Exiled Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 20 minutes ago, Anijen said: My take then: I thought how inappropriate of the Bishop and Stake President. I was going by what the woman first said about what happened. A downright abuse of power... My take now: I am with Juliann, Hmm, it seems her story is changing each time. Perhaps my judgmental attitude toward the Bishop and Stake President was a little too premature. Take away: I am willing to bet the facts are probably somewhere in the middle. Yes, I think because custom here in the US dictates covering up she should cover up and she is wrong to turn this into a vendetta against her church leaders. How I feel about the church leaders: Love them, but they probably should have let it be and not even made it such a hot issue. I still think its wrong to withhold a recommend for breastfeeding in public (if that was the reason). Could you link to where the woman's story is changing each time? Also, is this just a case of the woman telling different audiences a slightly different story each time or is the story radically different in that she said that one person was there at first and then many different persons, then finally just two people?
Anijen Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 1 minute ago, Exiled said: Could you link to where the woman's story is changing each time? Also, is this just a case of the woman telling different audiences a slightly different story each time or is the story radically different in that she said that one person was there at first and then many different persons, then finally just two people? I'm too lazy to do a search that you are probably more capable of doing than I am. I just followed the story as it progressed, as it did so, you could see the subtle changes in her story. Juliann has said she has probably followed this more than most, she might have the links and is more readily available. you ask me (computer illiterate) and you might be waiting... Further: I am not against the Bishop or Stake President here, I have just tons of experience outside the US where this [breastfeeding] is no big deal, thus, I thought it was a bit over dramatic reaction by the leadership (from her initial statements).
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, ALarson said: It was early on in the discussion and you hadn't given your restaurant example yet (which I agreed with and it gave me clarity regarding where you stood on the issue). I honestly did not know if you believed her behavior (ie. nursing in the foyer) was what you disagreed with and felt was "unreasonable" (your word). Some may feel it was "unreasonable" for her to nurse in the foyer of the church. I think you need to just drop this, Scott. I've clarified several times and I never did accuse you of anything here. You're being very overly sensitive regarding this (now and when I asked the question). It was not meant as an accusation. Your question was a general one about whether I am offended by breastfeeding in public. You posed it after I had explicitly said society should be more tolerant of public breastfeeding. My later sharing of the example merely illustrated what I had already declared. One reading me in good faith should have taken me at my word in the first place, whether or not I later chose to share the example. Edited July 30, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 51 minutes ago, ALarson said: Oh brother ... I think you and Bernard are protesting a bit too much here!! That sounds like another veiled accusation a la Gui’s Law. 1
Exiled Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 5 minutes ago, Anijen said: I'm too lazy to do a search that you are probably more capable of doing than I am. I just followed the story as it progressed, as it did so, you could see the subtle changes in her story. Juliann has said she has probably followed this more than most, she might have the links and is more readily available. you ask me (computer illiterate) and you might be waiting... Further: I am not against the Bishop or Stake President here, I have just tons of experience outside the US where this [breastfeeding] is no big deal, thus, I thought it was a bit over dramatic reaction by the leadership (from her initial statements). Well, it seems as though some are saying this and that without providing documentation. Do you think it would have been different had the woman involved been more open about her accusations? This is the battle of the hidden sources. So, I think we should just dwell on generalities. My position is that breastfeeding in the church foyer isn't a big deal per se. If the woman did it as others usually do it, then no big deal and this story is one of an overly prudish bishop trying to assert authority where he shouldn't. If she exposed herself too much, then it is entirely different. If it is somewhere in between, then that is a harder question to resolve and more information is needed. The shy ward members need to come forward and let us know what their side of the story is.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 30 minutes ago, USU78 said: Call it "Gui's [Gooey's] Law." I like that. So, unless Bernard objects, so let it be written, so let it be done. I will add the following to my sig line when I can get to my laptop or desktop computer: Gui’s Law: If on the imternet you defend modesty, the probability of your eventuallly being accused of being a pervert approaches 100 percent. 2
JulieM Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Your question was a general one about whether I am offended by breastfeeding. In public! (Read his question again.) Not just breastfeeding in general. Some are offended by that too (nursing in public or especially at church outside the nursing room). It was a reasonable question as I wondered what you meant by what you said too (disagreeing with what the woman had done). I’m glad you made it more clear. I’m in full agreement with you. I disagree with what she’s done here (and am fine with public nursing just as you are). I think we’re all also clear on why he asked the question and should just take his word (and yours) at this point. It’s kind of silly to keep bringing it up, really. Edited July 29, 2018 by JulieM 3
