged" (put these people in leadership positions, ordained them by G-d", and what the government/people have judged (put these people in jail), which judgement do you trust more?  Even Judas did not abuse children for years and years and years.... 

repentance vs. appropriate boundaries and policies that protect children and everyone from unmanageable diseases... 

I do not hate anyone, I do not have a problem blaming disease and natural physical conditions that are outside the realm of someone's choice - this has come down to faith in G-d, faith in the LDS church and its leadership.

 

13 hours ago, RevTestament said:

That's good. That is the best step towards putting those things behind you. However, I don't know his situation, nor whether I would blame it all on a mental disease. Sometimes people start with good intentions but end up going down a dark road.

I am not going to change your mind about this. But do you believe in the restored gospel? Do you believe that God had part in restoring the gospel to the earth? I am naturally a questioning person, so I question the leaders. Nevertheless, I believe Yeshua has led them to change the temple ordinance for example. I don't agree with everything every GA has ever said. I think most who read what I say know that. But, I still believe this Church represents God's effort to establish Zion on the earth - He just works with people who understand and follow HIm imperfectly.

You can be a light. You can be a leader in your understanding of the gospel. That is the most God can expect out of us.

Sounds like justice was finally done. 

I believe God does protect His prophets because He has certain tasks for them to perform. However, God is no respecter of persons and does not show unnecessary favoritism. God's justice is usually delayed to the spirit world, however. Our trials in this world can seem unbearable, but God never gives us more than we are able to bear. The more He expects us to bear, the greater our exaltation.

 

In all of the stories http://protectldschildren.org/ no one will every know the full truth and nothing but the truth.  In my case, the abuser videotaped what he did so that makes it pretty straight forward of seeing and watching what happened... he still denies it, even with the videotape... it is a mental illness.  It seems like a lot of these cases, the abuser does not recognize that what they are doing is harmful - there is quite a lot of rationalization and justification that goes on, and kids are groomed and taught in such a way that it is not until they are much later that they realize what has happened (See McKenna Denson and MTC Rape Case, years later that she and others are finally able to fight back... teenagers and little children are not old enough to fight back).  

So in the thick of it - when you cannot know the full truth - what do you do?  Either exaggerate or belittle, those are the two sides of not having honesty - belittle it is what usually happens which hurts the victims more and prolongs the abuse (why our case went on for so many many years without being taken care of), or you err on the side of safety and exaggerate - imagine the worst case scenario and go a little postal in which everyone rolls their eyes and calls you on exaggeration... It is everyone's choice, when they are faced with it - you cannot choose honesty, no one knows the honest truth - so will you choose to belittle and not trust victims? or will you choose to not roll your eyes at those who are filled with anger and appear to be going postal?  

My understanding of the gospel?  That has flipped 180° through this thing.  I can be a victims advocate, I can do that at least.  

Never gives us more than we are able to bear?  Not sure about that one.  People kill themselves, people become mentally insane from traumatic events - mental insanity and suicide constitute "more than they were able to bear" in my opinion. 

 

[changed]

14 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I think religion often misinforms individuals and individuals often seek for a god that is more akin to the Laughing Buddha - all you have to do is rub his tummy and you get your wish.  Belief in this type of God harms many of those who seek after God and or attempt to force God to be like that Laughing Buddha. 

Faith in God is not about getting your wish, healing you from diseases, and protecting you from harm. Though those things have and may occur, they are not the norm. Faith in God for me is about gaining an understanding of what my purpose is as a human, his child, and learning to be like him; to accept his will for my life.  Faith is not about what happens to me, but more about how I act in the world. 

 

I happen to very much respect the Buddha. I think you need to spend a little more time reading and studying the life of Siddhartha - how he left behind his wealth and position to live the life of a beggar - there are some who believe many beautiful teachings within Christianity came from Buddhism...

