Woman Denied Temple Recommend for ...

[Glenn101]

Without having been visually privy to the events in question I cannot make any type of informed opinion on the matter itself. I am a bit disturbed that the people in question made this a public spectacle but can offer nothing further on that as I do not understand their motives. Breastfeeding in church is fairly common in my area and in a couple of other areas I have lived, but I never noticed any exposed breasts. The women either wore/wear blouses designed for the affair or they went to the nursery.

Glenn

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Thanks. I guess it was the administrative role of the committee you were on that caused me to remember incorrectly that you were an administrator at the time. 

Yep. Sister Gui and I were on the committee. After a full year of meetings, visiting other districts, writing drafts, editing, etc., we presented it to the superintendent who promptly roundfiled it as being too “draconian.” The irony was that it was essentially the same policy as the private school his kids attended. I learned first-hand what a volatile issue modesty can be.

[Hamba Tuhan]

31 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don’t believe anyone is prudish. 

I do. Including our current bishop, who has told boys that it is immodest to swim bare-chested. 

Thankfully, our stake president has told the boys they don't need to follow that 'rule'.

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I do. Including our current bishop, who has told boys that it is immodest to swim bare-chested. 

Thankfully, our stake president has told the boys they don't need to follow that 'rule'.

I don’t call people prudish because modesty is such an intensely personal attribute of character and I don’t wish to judge them. The word is used to marginalize the person. Of course, like all things modesty can be taken too far and corrections can appropriately be made when needed.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Exiled]

23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don’t believe anyone is prudish. Calling someone a prude is judgemental. It’s never intended as a compliment and is usually employed to censor or marginalize the person being labeled. 

Hence my question to you and some others here, can one have a sincere concern about modesty without being unfairly labeled?

You are neither a libertine nor an apostate.

I think everyone labels everyone else.  It's akin to judging everyone else and we all do it.  It seems to be a fact of life.  If you think you are unfairly labeled, I think I should hear your reasons and vice versa.  That is the only way to have a conversation or discussion.

So, how do you define modesty?  I don't even know how to draw the lines and seem to go on a case by case basis.  As far as the issue of this thread, I told you about the Disneyland story because that changed my thinking about the issue.  My first reaction was to recoil and I asked my Aunt why she had to be so public about it.  She pulled it out for all to see, or so it seemed, and my reaction was visible to the adults. My grandma immediately gave me a disapproving look.  My mother did as well and my aunt just explained that it was a fact of life and that my little cousin needed to eat like we did.  I guess I understood and am not bothered by the issue today.

 

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, Exiled said:

I think everyone labels everyone else.  It's akin to judging everyone else and we all do it.  It seems to be a fact of life.  If you think you are unfairly labeled, I think I should hear your reasons and vice versa.  That is the only way to have a conversation or discussion.

So, how do you define modesty?  I don't even know how to draw the lines and seem to go on a case by case basis.  As far as the issue of this thread, I told you about the Disneyland story because that changed my thinking about the issue.  My first reaction was to recoil and I asked my Aunt why she had to be so public about it.  She pulled it out for all to see, or so it seemed, and my reaction was visible to the adults. My grandma immediately gave me a disapproving look.  My mother did as well and my aunt just explained that it was a fact of life and that my little cousin needed to eat like we did.  I guess I understood and am not bothered by the issue today.

 

Interesting family, and good for you. None of the women I know well would do this in a public situation. But my question remains unanswered. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don’t call people prudish because modesty is such an intensely personal attribute of character and I don’t wish to judge them.

And I'm happy to use the word because my experience is that prudishness is potentially so damaging that, for the sake of the vulnerable, it needs to be identified and named. I don't think, generally, it has much to do with actual modesty at all.

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And I'm happy to use the word because my experience is that prudishness is potentially so damaging that, for the sake of the vulnerable, it needs to be identified and named. I don't think, generally, it has much to do with actual modesty at all.

I understand what you are saying, but I would have to know the person’s heart and even if that were possible I would be slow to judge.

[Exiled]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Interesting family, and good for you. None of the women I know well would do this in a public situation. But my question remains unanswered. 

My answer is that it depends on you, somewhat, and how you view "unfair" in terms of unfair labeling. I think labeling is unavoidable. Everyone does it and mere disagreement and categorizing is not always unfair.  So, it's part of the territory in any conversation or discussion, whether overtly verbalized or not. I think the solution is to point it out like you have been doing but also to try and have a thicker skin as well.

Earlier, I wasn't trying to call you a pervert by pointing out your disagreement with uncovered breastfeeding. I just wanted to know why you think it's immodest. It's cultural how it's viewed and it's a natural thing that occurs. I think you admitted that other cultures aren't bothered by it.  In my opinion, if only uncovered breastfeeding occurred here, I don't see the problem and I think the Bishop overreacted.

[ALarson]

18 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Modesty is a fairly regular topic here, usually as a result of some news story like this one. Inevitably, defenders of modesty end up defending themselves from unwarranted accusations. 

I was referring to this thread and no one has called anyone a "pervert" (that I've seen).  

I have not seen what your are referring to above.  I'd imagine that if taken to an extreme, some may make "unwarranted accusations".  But the word "modesty" is pretty much a part of our vocabulary and most respect it and desire it....just look at all the lessons for the youth on "modesty".  But anything can be taken to an extreme. 

