BlueDreams Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 The Deseret News recently posted this interesting article about changing views towards "sex addiction" and "porn addiction" in the mental health field, including a recognition on how religiosity can influence the propensity for someone to diagnose themselves as being "addicted": If you view pornography a lot, does that make you an addict? The Church has obviously mirrored traditional society in its views on pornography over the last 100 years, but society's views have been changing a bit in the age of the internet. It will be interesting to see how things continue to adapt and change in oncoming decades... Sorta. I'd point out that women's views of porn continue to have a sharp disparity by gender, with younger men accepting porn by 26 percentage points. That's a huge gap...a gap that doubled from that of those over 50. I think part of that may be how mainstream porn has been marketed. But I also think there's other factors (such as earlier exposure for men than women and more negative experiences that women tie to men who are more heavily into porn, their own exposure to porn, and how women are treated in porn/the porn industry)
Popular Post BlueDreams Posted July 27, 2018 Popular Post Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) I’m purposely censoring myself because of concerns i might be blocked with the firewall...first, testing... Other thoughts when reading the article: I'm a bit of a fence sitter on the label. On the one hand I understand those excited to have any recognition. I think it can be a big problem, for those who are truly "addicted" (for lack of a shorter word). There's no recognition, their behaviors may be escalating in very real and dangerous ways, they feel out of control and isolated, and there's many who question if their problem is "real," or an excuse, or a form of s—ual repression. Even as s— with actual partners is floundering, those closest to them can't trust them, and it has real consequences such as emptied bank accounts and risky and/or illegal sexual behavior. On the other hand I get those who are leery about the recognition of addiction. I resonate with the s— therapist who has a person who watches relatively infrequently some p—— they googled for 5-20 minutes and that it's stayed in the same realm of this same stuff for years. (as in stable bad habit at best). As much as the one stated he uses the term that his client uses and it's , with this area I think that may inadvertently keep them stuck in their problems or spending an excess amount of money on fancy programs that don't really apply to them. I've seen those scenarios happen more than once and how their deep sense of shame and guilt kept them in this "addiction" rut. I would also point out that though I see the pitfalls, I can see holes in the argument as to why there's not really an addiction. For example in this article they used the underlying cause assertion.....except that just about every addiction case has underlying causes driving the addiction. For that matter, most diagnoses in the DSM have underlying causes that are driving the disorder. That doesn't mean the disorder isn't real. It just means you'll need to dig and heal these broken parts to have a more sustainable healing. (Which is part of my problem with over-medicalizing mental illness in general. It often isn't hitting roots but symptoms...not all the time, but often enough) Lastly, the divide in therapy I view as its own problem that could be inadvertently leaving people untreated. I've had a couple clients that were actively discouraged to go to a sex therapist because of the general reputation s— therapist have of denying any form of addiction to s———- (and for a number, even whether any form of s——l expression or desire is "wrong"...and I mean any). Which means many s— therapists likely have a blind spot to those who are truly addicted or have compulsive s———l behaviors. If they have a real addict, they may inadvertently leave therapy early or prematurely "fixed" and the therapist wouldn't know the difference. At the same time, the addiction model has some holes in treatment plans that I don't think they recognize...or if they do, they don't know how to fully address it. Such as modeling healthy s— and recognizing that there are things like healthy fantasy and even s——l imagery in relationships. What this means is that some addicts leave treatment only partially "Recovered" when it comes to healthily regaining their s——-l——y in a more relational and congruent manner. This has meant that I've known people who are nervous and uncomfortable with desire (both partners) after extensive addiction programs...and at worst they've somehow had their s— drive entirely squashed. To me that's like curing binge eating with anorexia. Stopping excessive behavior that is a part of healthy human interactions is not enough. You have to reteach a healthy s———l relationship with both themselves and their partners. With luv, BD Edited July 27, 2018 by BlueDreams To repress my errant tongue 6
BlueDreams Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 Yup...stupid firewall thinks i’m posting p—n ..oh the irony
USU78 Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 33 minutes ago, BlueDreams said: Yup...stupid firewall thinks i’m posting p—n ..oh the irony Too bad. I'd love to see you expand on this.
Judd Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 I think a big issue, societally, is that we view the term addiction as the ultimate designation of whether or not something is right/wrong or harmful/benign. Whether or not porn is or isn’t bad or problematic doesn’t hinge completely on whether or not it is addictive, but that’s at least how we perceive it. I’d say a similar issue would be the widespread diagnosis of bipolar disorder. That diagnosis actually has a negative predictive value (if someone says they have bipolar disorder, they’re more likely to not have it than to have it). But people have come to associate the diagnosis of bipolar disorder with saying “there’s a big problem,” so if a clinician tells someone they don’t have bipolar disorder, what they and family often hear is “you don’t have a problem,” which isn’t really the case. So if someone hears “your porn problem isn’t an addiction,” offended family may be hearing “their porn use isn’t problematic.” The other side of this is that because the addictive nature of pornography has been highlighted, the assumption gets made that all pornography use is therefore addictive, and anyone who has consumed pornography is therefore an addict. This becomes most harmful, in my opinion, when an individual or couple defines the individual’s self worth, or the couple’s entire relationship, not through what’s transpiring every day in their lives, but by what happens for an hour every six months. That doesn’t mean it’s not a problem, but it’s important to discriminate between someone who has to have a drink every morning to combat withdrawal symptoms and someone who gets drunk a couple times a year and becomes belligerent with family — they’re both problematic but they aren’t the same. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 3 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Yes - having dealt with addiction for years, the mantra “just stop doing it” is largely ineffective for most. To stop doing something, we need to fill that time or activity with something else. We need healthy distractions. Those in 12-step programs will call these “top line” or “outer circle” activities. What are some examples of "top line" or "outer circle" activities?
