bluebell Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 On 7/8/2018 at 8:40 PM, FormerLDS said: Do you believe the words of Jesus Christ or not? Jesus Christ plainly said "He that believeth on me HATH everlasting life." John 6:47 That verse was not mistranslated (see JSV), is a present-tense verb and is very plain and simple for even a child to understand. The Savior says this same thing on numerous occasions. Perhaps you could provide how your epistemology explains the words of Jesus Christ in John 6:47 and other passages that use the present-tense "have" when referring to eternal life? Specifically how is what I'm saying not taking into account what the scriptures teach eternal life is? I do. I believe all the words of Jesus Christ. And we've had this conversation many many times already. We both know there is no reason for me to provide all of that stuff for you again. 1
FormerLDS Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 On 7/9/2018 at 10:34 AM, pogi said: This despite the fact that Christ himself praises the pure in heart, and that Christ dwells in our hearts through faith (Ephesians 3:17), and the fact that Jeremiah (the same prophet that said "who can know the heart") later said "the word of God is written in our hearts" (Jeremiah 31:11). Who are the "pure in heart"? If Christ dwells in your heart through faith, as you claim, then do you have eternal life? 1 John 5:12 plainly tells us those who have the Son have eternal life. "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." If you do not have eternal life then you do not have the Son and you do not have His word written upon your heart. Do you have eternal life Pogi? On 7/9/2018 at 10:34 AM, pogi said: He will also dismiss the parable of the sower which shows that all spiritual understanding happens in our hearts via our spiritual eyes and ears. There is a seed that gives life and a seed taken away before it can give life. The parable of the sower demonstrates how the seed of the word GIVES life within those who believe. Again, do you have eternal life within you?
FormerLDS Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 On 7/9/2018 at 1:00 PM, mfbukowski said: Just more Bible worship without a basis for believing it. He clearly believes in the Bible. Why? Because he has a testimony of it like it or not. That is the only reason for believing all those legends and contradictions and calling it the Word of God. There is no other reason for doing so. There are hundreds of old scriptures lying around the face of the earth which Christians do NOT accept because of history- so clearly history is not the reason. How can you know that Jesus is the Savior and that you are "saved"? How does he know he is "saved"? That pesky old HEART again! It's a circular argument. He cannot offer a coherent REASON to believe other than the heart- and yet he disparages it. Central contradiction there. It sure ain't science that the death of one man 2000 years ago takes away his sins. What other alternative does he have? Because it says so in some old book? Give me a break! I think you have to be a good atheist before you can justify religious experience- that is the great paradox of Adam and Eve. You cannot know God until you have seen the godless universe and rejected it. You cannot know the good without knowing "evil" And what is the only church that teaches this while affirming personal revelation? Guess. Even philosophers like Rorty who are themselves atheists end up affirming something like Mormonism as the only way one can reasonably justify belief in God- that is why I like him. He is one atheist who leaves the door open that God exists. Sort of. I have a hand-written pardon from the judge Himself - written with His own blood - forgiving me of all debt, freeing me from all chains, perfecting me forever and giving me eternal life that I have within me right now. A feeling in my heart has nothing to do with it. You can say the same thing if you would be willing to believe the plain and simple words of Jesus Christ friends.
FormerLDS Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: I do. I believe all the words of Jesus Christ. And we've had this conversation many many times already. We both know there is no reason for me to provide all of that stuff for you again. Like many others here, you have a very elaborate means of explaining why Jesus Christ didn't really mean "hath everlasting life". Try as you may you will never explain away the fact that on many occasions the Savior plainly tells those who believe upon Him that they have eternal life.