"Faith in God for me is about gaining an understanding of what my purpose is as a human"  The discovery of P/purpose and M/meaning in life .... what will create better results, deciding -

a) everything will be worked out after we die - that G-d will take care of it all... we can do a little work here, and try to prove we are good etc. but for most things, just rely on G-d, concentrate our thoughts and actions on the eternal rather than the here and now... steadfast and immovable in faith in an unseen being who is supposed to take care of everything...

b) worry about the here and now, stand for principles (kindness, service, pursuit of knowledge, health)  ... embrace change and progression rather than being steadfast at one station in life... How can you progress if you are not willing to see a new viewpoint or explore a different religious or philosophical viewpoint?  Foundations are needed to build on, but what was that foundation - was it principles or was it a G-d?  

11 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

What took you so long? (sarcasm)......explain.....

I have had spiritual experiences... conservation laws of thermodyanmics - conservation of mass, of energy, of information... of intelligence... conscience/mind/self-awareness/spirit - can't put my finger on it, don't know the details of it, but there is something there... I do not think death is the end, and do not think birth is our beginning - do not claim to know all of the details, but will not try to simplify life to say our conscience magically appears from no where, or disappears into nothingness... 

I ran a volunteer science lab for little kindergartners, and we were supposed to explain to them the difference between what is alive and what is not alive...  Defining what life is - it is a harder task than it first appears.  

 

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That generic answer "just have faith" sounds like a copout to me.  Someone may use it as a kind of excuse for not exercising free agency.  When bad or difficult to understand misfortunes come your way, just having faith doesn't sound like a workable option.  Someone ought probably to say something like "Take the bull by the horns," or other positive piece of advice.  Why?  Because nice guys and gals finish last.  This is a hard world, and just expecting everything to go nicely is not very realistic.

So what good is faith?  Well, faith that the righteous will be judged fairly by God, and that the bad people will get their comeuppance, might be a more workable faith.  Faith that the Atonement of Christ will save us at the last day seems worth something.  Suffering in this life is normal and horrific.  No need to deny it.  Evil prevails.  But faith and hope are all we really have, unless we want to join hands with the swine who run things and to cheat and lie just the same way they do.  There is a real choice, and it is ours to make.

By the way, the average LDS woman is not a stay-at-home-mom, and the LDS Church doesn't require a woman to take that road.  In modern times, it may even be the most foolish thing a woman can do.  Most households need two earners, and grandparents who are willing to look after the kids while those earners are at work.  We do need faith, faith that bad people will use us mercilessly, if we give them the opportunity.

I don't know that evil prevails - that humans have not killed one another off by now, that you can walk down most streets most of the time and not run into trouble... I think most of the people on this earth most of the time are good and decent folks.  

Faith and hope are all we have for the future, experience and wisdom - what we have from the past - discipline and mindfulness what we have in the present 

I agree with the career thing for women... The family proclamation  needs to be updated.  From what I have seen, women are the protectors right now (sorry, but most abuse is done by men - look at incarceration rates of men vs. women...) so many single moms out there for so many reasons - when families split, it is women, not usually the men (although this is starting to get better) - women take over being single parents more than men do...  clinging to the gender roles in the family proclamation of who is to provide and who is to protect?  Those are not the roles that are happening and can be very hurtful and harmful to those who are trying to escape bad situations.  

10 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

Faith in ancient greek is pistis = acceptance, allegiance, commitment, confidence, dedication, devotion, discipleship, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience, trust, all of which are covenant words and in the Biblical middle eastern world is is to The person and work of the Lord Of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master, Christ Jesus.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

 

I do like looking through the semantics of original Greek and Hebrew words.  Sometimes I think commitment or confidence in a human leader or organization is a bit shirking personal responsibility.  The easy/lazy (or humble/faithful?) road is to not think for yourself - just follow the leader... follow the prophet follow the prophet ... he knows the way? ... at some point, when old and wise enough - there is an individual component.

What do you view as your individual responsibility to your salvation, and what do you view is the church's responsibility?  Will you always follow the prophet - do you trust the prophet above your own conscience and your own spiritual guidance?  If there comes a time when you decide to trust your own thoughts and mind above that of any other leader, what will your relationship with the church be?  

