A Debate ("Dialogue") Scheduled for Today in Magna, UT

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Isn't that the hope of every missionary discussion?

It is, but missionary discussions are not typically billed as an interfaith dialogue meant to discuss the tenants of different denominations.  They are specifically lessons about the teachings of the LDS church.  

[Tacenda]

I attended this debate between Grant and Alma, I remember that they both had good points. I don't care much for Jason, just don't feel the vibe. I remember watching Ancient Paths as well, during my searching. But have come to believe that the LDS church has every right to take what they can from the Bible and believe what they want. The only time I get upset with the LDS church is a person can be harmed by false teachings through lay members and even through those that should know better like the leaders, it's the same in the non-LDS Christian world as well, there's good and there's bad in all religions.

There is this debate with James White and Dr. Martin Tanner, as well that I've just found, and not watched yet. I wonder if the debate yesterday was video'd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_-Lg8ncs24

 

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Tacenda

[Amulek]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder if the debate yesterday was video'd.

Looking at the host church's website (here), it looks like they have a history of recording the debates they host and then posting them on YouTube, so we will likely be able to see it at some point.

 

[juliann]

We had some fun with White in the early days of FM.  He was very active in the AOL forums where Mormons could be chased out of "Christian" message boards so we were well versed in his side of things and knew where to apply pressure.Those were the days of chat rooms and you could set up private rooms. So we set up a small debate. His tactics included refusing to directly answer difficult questions so when pressed, broken record style, he ended up literally silencing our responses. It was hilarious. He also used to chase me around in different forums after I said something in one that evidently embarrassed him. He also used to be one of the conference protesters until the street preachers moved in and something he didn't want to be associated finally appeared.

After 20 years, I'm sure he is much more prepared and ready for anything. I'm also sure he hasn't stopped his evasion and diversion tactics. I can't imagine what Allred thinks he is going to accomplish and fully expect White to outmaneuver him.

[Scott Lloyd]

27 minutes ago, juliann said:

We had some fun with White in the early days of FM.  He was very active in the AOL forums where Mormons could be chased out of "Christian" message boards so we were well versed in his side of things and knew where to apply pressure.Those were the days of chat rooms and you could set up private rooms. So we set up a small debate. His tactics included refusing to directly answer difficult questions so when pressed, broken record style, he ended up literally silencing our responses. It was hilarious. He also used to chase me around in different forums after I said something in one that evidently embarrassed him. He also used to be one of the conference protesters until the street preachers moved in and something he didn't want to be associated finally appeared.

After 20 years, I'm sure he is much more prepared and ready for anything. I'm also sure he hasn't stopped his evasion and diversion tactics. I can't imagine what Allred thinks he is going to accomplish and fully expect White to outmaneuver him.

Especially with the home-court advantage, as it were. 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

It is, but missionary discussions are not typically billed as an interfaith dialogue meant to discuss the tenants of different denominations.  They are specifically lessons about the teachings of the LDS church.  

Tenets. 

[Scott Lloyd]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Who tends to rush in where angels fear to tread?

Ricky Nelson. 

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Gray said:

Isn't that the hope of every missionary discussion?

Present it as such then.

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Ricky Nelson. 

 

What about Elvis?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

What about Elvis?

Of all the recordings since the song was introduced in the 1940s, Rick’s 1963 hit is the most famous. Elvis’s recording didn’t come until eight years later, and it aped Rick’s style. 

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Especially with the home-court advantage, as it were. 

I wonder if Allred is aware of White's background and motivation. If someone knows him, maybe they could suggest he logs in and views this thread.

Edited July 8, 2018 by sunstoned

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I wonder if Allred is aware of White's background and motivation. If someone knows him, maybe they could suggest he logs in and views this thread.

Too late, I think.  Wasn't the "dialogue" scheduled for yesterday evening?

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Tenets. 

Sorry. I work for a property management company and my fingers type tenant in their sleep. 

[Gray]

On 7/7/2018 at 10:11 AM, bluebell said:

It is, but missionary discussions are not typically billed as an interfaith dialogue meant to discuss the tenants of different denominations.  They are specifically lessons about the teachings of the LDS church.  