Calm Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 54 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: See, I think you actually believe what you want to believe and not what Jesus Christ says, so let's put your claim to a very simple test. Jesus Christ plainly tells us in John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." Do you have eternal life or not? How do you know this is not you, with your own bias causing you to interpret God's teachings and promises in the wrong way? There are, after all, different ways to understand even the same words besides simply misreading it. Obviously, different people are understanding the words in different ways, so what guarantee do you have that you are right and allthose who disagree with your interpretation/understanding are wrong? Edited July 10, 2018 by Calm 1
FormerLDS Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 32 minutes ago, Calm said: How do you know this is not you, with your own bias causing you to interpret God's teachings and promises in the wrong way? There are, after all, different ways to understand even the same words besides simply misreading it. Obviously, different people are understanding the words in different ways, so what guarantee do you have that you are right and allthose who disagree with your interpretation/understanding are wrong? Can you think of a better guarantee than the very words of Jesus Christ?
pogi Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: I have a hand-written pardon from the judge Himself - written with His own blood No...you don't. We don't have any hand written materials from God, especially not in blood. Unless you have located the government facility that the lost ark is being stored in after being recovered from the Nazi's that were destroyed after opening the ark (Indiana Jones), we don't have any first-hand accounts from God. The only place that God writes his law directly, is on our hearts. 2
Calm Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 50 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Can you think of a better guarantee than the very words of Jesus Christ? How do you know you understand the words of Jesus Christ correctly? You do not appear to be understanding what others are saying here (your answer here has nothing to do with my original question, for example, and appears to possibly be responding to the question how do you know Bible is true), so why should you assume you understand the Bible correctly? Edited July 10, 2018 by Calm 2
pogi Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Who are the "pure in heart"? Those who repent and are cleansed through baptism and come unto Christ with full purpose of heart, believe in him, put his will above their own, and actually do his will (commandments) above their own. 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." That is the promise. We have life...in the end, if we continue and remain ("abide") with him. If we abide in him, he will abide in us. "Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me (John 15:4 NIV)" Who is it that continues with, remains in, or abides in Christ? Quote 1 John 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us How does one know that He abides in us? By the Spirit whom he has given us! Not by the Bible! Edited July 10, 2018 by pogi 1
FormerLDS Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, pogi said: No...you don't. We don't have any hand written materials from God, especially not in blood. Unless you have located the government facility that the lost ark is being stored in after being recovered from the Nazi's that were destroyed after opening the ark (Indiana Jones), we don't have any first-hand accounts from God. The God I worship and whom I believe is capable of keeping His promise that He would preserve His words perfectly from the day they were written until today and forever. "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7 1 hour ago, pogi said: The only place that God writes his law directly, is on our hearts. Hebrews 10:14-17 plainly tells us those who have His laws written in their hearts and minds are those whom Jesus Christ has perfected and sanctified. "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." Are you perfect? Do you obey His commandment to be perfect? If not, then you do not have His laws written upon your heart and mind.
FormerLDS Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Calm said: How do you know you understand the words of Jesus Christ correctly? Jesus Christ plainly tells us. For example, in John 6:47 the Savior says "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." I believe upon Him (not Him plus my own worthiness) for eternal life. Therefore I have eternal life according to His word. 1 hour ago, Calm said: You do not appear to be understanding what others are saying here (your answer here has nothing to do with my original question, for example, and appears to possibly be responding to the question how do you know Bible is true), so why should you assume you understand the Bible correctly? I just believe what Jesus Christ plainly says. Why should you assume the feelings you feel in your heart are from the Holy Spirit? You read it and chose to believe what you read. Same as me. Why would you not believe what Jesus Christ Himself has said?
Calm Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) How do you know you are not delusional or have a reading disorder or just really strong preconceptions so you are misunderstanding the words without realizing it? Edited July 11, 2018 by Calm
RevTestament Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 5 hours ago, FormerLDS said: If God is big enough to create this world with nothing more than His voice then He should also be big enough to make - and break - His own commandments as He pleases. Maybe I just don't get it? Please share your interpretation of 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." According to you, what does this verse really mean? Specifically the part about "for his seed remaineth in him" as pertaining to why those who are born again do not sin. I'd love to hear this. I have shared what I think it is saying several times. Read it together with 1 John 1: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Here I think John is making it quite clear that the claim that "I am sinless" is not truthful. That is what you claim in your belief that you cannot sin. The two interpretations cannot align with each other. There are several other examples, but you choose only to believe your narrow interpretation. Like I said you either get it or you don't. No offense. This debate is really not worth the effort. Do you believe I am going to hell because I continue to repent of sins? I think the danger lies in your interpretation. Not mine.