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, Exiled said: Well, it seems as though some are saying this and that without providing documentation. Do you think it would have been different had the woman involved been more open about her accusations? This is the battle of the hidden sources. So, I think we should just dwell on generalities. My position is that breastfeeding in the church foyer isn't a big deal per se. If the woman did it as others usually do it, then no big deal and this story is one of an overly prudish bishop trying to assert authority where he shouldn't. If she exposed herself too much, then it is entirely different. If it is somewhere in between, then that is a harder question to resolve and more information is needed. The shy ward members need to come forward and let us know what their side of the story is. It’s not the fault of “the shy ward members” that this woman chose to create a media firestorm over this. Nor is it their obligation to assuage your idle curiosity. 3
Anijen Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, Exiled said: Well, it seems as though some are saying this and that without providing documentation. Do you think it would have been different had the woman involved been more open about her accusations? This is the battle of the hidden sources. So, I think we should just dwell on generalities. My position is that breastfeeding in the church foyer isn't a big deal per se. If the woman did it as others usually do it, then no big deal and this story is one of an overly prudish bishop trying to assert authority where he shouldn't. If she exposed herself too much, then it is entirely different. If it is somewhere in between, then that is a harder question to resolve and more information is needed. The shy ward members need to come forward and let us know what their side of the story is. Exactly my feelings. I am accustomed to other cultures and to me this is no big deal, and got carried away. However, there in Utah, a more prudish population (no doubt), it probably is a big deal. I can see a Bishop having his mantle questioned a little bit and perhaps he was offended and took it to the Stake President, who, happened to agree with the Bishop.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JulieM said: In public! (Read his question again.) Not just breastfeeding in general. Some are offended by that too (nursing in public or especially at church outside the nursing room). It was a reasonable question as I wondered what you meant by what you said too (disagreeing with what the woman had done). I’m glad you made it more clear. I’m in full agreement with you. I disagree with what she’s done here (and am fine with public nursing just as you are). I think we’re all also clear on why he asked the question and should just take his word (and yours) at this point. It’s kind of silly to keep bringing it up, really. OK. I had already declared that I thought society should be more accepting of breastfeeding in public. There was no reason to pose the question with it’s implied accusation. Edited July 29, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
Anijen Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Exiled said: Well, it seems as though some are saying this and that without providing documentation. Do you think it would have been different had the woman involved been more open about her accusations? This is the battle of the hidden sources. So, I think we should just dwell on generalities. My position is that breastfeeding in the church foyer isn't a big deal per se. If the woman did it as others usually do it, then no big deal and this story is one of an overly prudish bishop trying to assert authority where he shouldn't. If she exposed herself too much, then it is entirely different. If it is somewhere in between, then that is a harder question to resolve and more information is needed. The shy ward members need to come forward and let us know what their side of the story is. As far as the other women and hidden sources, I'm not even going there... There were likely offended sisters, but even so, to me, it became too much, at which point the leadership got involved. Kind of sad either way. Now there are probable awkward feelings, feelings of resentment, condescension, judgments, all really unnecessary if the sister was simply given a temple recommend based on the questions and not because she breastfeed her baby in public. Just, to me, an overreaction on both parties. Edited July 29, 2018 by Anijen
JulieM Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: OK. I had already declared that I thought society should be more accepting of breastfeeding in public. There was no reason to pose the question with it’s implied accusation. But you went on to say you disagreed with what she’d done. You may be ok about public nursing in general but maybe just not out in full view in the foyer or at church. But realiy Scott, get over it! A question was asked and explained several times (ad nauseum now!), you made clear what you meant too. It’s not a big deal to be asked if you find public nursing to be offensive. I have family members who believe it is and I know others do too. Move on please!!!! You are being obsessive really over something that’s been made right now if you took offense originally. Edited July 29, 2018 by JulieM 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 1 minute ago, JulieM said: But you went on to say you disagreed with what she’d done. You may be ok about public nursing in general but maybe just not out in full view in the foyer or at church. But realiy Scott, get over it! A question was asked and explained several times (ad nauseum now!), you made clear what you meant too. It’s not a big deal to be asked if you find public nursing to be offensive. I have family members who believe it is and I know others do too. Move on please!!!! He didn’t ask about what I thought of it at church. He asked what I thought of it in general. This after I had already stated I think society should be more tolerant of it. I’m ready to move on, but not if I have to keep correcting you.