 

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

Consider the following statements:

1. I am a human being.
2. I live in Provo.
3. I am a member of the LDS Church.
4. As I type this my Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is snoozing on the couch next to me.  He just snorted, in fact. 
5. And my wife is practicing playing "Scarborough Fair" on her acoustic guitar a few feet away.  She is quite pretty.

Do you believe these statements?  If so, are you not exercising "faith" ("belief that is not based on proof")?

Lots of wiggle room there.

I don't know about that.  The results can be profoundly affected by the presence or absence of faith in God.

Let's start here:

The entire entry is worth a read.

I wish you well.

Sincerely,

-Smac

 

Thanks for the link - I was not raised LDS, but did have non-denom Christian parents.  this thing has me re-thinking everything... I never did receive a testimony of the Savior - nice ideas to be sure, but never felt the spirit confirm it.  

not my will.... Jesus did not want to save us, he was forced into some horrible situation, are we supposed to rely on someone against their will?  That does not seem right somehow... 

justice served?  

it is not a matter of trusting scripture - cannot trust any book at this point, it has to logically make sense you know?  

Saṃsāra - transmigration - the theory of rebirth embraced by most of the world... that is more logical to me.  Not one unfair life, but as many lives as you need to experience and learn what you need... not relying on others to save you or forgive you, gaining wisdom through rebirth until you reach heaven - this is just, this is fair, everyone given the same chance, everyone having the same educational resources, everyone connected to one another through shared experiences - there is a reason so many people on this earth embrace this as their religious viewpoint.

4 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Attitude makes a difference.  Easier said than done.  Here's an interesting Youtube with some insights by Victor Frankl, author of Man's Search for Meaning.":

 

I do love the work of Frankl, one of my bumper-stickers has a quote from him - “What is to give light must endure burning.”

concentration on the future - making plans and goals, embracing the statement "this too shall pass" - that is the best way to get through anything.

Just trying to decide if my future should include the LDS church or not.

Edited August 13, 2018 by changed

[RevTestament]

55 minutes ago, changed said:

Never gives us more than we are able to bear?  Not sure about that one.  People kill themselves, people become mentally insane from traumatic events - mental insanity and suicide constitute "more than they were able to bear" in my opinion. 

Just to be clear what I mean - We are all faced with overcoming the world in this life. I am not saying that God creates the evil we are asked to overcome, but I do believe He will help us overcome it, if we rely upon Him. This may just be emotional support or guidance. I don't believe He typically intervenes to remove the evil. We become stronger by learning how to overcome it. I think that is our purpose for being here on this earth.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, changed said:

That is the problem though, the LDS church does place itself in the position of the salvation ordinances - forces you to go through them as a middle man - the church says you have to rely on the arms of flesh, you have to rely on "authorized men" to perform baptisms and all of the ordinances or you are not saved... so if you follow LDS theology, it is similar to the Catholic church in the dark ages - the church puts itself between you and God, puts itself between you and your salvation, tells you without the church and the church ordinances you will go to outer-darkness/hell, the church tells everyone they will be taken away from their family  without going through the church.  

The church does not save you, the church does not dictate your "sealing" with your family? - nice ideas, but not what the LDS church teaches.

How much power the church has over you is totally up to you.  No one else.  I personally don't believe that Christ has given any church power over others.   We look only to Christ for Salvation.  No, the church does not save you.  And the church does not dictate your "sealing" with your family.  Everything comes through and because of Christ.

[smac97]

24 minutes ago, changed said:

Quote

Consider the following statements:

1. I am a human being.
2. I live in Provo.
3. I am a member of the LDS Church.
4. As I type this my Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is snoozing on the couch next to me.  He just snorted, in fact. 
5. And my wife is practicing playing "Scarborough Fair" on her acoustic guitar a few feet away.  She is quite pretty.

Do you believe these statements?  If so, are you not exercising "faith" ("belief that is not based on proof")?

Lots of wiggle room there.

I don't know about that.  The results can be profoundly affected by the presence or absence of faith in God.