mfbukowski Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 6 hours ago, FormerLDS said: See, I think you actually believe what you want to believe and not what Jesus Christ says, so let's put your claim to a very simple test. Jesus Christ plainly tells us in John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." Do you have eternal life or not? Of course by that definition.
mfbukowski Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 6 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Like many others here, you have a very elaborate means of explaining why Jesus Christ didn't really mean "hath everlasting life". Try as you may you will never explain away the fact that on many occasions the Savior plainly tells those who believe upon Him that they have eternal life. Everlasting is not eternal.
Calm Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, FormerLDS said: If God is big enough to create this world with nothing more than His voice then He should also be big enough to make - and break - His own commandments as He pleases. Maybe I just don't get it? Please share your interpretation of 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." According to you, what does this verse really mean? Specifically the part about "for his seed remaineth in him" as pertaining to why those who are born again do not sin. I'd love to hear this. Quote No one who is a child of God is habitually guilty of sin. A God-given germ of life remains in him, and he cannot habitually sin--because he is a child of God Others use the phrase "practice sin", but I think this from the Weymouth NT is clearer. http://biblehub.com/1_john/3-9.htm Also: Quote Verses 9-12. - Sin is absolutely incompatible with being born of God, as is shown by the presence or absence of brotherly love. Verse 9. - Having stated that every one that doeth sin is of the devil, St. John now states the opposite truth, but from the other side; not "every one that doeth no sin is of God," which hardly needs to be stated; but every one that is begotten of God doeth no sin, which is startling. Who, then, can be begotten of God? But the statement is similar to that in verse 6, and is to be similarly understood. So far as any man sins, his regeneration is incomplete. If the new birth from God were perfect, sin would be morally impossible οὐ δύναται ἁμαρτεῖν. The new principle of life abides and grows in him, and, under perfect conditions, it entirely prevents the old unregenerate nature from rebelling. Note that St. John does not say οὐ δύναται ἁμαρτεῖν," cannot commit a sin," but οὐ δύναται ἁμαρτάνειν, "cannot be a sinner." An act is different from a state of sin. This is an ideal to which every Christian is bound to aspire - inability to sin. But to some extent this ideal is a fact in the case of every true Christian. There are sins which to a good man are by God's grace quite impossible. The meaning of σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ μένει is uncertain: either (1) "His seed abideth in Him," i.e., those who are born of God abide in God; or (2) "his seed abideth in him," i.e., the new principle which he has received continues to operate in the man; or (3) "His seed abideth in him," i.e., God's quickening Gift continues to operate in the man. (For σπέρμα αὐτοῦ, in the sense of "those born of God," comp. Isaiah 53:10.) But this is the least probable of the three interpretations; in this sense St. John would probably have written τέκνον. Note the tense of the concluding verb, γεγέννηται, not ἐγεννήθη: his birth from God is a fact which still continues, not one that is past and gone. Quote of every such an one it is said, he doth not commit sin; does not make it his trade and business; it is not the constant course of his life; he does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it; he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it.... Quote "The child of God in this conflict receives indeed wounds daily, but never throws away his arms or makes peace with his deadly foe" [Luther]. The exceptional sins into which the regenerate are surprised, are owing to the new life principle being for a time suffered to lie dormant, and to the sword of the Spirit not being drawn instantly. Sin is ever active, but no longer reigns... If your understanding is the "plain words of Jesus Christ", then why aren't these commentators saying it means your soul is already sinless? Edited July 11, 2018 by Calm
Anakin7 Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) On July 9, 2018 at 7:25 AM, Anakin7 said: Repost: for FormerLDS - True Truth is The Banner carried by those who are True Saints, Christians, Disciples of The Lord Of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master, Christ Jesus. Yes there are multiple forms, models, views of truth which are false which can be detected by mighty prayer and study of ancient scripture and of the Ancient Saints, Christians and followers of The Master Christ Jesus. Your comment of the arrogant, prideful Religious leaders of Jesus day [who were actually the real heretics] is non comparable I am speaking of the heretics and false teachers that were growing like weeds in N.T and post N.T time period. Yes you are giving private interpretation