Yeah, but missionaries do a lot of activities that are stealth missionary work. Our go-to was English lessons.

[USU78]

On 7/7/2018 at 2:54 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Ricky Nelson. 

 

Watch it, bub, this ain't no garden party.

[Tacenda]

On 7/7/2018 at 1:50 PM, Amulek said:

Looking at the host church's website (here), it looks like they have a history of recording the debates they host and then posting them on YouTube, so we will likely be able to see it at some point.

 

Thanks Amulek!

[smac97]

On 7/7/2018 at 1:50 PM, Amulek said:

Looking at the host church's website (here), it looks like they have a history of recording the debates they host and then posting them on YouTube, so we will likely be able to see it at some point.

From their website:

Quote

In our quest to call men from their idols to the living God, we have sponsored dozens of debates, mainly at the University of Utah.  Our representatives have included Dr. James White, Pastor Jason Wallace, and Dr. Mark Hausam.  Here are a few of these debates:

"Here are a few of these debates..."

Hmm.  Sounds like they are selective.  Like they pick and choose which debates they host on their website.

So if a member of the LDS Church was to make a solid and persuasive series of arguments in defense of the LDS Church at one of these debates, would Pastor Wallace post that particular debate on their website?

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

I emailed Alma Allred, and he responded.  He said that the folks who hosted the "dialogue" said that they had hoped to have the debate posted by Saturday, but that they can't find it yet.  He said he will notify me when the video gets posted.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Amulek]

I emailed the church who hosted the event the other day. They said they had encountered "numerous technical issues," but have posted the video as of yesterday. 

I haven't had time to watch it yet, but here it is for those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70ZGG_V3Ik0

 

 

[sunstoned]

Thank you for posting the link.  I found the discussion interesting.  IMO Alma Allred make a good account of himself.  He was very articulate, and it was clear that these types of debates are not new to him.  I was surprised to learn that Alma and James White are well acquainted and in fact have had an ongoing correspondence that goes back to the early eighties.

Each person chose three subjects to speak about. Apparently neither were aware of each other’s topics before the meeting.  After a topic was presented the other person was free to respond.

James White has been focused on “converting” Mormons for four decades.  In fact, He and Alma met on temple square during conference in the early eights. James was there with his people outside the south gate of temple square “witnessing”.   He continues to show up at general conferences and other Mormon events.  He made mention of a pageant in Arizona that he had recently attended.  

One thing that struct me as interesting is that in his observation, the attitude and general knowledge of the typical member that he meets at these events has greatly changed over the years.  He said that he and his colleagues use to be hoarse after an event because members would be lining up to speak with them and tell what they believed and to defend their beliefs.  Most had a clear understanding of the main differences between mainstream Christianity and LDS beliefs, and were happy and prepared to discuss them. All that has changed. James says now he has to carry around LDS scriptures on his pad to point out main points of Mormon doctrine to conference/pageant goes.  His opinion is that members are not as well versed or as knowledgeable in Mormon doctrine as they use to be.  He also says that the attitudes that most have now are is that church doctrine is close to mainstream Christian doctrine and are either not interested or can’t in discuss the differences.

Both men agreed from the start that the goal of this meeting was to inform and not to debate. From what I could tell, both were respectful.  

Edited August 4, 2018 by sunstoned

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

One thing that struct me as interesting is that in his observation, the attitude and general knowledge of the typical member that he meets at these events has greatly changed over the years.  He said that he and his colleagues use to be hoarse after an event because members would be lining up to speak with them and tell what they believed and to defend their beliefs.  Most had a clear understanding of the main differences between mainstream Christianity and LDS beliefs, and were happy and prepared to discuss them. All that has changed. James says now he has to carry around LDS scriptures on his pad to point out main points of Mormon doctrine to conference/pageant goes.  His opinion is that members are not as well versed or as knowledgeable in Mormon doctrine as they use to be.  He also says that the attitudes that most have now are is that church doctrine is close to mainstream Christian doctrine and are either not interested or can’t in discuss the differences.

Thanks for posting your thoughts on this, sunstoned!  I’d like to watch this myself now.