Let's start here:

The entire entry is worth a read.

Thanks for the link - I was not raised LDS, but did have non-denom Christian parents.  this thing has me re-thinking everything... I never did receive a testimony of the Savior - nice ideas to be sure, but never felt the spirit confirm it.  

Perhaps going back to the beginning and starting there could be helpful.

24 minutes ago, changed said:

not my will.... Jesus did not want to save us, he was forced into some horrible situation, are we supposed to rely on someone against their will?  That does not seem right somehow... justice served?  

You are referring, I think, to Luke 22:

Quote

39 ¶ And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.
40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

See also Matthew 26:

Quote

39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

I don't think Jesus "was forced" to atone for our sins.  He volunteered for it.  See Abraham 3:27:

Quote

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

See also here (excerpts from article about "Atonement of Jesus Christ" from The Encyclopedia of Mormonism) :

Quote

The need for a future Atonement was explained in a premortal Council in Heaven at which the spirits of the entire human family were in attendance and over which God the Father presided. The two principal associates of God in that council were the premortal Jesus (also known as Jehovah; see Jehovah, Jesus Christ) and the premortal Adam (also known as Michael). It was in this premortal setting that Christ voluntarily entered into a covenant with the Father, agreeing to enhance the moral agency of humankind even as he atoned for their sins, and he returned to the Father all honor and glory for such selflessness.

...

This infinite Atonement of Christ-and of Christ only-was possible because (1) he was the only sinless man ever to live on this earth and therefore was not subject to the spiritual death that comes as a result of sin; (2) he was the Only Begotten of the Father and therefore possessed the attributes of Godhood, which gave him power over physical death (see 2 Ne. 9:5-9; Alma 34:9-12); and (3) he was the only one sufficiently humble and willing in the premortal council to be foreordained there to that service (JC, pp. 21-62).

...

To meet the demands of the Atonement, the sinless Christ went first into the Garden of Gethsemane, there to bear the spiritual agony of soul only he could bear. He "began to be sorrowful and very heavy," saying to his three chief disciples, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, unto death" (Mark 14:34). Leaving them to keep watch, he went further into the garden, where he would suffer "the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam" (2 Ne. 9:21). There he "struggled and groaned under a burden such as no other being who has lived on earth might even conceive as possible" (JC, p. 613).

And here (excerpt from article about "Garden of Gethsemane" from The Encyclopedia of Mormonism) :

Quote

For Latter-day Saints, Gethsemane was the scene of Jesus' greatest agony, even surpassing that which he suffered on the cross, an understanding supported by Mark's description of Jesus' experience (Mark 14:33-39).

According to Luke 22:43-44,Jesus' anguish was so deep that "his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground," an observation that harmonizes with the view that Jesus suffered most in Gethsemane during his Atonement. Even though these verses are missing in some of the earliest extant manuscripts of Luke's gospel, their content is confirmed in modern revelation (e.g., D&C 19:18). The evidence for Jesus' extreme agony in Gethsemane is buttressed by a prophecy in the Book of Mormon and a statement by the resurrected Savior recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants. About 125 B.C., a Book of Mormon king, Benjamin, recounted in an important address a prophecy of the coming messiah spoken to him by an angel during the previous night. Concerning the Messiah's mortal experience, the angel declared that "he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people" (Mosiah 3:7). The Doctrine and Covenants gives the following poignant words of the resurrected Jesus: "Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; …which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit" (D&C 19:16, 18).

Modern LDS leaders have emphasized that Jesus' most challenging experience came in Gethsemane. Speaking in a general conference of the Church in 1982, Marion G. Romney, a member of the First Presidency, observed that Jesus suffered "the pains of all men, which he did, principally, in Gethsemane, the scene of his great agony" (Ensign 12 [May 1982]:6). Church President Ezra Taft Benson wrote that "it was in Gethsemane that Jesus took on Himself the sins of the world, in Gethsemane that His pain was equivalent to the cumulative burden of all men, in Gethsemane that He descended below all things so that all could repent and come to Him" (Benson, p. 7).