to holy Writ - Imputed Righteousness of Christ, Faithfulness of Christ. I applaud and give you BIG HUGS in your Believing on Christ Jesus to posses eternal life and not your own self boasting worthiness. Once again -No Imputed Righteousness - http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/01/the-myth-of-imputef-righteousnes-of.html http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/04/michael-flournoy-on-forensic.html http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/ConsequencesOfimputedRighteousness.htm http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/impute.html https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/esimputedrighteousness.htm I am not totally against the Faithfulness of Christ reading but here is another response to that understanding and viewpoint - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/faith-in-christ-or-faithfulness-of-christ/ https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/faith-in-christ-or-faithfulness-of-christ-whats-the-difference/ Faith In Jesus - http://www.gotquestions.org/faith-in-jesus.html https://www.openbible.info/topics/faith_in_jesus By whose Faith are we Saved ? - https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/28by-whose-faith-are-we-saved-christs-or-ours/ Christians cannot sin ? - https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/christians-cannot-sin-or-can-they/ And a response to your Gnosticism and Manicheanism Views. Thank you so very much for re confirming my LDS, Saint, Christian, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior Belief and Faith In my Lord Of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master, Christ Jesus and His Awesome Atoning Blood Sacrifice and True Grace on my behalf. May True Grace be with you and all you Love. Yes I use links at times to Defend The LDS New Jerusalem City against the fiery arrows/darts/stones thrown against us, that is how I roll. If you do not read them, fine but it is archived in Heaven that I presented them to you to pray ponder, search. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In his Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Edited July 11, 2018 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) From my understanding is that all of the words in Holy Writ in the New Testament that use the words - Believe, Believing, Faith, they are used as a present with an ongoing action. So when Former LDS keeps telling us that he that "believes" [Present with ongoing action of Grace empowered Labors of Love to God and our fellow man/woman] "hath" Eternal Life as understood by the ancient Christians and us we True LDS say "Amen !. We must be worthy of Jesus - http://www.eternallifeblog.com/worthy-jesus/ . If we believe in Jesus we are obeying Jesus - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm There is no Once Saved Always Saved In Holy Writ How to enter the Kingdom you must and must not - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm . May To Grace be to all . The Atonement it Is the Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Edited July 11, 2018 by Anakin7
jkwilliams Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 17 hours ago, bluebell said: I do. I believe all the words of Jesus Christ. And we've had this conversation many many times already. We both know there is no reason for me to provide all of that stuff for you again. Will all due respect to FormerLDS, the suggestion here seems to be that if you don't agree with position X, you don't "believe the words of Christ." To fundamentalists, the words of Christ mean one thing only, and if you interpret them differently, you clearly don't believe. Reminds me of something I read several years ago: Quote The word "fundamentalism" was first used in the early years of the last century by anti-liberal US Christians, who singled out seven supposed fundamentals of their faith. The word, then, is not one of those derogatory terms that only other people use about you, like "fatso". It began life as a proud self-description. The first of the seven fundamentals was a belief in the literal truth of the Bible; and this is probably the best definition of fundamentalism there is. It is basically a textual affair. Fundamentalists are those who believe that our linguistic currency is trustworthy only if it is backed by the gold standard of the Word of Words. They see God as copperfastening human meaning. Fundamentalism means sticking strictly to the script, which in turn means being deeply fearful of the improvised, ambiguous or indeterminate. Fundamentalists, however, fail to realise that the phrase "sacred text" is self-contradictory. Since writing is meaning that can be handled by anybody, any time, it is always profane and promiscuous. Meaning that has been written down is bound to be unhygienic. Words that could only ever mean one thing would not be words. Fundamentalism is the paranoid condition of those who do not see that roughness is not a defect of human existence, but what makes it work. For them, it is as though we have to measure Everest down to the last millimetre if we are not to be completely stumped about how high it is. 1
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