I remember being told once (something this person was told by a GA...so it's anecdotal) that one can fall off the straight and narrow path in either direction......too extreme to the left, or too extreme to the right.  I agree with that and maybe this has been what people have reacted negatively too?  I don't know (without you giving examples). 

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, ALarson said:

I was referring to this thread and no one has called anyone a "pervert" (that I've seen).

Having been on the receiving end a number of times, I know this is a monkey in transit.....

Quote

This seems to be a big issue for you.  Does breastfeeding bother you that much?

It’s in the “have you stopped beating your wife” category of questions and can and has lead to unwarranted and unfair accusations. In another discussion on Church and school dress standards, two of the participants followed this kind of questioning with, “you must have something for young girls because you are concerned about their manner of dress.”

I’m fine with not arguing with you about it. It has happened regularly enough to various participants here to be a concern.

 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Having been on the receiving end a number of times, I know this is a monkey in transit.....

I was responding to a post on this thread.  But, you've been called a "pervert" here?  

 

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

It’s in the “have you stopped beating your wife” category of questions and can and has lead to unwarranted and unfair accusations. I’m fine with not arguing with you about it. It has happened regularly enough to various participants here to be a concern.

Who were you quoting above?  This:

Quote

"This seems to be a big issue for you.  Does breastfeeding bother you that much?

That's not from me and I would appreciate you specifying who you are quoting.  Thanks.

Edited July 30, 2018 by ALarson

[Exiled]

24 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I was responding to a post on this thread.  But, you've been called a "pervert" here?  

 

Who were you quoting above?  This:

That's not from me and I would appreciate you specifying who you are quoting.  Thanks.

He was quoting me.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

I was responding to a post on this thread.  But, you've been called a "pervert" here?  

 

Who were you quoting above?  This:

That's not from me and I would appreciate you specifying who you are quoting.  Thanks.

Yes. I have explained the reason at least twice. Exiled. You're welcome.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

 I remember being told once (something this person was told by a GA...so it's anecdotal) that one can fall off the straight and narrow path in either direction......too extreme to the left, or too extreme to the right.  I agree with that and maybe this has been what people have reacted negatively too?  I don't know (without you giving examples). 

I love this!  That’s so true and we probably all know members who are one extreme or the other.  

[JAHS]

[Bernard Gui]

18 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Nice. Calling Mormon women cows. I thought only Heber C. Kimball did that.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

Been thinking about this. 

One troubling aspect is the allegation that the husband was denied a temple recommend for “failing to control his wife.” Assuming this is true, it is indeed improper. I shudder to think that a husband could be denied temple access solely by dint of his wife’s misdeeds. What does that do to the principle of moral agency?

And is it indeed the expectation that a husband “control” his wife’s behavior? That flies in the face of principles of priesthood leadership taught in Doctrine and Covenants 121. 

Surely a stake president could be expected to understand all this. Which leads me to believe there is substantial context and backstory we are not getting here. 

What, if anything in the way of provocation, transpired here?  According to the narrative, the wife left the room in anger, leaving the husband to converse with the stake president and bishop. What was the husband’s attitude? With his manhood seemingly on the line, did he call out the priesthood leaders in belligerence and defiance, declaring that no one treats his wife that way?  Would that justify telling him to control his wife? No. But is that all they said or even the gist of what they said?

So suppose later the wife gets a somewhat garbled account of what happened while she was out of the room. It becomes part of her narrative as she takes her grievance to the media.

Failure to control your wife is one thing. Belligerently defying priesthood leaders as they administer discipline is quite another. 

Do I know this is  how it all went down? Of course not. I don’t think we’ll ever know, as priesthood leaders are under a strict mandate to hold interviews in confidence. But it’s worth consideration before jumping to conclusions on this or any other aspect of this sorry incident. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[clarkgoble]

57 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Where is that from? One of the local newspapers?

[JAHS]

23 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Where is that from? One of the local newspapers?

Just something I saw online somewhere. 

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Nice. Calling Mormon women cows. I thought only Heber C. Kimball did that.

No, it's just a cartoon I thought was funny.  Johnny Lingo would appreciate it. 

[Scott Lloyd]

19 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Just something I saw online somewhere. 

No, it's just a cartoon I thought was funny.  Johnny Lingo would appreciate it. 

Did it have “Mormon Cows” originally, or did you add that part?

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Why do we still have political cartoons? They are almost never funny and are even less likely to be witty. Do the cartoonists have blackmail material on the editors?

[JAHS]

27 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Did it have “Mormon Cows” originally, or did you add that part?

 

That was there originally.

[JAHS]

29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Why do we still have political cartoons? They are almost never funny and are even less likely to be witty. Do the cartoonists have blackmail material on the editors?

Leigh Rubin is the creator of the syndicated comic strip Rubes. He's fairly popular and has been around for a long time. You have probably seen is work on greeting cards and calendars.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Leigh Rubin is the creator of the syndicated comic strip Rubes. He's fairly popular and has been around for a long time. You have probably seen is work on greeting cards and calendars.

They still have physical greeting cards and physical calendars in Utah too? No wonder we are mocked. We are practically Amish.