Also consider John 10:

Quote

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

Jesus was never forced or compelled to atone for our sins.  The voluntary nature of His Atonement is perhaps the singular most beautiful and sobering element of His suffering.

24 minutes ago, changed said:

it is not a matter of trusting scripture - cannot trust any book at this point, it has to logically make sense you know?  

I think I understand.  

For me, the logic makes sense.  I don't claim to fully comprehend the Atonement.  Its necessity, its function, its scope.  But I think I get the gist of it.

24 minutes ago, changed said:

Saṃsāra - transmigration - the theory of rebirth embraced by most of the world... that is more logical to me.  Not one unfair life, but as many lives as you need to experience and learn what you need... not relying on others to save you or forgive you, gaining wisdom through rebirth until you reach heaven - this is just, this is fair, everyone given the same chance, everyone having the same educational resources, everyone connected to one another through shared experiences - there is a reason so many people on this earth embrace this as their religious viewpoint.

I can see why this is an attractive concept.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

49 minutes ago, changed said:

 

I happen to very much respect the Buddha. I think you need to spend a little more time reading and studying the life of Siddhartha - how he left behind his wealth and position to live the life of a beggar - there are some who believe many beautiful teachings within Christianity came from Buddhism...

"Faith in God for me is about gaining an understanding of what my purpose is as a human"  The discovery of P/purpose and M/meaning in life .... what will create better results, deciding -

a) everything will be worked out after we die - that G-d will take care of it all... we can do a little work here, and try to prove we are good etc. but for most things, just rely on G-d, concentrate our thoughts and actions on the eternal rather than the here and now... steadfast and immovable in faith in an unseen being who is supposed to take care of everything...

b) worry about the here and now, stand for principles (kindness, service, pursuit of knowledge, health)  ... embrace change and progression rather than being steadfast at one station in life... How can you progress if you are not willing to see a new viewpoint or explore a different religious or philosophical viewpoint?  Foundations are needed to build on, but what was that foundation - was it principles or was it a G-d?  

I have had spiritual experiences... conservation laws of thermodyanmics - conservation of mass, of energy, of information... of intelligence... conscience/mind/self-awareness/spirit - can't put my finger on it, don't know the details of it, but there is something there... I do not think death is the end, and do not think birth is our beginning - do not claim to know all of the details, but will not try to simplify life to say our conscience magically appears from no where, or disappears into nothingness... 

I ran a volunteer science lab for little kindergartners, and we were supposed to explain to them the difference between what is alive and what is not alive...  Defining what life is - it is a harder task than it first appears.  

 

I don't know that evil prevails - that humans have not killed one another off by now, that you can walk down most streets most of the time and not run into trouble... I think most of the people on this earth most of the time are good and decent folks.  

Faith and hope are all we have for the future, experience and wisdom - what we have from the past - discipline and mindfulness what we have in the present 

I agree with the career thing for women... The family proclamation  needs to be updated.  From what I have seen, women are the protectors right now (sorry, but most abuse is done by men - look at incarceration rates of men vs. women...) so many single moms out there for so many reasons - when families split, it is women, not usually the men (although this is starting to get better) - women take over being single parents more than men do...  clinging to the gender roles in the family proclamation of who is to provide and who is to protect?  Those are not the roles that are happening and can be very hurtful and harmful to those who are trying to escape bad situations.  

 

I do like looking through the semantics of original Greek and Hebrew words.  Sometimes I think commitment or confidence in a human leader or organization is a bit shirking personal responsibility.  The easy/lazy (or humble/faithful?) road is to not think for yourself - just follow the leader... follow the prophet follow the prophet ... he knows the way? ... at some point, when old and wise enough - there is an individual component.

What do you view as your individual responsibility to your salvation, and what do you view is the church's responsibility?  Will you always follow the prophet - do you trust the prophet above your own conscience and your own spiritual guidance?  If there comes a time when you decide to trust your own thoughts and mind above that of any other leader, what will your relationship with the church be?  

