RevTestament Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: For clarity, I never said or indicated that following the commandments was not a requirement for salvation. Like I said, "faith" is works and faith is required for salvation. My question was "Whose faith saves?" You see, the "grace" which Jesus Christ offers isn't just a single form of imputation where our sins are placed upon Him. His grace is a two-way imputation where our sins are placed upon Him, and in exchange His faith - His works and perfection - is given to us the moment of belief. That is how those who believe meet the "Be ye therefore perfect" requirement. Would you be willing to believe what the Bible plainly says? 1John 3:9 tells us those who are born again cannot sin. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Why would it be so difficult to believe that His perfection cleanses the soul from all sin? The body is still sinful, but the soul is washed clean from all sin (Romans 7:17). Yes, I believe the Bible, and what it is plainly saying to me is that those who are born of God are changed and abhor sin, so they do not intentionally commit it - not that some perfection is imputed to them so that they are as perfect as God, and can go around sinning, murdering, committing fornication, and yet be clean and perfect, because of Christ. That is the danger of your thinking - that is the conclusion it leads to. Paul makes this clear - that the person born of God can still sin, and must be wary of it. Romans 6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. No man is immune from sin except he that repents continually. He that is born of God will do so. Reading the text linearly like a Greek person, is not sufficient for understanding.
Anakin7 Posted July 3, 2018 Posted July 3, 2018 (edited) On July 2, 2018 at 9:07 AM, Anakin7 said: Responses to imputed Righteousness - From my Fellow non LDS, Saints, Christians, Sentinels, Sons Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warriors - http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/ConsequencesOfImputedRighteousness.htm http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/impute.html https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/esimputedrighteousness.htm From my Fellow LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder Kryptonian Brother in Christ Jesus Robert Boylan - http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/01/the-myth-of-imputed-righteousness-of.html http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/04/michael-flournoy-on-forensic.html The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Okay I fixed the links above that were not working that respond to FormerLDS statements. Edited July 3, 2018 by Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 On 7/2/2018 at 11:21 AM, RevTestament said: Yes, I believe the Bible, and what it is plainly saying to me is that those who are born of God are changed and abhor sin, so they do not intentionally commit it - not that some perfection is imputed to them so that they are as perfect as God, and can go around sinning, murdering, committing fornication, and yet be clean and perfect, because of Christ. That is the danger of your thinking - that is the conclusion it leads to. Paul makes this clear - that the person born of God can still sin, and must be wary of it. If you believe what the Bible plainly says, does 1 John 3:9 say "cannot sin" and "doth not commit sin" or does it say "are changed to abhor sin" or "do not intentionally commit it"? If you believe what the Bible plainly says, does Hebrews 10:14 say "some perfection is imputed" or does the Bible say "he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified"? Sinless perfection isn't an excuse to sin, as LDS claim we believe. Sinless perfection is the reason we love Him and try to obey His commandments. Romans 7:17 best explains Romans 6:1-2 "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."
Anakin7 Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 (edited) From my LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Archives response to Former LDS - http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/no-one-born-of-god-makes-a-practice-of-sinning The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Edited July 4, 2018 by Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 9 hours ago, Anakin7 said: From my LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Archives response to Former LDS - http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/no-one-born-of-god-makes-a-practice-of-sinning The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior With due respect to you Anakin7, I rarely ever read links people send. I'm much more interested in discussing your thoughts and opinions than reading the opinions of third parties.
Anakin7 Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 Just now, FormerLDS said: With due respect to you Anakin7, I rarely ever read links people send. I'm much more interested in Waldiscussing your thoughts and sharopinions than reading the opinions of third parties. With all due respect to you FormerLDS the links I share agree with True LDS Doctrine, Teaching, Thought, Practice, Walk ,Run, Journey. Sorry you cannot read them for they answer your polemical arrows darts.