SouthernMo Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: What are some examples of "top line" or "outer circle" activities? They can be anything that the addict genuinely enjoys. For example: Reading, working out, art projects, making food, gardening, calling friends, woodworking, hobbies, etc... In church, I’ve sometimes heard the approach to be: sing a hymn, read the scriptures, or say a prayer. While these can be effective for some people, if I don’t genuinely enjoy those things, then I am going to get bored quickly, and open the door to return to the behavior I’m trying to avoid. For LDS, I think this is VERY important to acknowledge. Because, if we are trying to avoid behaviors, and reading the scriptures or playing an old EFY CD doesn’t distract us sufficiently, the approach won’t work. And if we keep trying the same approach that doesn’t work for the individual, we lose faith and hope. 2
BlueDreams Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Too bad. I'd love to see you expand on this. That was all of my thoughts for the bit as is. Just bleeping specific words that i thought were probably flaring the system 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 4 hours ago, SouthernMo said: They can be anything that the addict genuinely enjoys. For example: Reading, working out, art projects, making food, gardening, calling friends, woodworking, hobbies, etc... In church, I’ve sometimes heard the approach to be: sing a hymn, read the scriptures, or say a prayer. While these can be effective for some people, if I don’t genuinely enjoy those things, then I am going to get bored quickly, and open the door to return to the behavior I’m trying to avoid. For LDS, I think this is VERY important to acknowledge. Because, if we are trying to avoid behaviors, and reading the scriptures or playing an old EFY CD doesn’t distract us sufficiently, the approach won’t work. And if we keep trying the same approach that doesn’t work for the individual, we lose faith and hope. Good counsel. So, it boils down to "be anxiously engaged in a good cause" that you genuinely enjoy. How does that apply to a fulfilling marriage with children who constantly engage your full attention? Doesn't seem to leave much time for addictions -- except maybe indulgence in too much food and too many treats. 2
SouthernMo Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: How does that apply to a fulfilling marriage with children who constantly engage your full attention? Doesn't seem to leave much time for addictions -- except maybe indulgence in too much food and too many treats. Yes - they keep me busy. But, I have stress at times (sometimes caused by family) that could lead me to the escape of indulgence in my addiction. Also, you’re right on; when I have downtime (when I travel for work, or when I’m home alone), I am far more vulnerable - and I feel it and plan for it. I can’t speak for every addict, but i suspect my experience and approach are not entirely unique. 3
Glenn101 Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 8 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Too often, those who don’t deal with addiction misunderstand and blame the addict (which is only partially true), which does not help the addict heal. I understand that point very well, albeit not perfectly. I do know that sometimes a person can begin a type of behavior which if pursued long enough becomes a type of addiction over which the person loses control. In such cases, outside intervention in one form or another often is required to break the cycle, and then that is only effective when the person truly desires to change.. Glenn 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 2 hours ago, SouthernMo said: .................; when I have downtime (when I travel for work, or when I’m home alone), I am far more vulnerable - and I feel it and plan for it. I can’t speak for every addict, but i suspect my experience and approach are not entirely unique. 2 hours ago, Glenn101 said: I understand that point very well, albeit not perfectly. I do know that sometimes a person can begin a type of behavior which if pursued long enough becomes a type of addiction over which the person loses control. In such cases, outside intervention in one form or another often is required to break the cycle, and then that is only effective when the person truly desires to change................... Psychologist Jordan Peterson takes a somewhat different view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfgvFYtXVJ0b . Is his explanation of how to beat addiction useful? 1
Glenn101 Posted July 28, 2018 Posted July 28, 2018 21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Psychologist Jordan Peterson takes a somewhat different view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfgvFYtXVJ0b . Is his explanation of how to beat addiction useful? Not being a qualified professional in the field, nevertheless I will cheerfully advance my opinion on the subject as is my usual wont. Yes I believe that his explanation of how to beat addiction is very useful and on point. it makes a lot of sense to me. I think maybe I need to explain what I mean by outside intervention. In a drug addict's case, the person often has to be physically removed from the drug scene in order to begin recovery. I do not know what form of intervention would be needed for porn or sex addiction. It was interesting that religious conversion is the most effective means of helping with alcoholic recovery. I wonder if a recommitment to religion could help people who are addicts to things like nicotine could help them kick the habit? Glenn 2
Popular Post SouthernMo Posted July 28, 2018 Popular Post Posted July 28, 2018 44 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Psychologist Jordan Peterson takes a somewhat different view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfgvFYtXVJ0b . Is his explanation of how to beat addiction useful? I don’t want to appear authoritative. But, I have read dozens of books on addiction. I’ve gone to meetings and have had experiences successful and unsuccessful shared with me. I have nearly 5 years of sobriety after about a decade of addictive behavior. So take my perspective for what it’s worth. Jordan Peterson’s understanding seems to be spot on with my experience and understanding. He articulates it more concisely than I do. I remember the first time I watched this clip, and my jaw figuratively hit the floor. Between his accuracy in articulation on the challenges and struggle of addiction and the inadvertent (I think?) bridges he builds with LDS teaching on the atonement, I was pleasantly shocked. 5
BonhoefferFan Posted July 28, 2018 Posted July 28, 2018 23 hours ago, cinepro said: If the Church constantly told us that biting your fingernails was morally corrupt, and that people who bite their fingernails are being unfaithful to their spouses (because instead of eating their spouse's cooking they're eating their own fingernails), then people who find their spouse chewing their fingernails might find that it negatively affects their relationship because of what they've been taught about the habit. Are you saying pornography and sex addiction do not have an impact on family or on the individual? The analogy is pretty bad, but your point also seems obtuse.