 

 

Thanks for the link - I was not raised LDS, but did have non-denom Christian parents.  this thing has me re-thinking everything... I never did receive a testimony of the Savior - nice ideas to be sure, but never felt the spirit confirm it.  

not my will.... Jesus did not want to save us, he was forced into some horrible situation, are we supposed to rely on someone against their will?  That does not seem right somehow... 

justice served?  

it is not a matter of trusting scripture - cannot trust any book at this point, it has to logically make sense you know?  

Saṃsāra - transmigration - the theory of rebirth embraced by most of the world... that is more logical to me.  Not one unfair life, but as many lives as you need to experience and learn what you need... not relying on others to save you or forgive you, gaining wisdom through rebirth until you reach heaven - this is just, this is fair, everyone given the same chance, everyone having the same educational resources, everyone connected to one another through shared experiences - there is a reason so many people on this earth embrace this as their religious viewpoint.

I do love the work of Frankl, one of my bumper-stickers has a quote from him - “What is to give light must endure burning.”

concentration on the future - making plans and goals, embracing the statement "this too shall pass" - that is the best way to get through anything.

Just trying to decide if my future should include the LDS church or not.

Love your message here Changed. Love the quotes and understand exactly how it feels to wonder if I should include the LDS church in my life. One minute I'm ready to resign, but then worry what it would do to some family out there, next minute I see the good that the church can offer by way of service, next I see that it's just not cutting it.

I just read a book about Wallace Jeffs, Warren Jeffs of the FLDS's brother. It was absolutely mind boggling what Warren put Wallace and his family through and the power the scumbag had over the people. They were tossed and turned at every corner. Warren would take men's wives and children away at the drop of a hat and these men's would put up with it, and the book showed the horrific abuse these young women and girls went through. You're probably aware. And the men even, getting kicked out of the church and labled apostates and aren't able to show their face again in the community. And this is when I don't agree with authority of that kind from one man or prophet. And then the abuses that can happen in the name of so called religion, and the members basically giving up any kind of right to their own opinions. Some religions seem to just cause havoc in people's lives with their edicts and expectations. Buddhism sounds just fine to me after reading this book.

Here's the book, and interesting that he met a nice LDS woman and joined the LDS church. Which by most accounts, is much better than what he had in the FLDS. But the bad fruit from the origins in the LDS church and polygamy seems to be a stumbling block in my mind's eye. 

https://pickingbooks.com/blog/destroying-their-god

[CV75]

1 hour ago, changed said:

delay judgement - judgement of what?  should I join an abusive terrorist group who claims they are led by G-d, not judge them based on the actions they have committed, wait until after I die and can see them as G-d sees them?  I think we all agree that we do have to make judgement calls in this life.    Let's just pull up Matt. 7:1–5 and read everything in context:

“Judge not, that ye be not judged. “For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? “Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” 

Am I, and Sam Young, and others in the protectLDschildren movement being "unjust"?  Perhaps one case of abuse would be misunderstood - but this is not judgement being made by one faulty person - how amny of you trust the court?  judge/jury/DA/PD - do you trust all of these people?  Agree with the prison sentences they have handed out to more than one "high priest"?  When it comes down to what the church "judged" (put these people in leadership positions, ordained them by G-d", and what the government/people have judged (put these people in jail), which judgement do you trust more?  Even Judas did not abuse children for years and years and years.... 

repentance vs. appropriate boundaries and policies that protect children and everyone from unmanageable diseases... 

I do not hate anyone, I do not have a problem blaming disease and natural physical conditions that are outside the realm of someone's choice - this has come down to faith in G-d, faith in the LDS church and its leadership.

No, don’t join a terrorist group. I don’t know Sam Young, or whether you and he are being unjust. I never presumed you hate anyone.

From the sounds of this post, however, you are not really listening to a reply that was given only because you asked about a matter of faith. This is how I handle the intersection of God’s presence, horror and injustice, and fallible Church leaders in in my life.

Edited August 13, 2018 by CV75