RevTestament Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 13 hours ago, FormerLDS said: If you believe what the Bible plainly says, does 1 John 3:9 say "cannot sin" and "doth not commit sin" or does it say "are changed to abhor sin" or "do not intentionally commit it"? If you believe what the Bible plainly says, does Hebrews 10:14 say "some perfection is imputed" or does the Bible say "he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified"? Sinless perfection isn't an excuse to sin, as LDS claim we believe. Sinless perfection is the reason we love Him and try to obey His commandments. Romans 7:17 best explains Romans 6:1-2 "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." It is trying to communicate an idea using words which you take too literally, at the expense of other words from Paul. If you read all of Paul, you cannot take the literal meaning to mean what you do. Do you believe what Paul says elsewhere, or only where you quote him? I notice you ignore my prior quote - it doesn't conform to your interpretation. If you take your interpretation literally, once one accepted Christ they could have a change of heart and decide to go kill their neighbor, and yet be perfect forever. This is not what the scripture intends to communicate. Paul realizes Christians can fall away. He is trying to communicate the idea that as long as you are in Christ you are a changed man who will not sin, and will be perfect in Christ - not that you are incapable of committing sin. You are committing the "sin" of proof texting Paul. And since now you have taken to John as well, let me respond likewise with 1 John 3:1–10: See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil What you are doing with your proof texting is akin to what Satan did to tempt Christ by quoting scripture at Him. You have been deceived by slick scripture proof texting pastors, who do not teach continual righteousness, but excuse the flock to go about in continuing sin - not really be changed in Christ. It is a sad exegesis revealing the state of modern Christianity.
FormerLDS Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 9 minutes ago, RevTestament said: He is trying to communicate the idea that as long as you are in Christ you are a changed man who will not sin, and will be perfect in Christ - not that you are incapable of committing sin. So, in your opinion, if you are "in Christ" on the one hand, you "will not sin", yet on the other hand "not that you are incapable of committing sin". I must ask, do you sin? Regarding the text you provided, the King James Bible says "cannot sin" and that is the version I prefer and accept. I can find another version out there to demonstrate whatever doctrine that I want, but I don't do that. The BoM contains verbatim KJV and is the version used in the LDS cannon, so that is the accepted version that I will refer to. Do you define "cannot sin" to essentially mean "can sin"?
FormerLDS Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 36 minutes ago, Anakin7 said: With all due respect to you FormerLDS the links I share agree with True LDS Doctrine, Teaching, Thought, Practice, Walk ,Run, Journey. Sorry you cannot read them for they answer your polemical arrows darts. They are the opinions of Pastor John Piper.
Anakin7 Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 Yes there are other links above that are responses by others, not just by John Piper to your way of reading scripture and thinking. I would suggest you read scripture with an ancient middle eastern Heart and Mind, not a somewhat heretical post 16th century reformation reading. Well I must go out to celebrate 4th of July with my wife [who is a former Baptist like me along with her family, and whose Father was a baptist minister before he became a LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior]. May To Grace be with you and all you love. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior
RevTestament Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 3 hours ago, FormerLDS said: So, in your opinion, if you are "in Christ" on the one hand, you "will not sin", yet on the other hand "not that you are incapable of committing sin". I must ask, do you sin? Yes, I do. I am a rebellious servant for the natural man still battles inside me, and I must be forever vigilant and repentant. I do not intentionally sin. I am born again, yet for a time I fell away into a life of sin. Just like any other Christian can. To believe otherwise is unscriptural. Consider the parable of the prodigal son, or the parable of the talents. Quote Regarding the text you provided, the King James Bible says "cannot sin" and that is the version I prefer and accept. I can find another version out there to demonstrate whatever doctrine that I want, but I don't do that. The BoM contains verbatim KJV and is the version used in the LDS cannon, so that is the accepted version that I will refer to. Do you define "cannot sin" to essentially mean "can sin"? 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil. Of course you prefer the English translation which most closely says what you want it to say. You are not interested in the intent of what is trying to be communicated over the sum total of scripture. Like I said it is a sad exegesis. I don't think there is much way to reconcile what John is saying with your interpretation of Paul. Those who know what sin is, even if they have accepted Christ, and been born again, can sin. And if they do sin and turn away from God, they become children of the devil according to John. Anyone who makes a practice of sinning is doing the work of the devil, and is no longer in Christ.