Exiled Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It’s not the fault of “the shy ward members” that this woman chose to create a media firestorm over this. Nor is it their obligation to assuage your idle curiosity. Well, I'm just trying to get an answer for those who think these "ward members" don't exist.
JulieM Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: He didn’t ask about what I thought of it at church. He asked what I thought of it in general. This after I had already stated I think society should be more tolerant of it. I’m ready to move on, but not if I have to keep correcting you. 🤣 Ok. I’m just saying others posted that they understood why he asked the question (I’m with them because I wondered too!). It wasn’t an unreasonable question imo but you obviously took offense. I think it’s been clarified enough though!
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) On 7/29/2018 at 2:27 PM, JulieM said: 🤣 Ok. I’m just saying others posted that they understood why he asked the question (I’m with them because I wondered too!). It wasn’t an unreasonable question imo but you obviously took offense. I think it’s been clarified enough though! ttribe chimed in on his behalf, and now you. I don’t know of any others. And it was by nature an unreasonable question when the answer had already been explicitly given immediately prior. Edited to add: I wonder what part of “I believe society needs to be more tolerant of nursing in public” is unclear to you. Edited August 25, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
JulieM Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Exiled said: Could you link to where the woman's story is changing each time? I don’t know that the woman involved has changed her story (Juliann would know). But others have spoken about it now (who are in her ward) and have given a more clear picture of what took place. It’s different than the initial first impression. Edited July 29, 2018 by JulieM
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 8 hours ago, SouthernMo said: That’s great. Consistency is admirable. How long would you say your views haven’t changed? In conformance with board guidelines, I choose not to make this a personal thread about me.
juliann Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Exiled said: Could you link to where the woman's story is changing each time? Also, is this just a case of the woman telling different audiences a slightly different story each time or is the story radically different in that she said that one person was there at first and then many different persons, then finally just two people? You haven't even bothered to read the thread by your own admission. But troll on. 35 minutes ago, Anijen said: As far as the other women and hidden sources, I'm not even going there... There were likely offended sisters, but even so, to me, it became too much, at which point the leadership got involved. Kind of sad either way. Now there are probable awkward feelings, feelings of resentment, condescension, judgments, all really unnecessary if the sister was simply given a temple recommend based on the questions and not because she breastfeed her baby in public. Just, to me, an overreaction on both parties. Anjien! This was not a a nursing problem! It was not just exposing a breast to nurse! People should have been offended! We need to at least allow for the possibility that the Exponent blog, that the Trib used for its only source, made no effort whatsoever to seek out the complete story. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 This story https://www.good4utah.com/news/local-news/lds-mother-says-her-temple-recommend-was-revoked-for-breastfeeding-uncovered-in-church-foyer/1329529056 indicates that it’s not just a matter of “discreet” breast feeding, as I earlier had supposed, but that she was/is determined to do it fully uncovered in full view of everyone in the foyer.
Exiled Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 14 minutes ago, JulieM said: I don’t know that the woman involved has changed her story (Juliann would know). But others have spoken about it now (who are in her ward) and have given a more clear picture of what took place. It’s different than the initial first impression. Could you link me to where the ward members have spoken about this? Juliann won't do so because apparently internet trolls ask for links to information.
Exiled Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: This story https://www.good4utah.com/news/local-news/lds-mother-says-her-temple-recommend-was-revoked-for-breastfeeding-uncovered-in-church-foyer/1329529056 indicates that it’s not just a matter of “discreet” breast feeding, as I earlier had supposed, but that she was/is determined to do it fully uncovered in full view of everyone in the foyer. So, this is the controversy? She didn't put a covering over her and the baby and someone got a glimpse of the side of the woman's breast or whatever?
strappinglad Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 Obtuse is an angle between 90 and 180 degrees. At least that is one definition. 1
Exiled Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 9 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Obtuse is an angle between 90 and 180 degrees. At least that is one definition. Maybe I have changed a little too much since I left? This doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. Anyway, I will bow out now that I got some answers.
CA Steve Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 2 hours ago, Exiled said: Could you link to where the woman's story is changing each time? Also, is this just a case of the woman telling different audiences a slightly different story each time or is the story radically different in that she said that one person was there at first and then many different persons, then finally just two people? The one person version then a two person version making the story suspect is just a tad bit ironic, if ya know what I mean.
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