Did he have any thoughts about what he feels the above observation is happening?

It’s of interest to me because it’s pretty close to what my Grandpa expressed at a family gathering a few weeks ago (he’s very well versed in scripture and doctrines).

He thinks it’s coming from the top and observed that we used to hear much deeper doctrines taught and preached from the Prophets and apostles (like at General Conference).  He felt especially that although he dearly loved President Monson, that he spoke “feel good fluff” (his words) and stories and avoided anything very doctrine driven or teaching.  Not that he didn’t teach great messages (love and serve one another and so on).  

Do you have an opinion on why this may be happening? (What was expressed about the younger generations.)

Edited August 4, 2018 by JulieM

[sunstoned]

The comments were made as part of Jame's opening remarks, and he never followed up on them, nor were they challenged by Alma.  I don't believe they were meant convey anything negative, except that he did mention that if was now harder to witness to Mormons because  their knowledge of their own doctrine is now much more shallow.    He didn't really go into much detail on this.  James White's topics were multiple Gods, Book of Abraham translation and the LDS concept of Priesthood.  At least this was the first part of the debate.  I kind of lost interest haft way through the recording.

I also feel that scriptural scholarship has slipped in the church.  I don't have any real evidence except for what I have experienced in SS and EQ lessons and discussions.  Compare Lesson manuals from the 1970's with what we have today.  Everything has been dumbed down to simple platitudes that are repeated over and over, year after year.  Gone are the days of BRM and JFS, who were scriptorians and didn't care much about PR. Their talks and books were on doctrine.  After they were gone the focus of the brethren shifted to public relations,.  Expecally whith GBH. 

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by sunstoned

[clarkgoble]

24 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I also feel that scriptural scholarship has slipped in the church.  I don't have any real evidence except for what I have experienced in SS and EQ lessons and discussions.  Compare Lesson manuals from the 1970's with what we have today.  Everything has been dumbed down to simple platitudes that are repeated over and over, year after year.  Gone are the days of BRM and JFS, who were scriptorians and didn't care much about PR. Their talks and books were on doctrine.  After they were gone the focus of the brethren shifted to public relations,.  Expecally whith GBH. 

I think the Church wisely recognized that much of the Church, particularly outside of the US, needs a focus on the basics. Those who want to go beyond the basics should be doing that in their personal study.

I'm not sure I'd blame the manuals though. For SS there's almost no manual beyond the scriptures themselves. Teachers can teach the material in such a wide variety of ways, depending upon the audience, that it seems odd to blame the scriptures. It's been that way pretty much since Pres. Benson made the scriptures themselves the topic for Sunday school.

Priesthood certainly had complex manuals back in the 30's through 60's. Some were good. Some, to be charitable, were not. I confess I don't have good memories of the old manuals myself. But Priesthood has always been my favorite meeting just because, at least when it was just EQ, it was so laid back and pragmatic. People were just focused on practical applications which I loved. It might not be intellectual, but I'd argue that the practical in that context is more important and ultimately more interesting.

Anyway, I'd say we've been in a renaissance of scriptural scholarship. There's better resources out there now, for those doing personal study, than at any time in the past. Further, because of Amazon and ebooks, it's easier to get and use than ever before.

Relative to the debate though, I suspect the issue is proof texting debates and the Church has wisely moved away from that. I come from the camp that prooftexting is almost always nonsense and acontextually reads scripture as if they were legal documents. So if members are doing that less than its heydays in the 70's and 80's then that's a good thing in my opinion. A lot that was called scriptural scholarship back in the day was anything but. It was mostly just reading scripture the way a lawyer read statutes. (And often just aping McConkie's readings truth be told - not that McConkie only did those kinds of readings)

Edited August 5, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Tacenda]

On 8/3/2018 at 10:44 AM, Amulek said:

I emailed the church who hosted the event the other day. They said they had encountered "numerous technical issues," but have posted the video as of yesterday. 

I haven't had time to watch it yet, but here it is for those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70ZGG_V3Ik0

 

 

Thanks Amulek!!

[Meerkat]

Resolved

Edited August 5, 2018 by Meerkat