FormerLDS Posted July 5, 2018 Posted July 5, 2018 3 hours ago, RevTestament said: Yes, I do. I am a rebellious servant for the natural man still battles inside me, and I must be forever vigilant and repentant. I do not intentionally sin. I am born again, yet for a time I fell away into a life of sin. Just like any other Christian can. To believe otherwise is unscriptural. Consider the parable of the prodigal son, or the parable of the talents. So your sin was not done intentionally. Interesting. Can you give me an example of one of these unintentional sins that you unknowingly committed?
RevTestament Posted July 5, 2018 Posted July 5, 2018 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: So your sin was not done intentionally. Interesting. Can you give me an example of one of these unintentional sins that you unknowingly committed? Back when I fell into a life of sin, the sins were quite conscious on my part. I don't now intentionally sin, although in order to love your fellow man, what some may feel is sin, others may not. If I say something in jest, I may offend someone unintentionally. Some may not be offended at all. If I did not offend them, did I sin? However, if I did offend them did I sin? I answer the latter in the affirmative. That is an example of an unintentional sin I think. I may need to approach that person, and ask for forgiveness once I know I have offended them.
FormerLDS Posted July 5, 2018 Posted July 5, 2018 12 hours ago, RevTestament said: Back when I fell into a life of sin, the sins were quite conscious on my part. I don't now intentionally sin, although in order to love your fellow man, what some may feel is sin, others may not. If I say something in jest, I may offend someone unintentionally. Some may not be offended at all. If I did not offend them, did I sin? However, if I did offend them did I sin? I answer the latter in the affirmative. That is an example of an unintentional sin I think. I may need to approach that person, and ask for forgiveness once I know I have offended them. "Sin" means you intentionally, willingly broke one of God's commandments. There isn't a commandment that says "Thou shalt not ever offend anyone", so inadvertently offending someone isn't a sin. "Sin" means you know to do right, but you intentionally choose to do wrong. For example, telling a lie, loving the world or the things in the world, coveting, keeping the Sabbath day holy, lust, "be ye therefore perfect", "rejoice always", "pray without ceasing", in everything give thanks", etc... You're saying you never break any of these (or hundreds of others)? Ever??
RevTestament Posted July 5, 2018 Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, FormerLDS said: "Sin" means you intentionally, willingly broke one of God's commandments. There isn't a commandment that says "Thou shalt not ever offend anyone", so inadvertently offending someone isn't a sin. "Sin" means you know to do right, but you intentionally choose to do wrong. For example, telling a lie, loving the world or the things in the world, coveting, keeping the Sabbath day holy, lust, "be ye therefore perfect", "rejoice always", "pray without ceasing", in everything give thanks", etc... You're saying you never break any of these (or hundreds of others)? Ever?? I don't know that it is a commandment to give thanks in everything. And no, I haven't. For instance I planned to have a garage, and feel the Lord made it financially impossible for me. I am not thankful for that. In fact after 20 years of that, I am rather tired of it - watching everyone else get financially blessed. So if I am sinning, in that I don't know that I will ever stop. As I said I am a rebellious servant. But elsewise, I guess I hold myself to a higher standard than you, as I feel that to love my neighbor, I should not offend them in jest - although I know I have from time to time. Yeshua said to go with your neighbor the extra mile, lest you offend him. How about you? Do you sin? Edited July 5, 2018 by RevTestament
Ahab Posted July 5, 2018 Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I don't know that it is a commandment to give thanks in everything. And no, I haven't. For instance I planned to have a garage, and feel the Lord made it financially impossible for me. I am not thankful for that. In fact after 20 years of that, I am rather tired of it - watching everyone else get financially blessed. So if I am sinning, in that I don't know that I will ever stop. As I said I am a rebellious servant. What makes you think it was the Lord who made it financially impossible for you to have a garage? I give credit to God for all GOOD things. Credit for the bad stuff I give to either Satan or myself when I do a bad thing or the worldly economic systems that are generally influenced by Satan more than God. Btw, I hope to someday have a woodshop garage, a second garage in addition to the garage I have attached