Bernard Gui Posted July 28, 2018 Posted July 28, 2018 On 7/26/2018 at 3:45 PM, Duncan said: i've often wondered what the difference is between a bad habit and addiction Substitute pornography and associated behaviors for drug or substance and associated behavior in this checklist and see what you come up with... Quote You keep taking a drug after it's no longer needed for a health problem. You need more and more of a substance to get the same effects (called "tolerance"), and you can take more before you feel an effect. You feel strange when the drug wears off. You may be shaky, depressed, sick to your stomach, sweat, or have headaches. You may also be tired or not hungry. In severe cases, you could even be confused, have seizures, or run a fever. You can't stop yourself from using the drug, even if you want to. You are still using it even though it's making bad things happen in your life, like trouble with friends, family, work, or the law. You spend a lot of your time thinking about the drug: how to get more, when you'll take it, how good you feel, or how bad you feel afterward. You have a hard time giving yourself limits. You might say you'll only use "so much" but then can't stop and end up using twice that amount. Or you use it more often than you meant to. You've lost interest in things you once liked to do. You've begun having trouble doing normal daily things, like cooking or working. You drive or do other dangerous things (like use heavy machines) when you are on the drug. You borrow or steal money to pay for drugs. You hide the drug use or the effect it is having on you from others. You're having trouble getting along with co-workers, teachers, friends, or family members. They complain more about how you act or how you've changed. You sleep too much or too little, compared with how you used to. Or you eat a lot more or a lot less than before. You look different. You may have bloodshot eyes, bad breath, shakes or tremors, frequent bloody noses, or you may have gained or lost weight. You have a new set of friends with whom you do drugs and go to different places to use the drugs. You go to more than one doctor to get prescriptions for the same drug or problem. You look in other people's medicine cabinets for drugs to take. You take prescribed meds with alcohol or other drugs. https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/signs-of-drug-addiction#1 2
MorningStar Posted July 28, 2018 Posted July 28, 2018 On 7/27/2018 at 12:34 AM, cinepro said: I think that's the point of the article and other recent thoughts on "Porn addiction." If the Church constantly told us that biting your fingernails was morally corrupt, and that people who bite their fingernails are being unfaithful to their spouses (because instead of eating their spouse's cooking they're eating their own fingernails), then people who find their spouse chewing their fingernails might find that it negatively affects their relationship because of what they've been taught about the habit. I'm not suggesting looking at pornography is totally benign, but part of the solution to the problem might be to calibrate the response to the problem in a more measured fashion. It really doesn't matter how the church talks about it. Women would feel hurt by it on their own due to their husbands risking their jobs, actually losing their jobs even, choosing pornography over them, coming home late because they're using it somewhere in their car and doing certain behaviors who knows where. The mood swings. The grumpiness. Not wanting to participate in anything with the family while the wife feels the burden of making things function as normal as possible as she shields her children from what's going on. He'll say he's tired, but if the family goes somewhere without him, guess what he gets to do some more? Mormon or not Mormon - it sucks. 3
Bernard Gui Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, MorningStar said: It really doesn't matter how the church talks about it. Women would feel hurt by it on their own due to their husbands risking their jobs, actually losing their jobs even, choosing pornography over them, coming home late because they're using it somewhere in their car and doing certain behaviors who knows where. The mood swings. The grumpiness. Not wanting to participate in anything with the family while the wife feels the burden of making things function as normal as possible as she shields her children from what's going on. He'll say he's tired, but if the family goes somewhere without him, guess what he gets to do some more? Mormon or not Mormon - it sucks. More and more people outside the Church and religious institutions are recognizing it for the awful problem that it is. It is not a victimless behavior. Edited July 29, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
CA Steve Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 This solution may be a bit extreme but here is how one Arkansas woman cured her husband of his pornography addiction. Arkansas Women shoots & kills husband over pornography.
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