to my house. I have lots of property and plenty of room for it, and I even have the design all figured out like I want it. I don't know if I'll be able to get it built before I retire but I sure do hope so. If not it will be one of the most important items on my bucket list that I will feel sad about if I don't ever get it. I still have time and for now I just keep hoping, and planning, and doing whatever I can to make it happen. I have about 13 more years before I plan to retire, so it could conceivably happen. In the grand scheme of things I know it's not that big of a deal. And yes I'm also looking at neighbors with a lot more than I have, usually because both husband and wife are working while my wife is a stay at home homemaker. THAT is something I do not feel bad about, though. I'm glad I am able to make enough for us to live on without her having to go outside of our home to work. She is a wonderful homemaker and she adds a lot of value to the quality of my and our life. I just try to help her however I can. Quote But elsewise, I guess I hold myself to a higher standard than you, as I feel that to love my neighbor, I should not offend them in jest - although I know I have from time to time. Yeshua said to go with your neighbor the extra mile, lest you offend him. I have some neighbors who are hornery, on purpose, sometimes and to them it's like a game. They don't mean to offend, so I am not offended. I don't play that game though, or at least not very well, and would rather just try to be nice to everybody. I don't like how I feel when I get mean or angry at someone. I prefer to be a nice guy. Edited July 5, 2018 by Ahab
HappyJackWagon Posted July 5, 2018 Posted July 5, 2018 On 6/22/2018 at 9:50 PM, Robert F. Smith said: I disagree. In my experience, very few Mormons actually have any inkling of the place of works in the Divine Plan. It is only within the last few decades that the Brethren and some of the intellectual elite in Mormonism have taken to saying that we are save by grace (faith) alone. This has been especially true under the influence of Bob Millett. Moreover, when Mormons are accused by the anti-Mormons of believing that they are saved by works, they usually don't know what to say. Indeed, your initial post did not even hint at the place of works, nor of the need to consciously accept the Gospel. Instead, you seemed to be saying that the Atonement happened, and that is the end of it. I recently watched the documentary about Fred (Mr.) Rogers. Towards the end there were many criticisms raised about him. There were even protesters at his funeral. Most people know that he was an ordained minister but many were upset about his overarching teaching that every child has value and that no one has to do anything extraordinary to have value. We all have worth, no matter what we do or do not do. Critics cite this philosophy as the driving force of the "snowflake" mentality where every person feels that they are special. In the final commencement speech he gave he answered the criticism by reemphasizing that every person has worth and is of great value regardless of what they do or what they accomplish. He felt this message was important for the world to hear. I mention this because I see a parallel between opposition to Mr Rogers philosophy and the teaching that we are saved by grace alone. It's as if that feels too easy so there must be some kind of a caveat thrown in..."after all we can do". In the church there is so much emphasis on works and worthiness that it is no wonder to me that people don't know what to say when accused of believing in works in addition to grace. I think that's a valid criticism. No person's works will ever have the power to save themselves. No person's works will ever have the power to resurrect themselves. It is only through grace that those things are accomplished. IMO- we don't need to prove our worth to qualify for the love and care of heavenly parents. Whether arguing about grace verses works or the inherent value of a child, I think the answer is the same. 1
FormerLDS Posted July 6, 2018 Posted July 6, 2018 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: I don't know that it is a commandment to give thanks in everything. And no, I haven't. For instance I planned to have a garage, and feel the Lord made it financially impossible for me. I am not thankful for that. In fact after 20 years of that, I am rather tired of it - watching everyone else get financially blessed. So if I am sinning, in that I don't know that I will ever stop. As I said I am a rebellious servant. Do you believe that 1 Thessalonians 5:18 commands us to give thanks in everything? "In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you." You've never read this? How about the other commandments I mentioned? You've never been guilty of telling a lie, loving the world or the things in the world, coveting, keeping the Sabbath day holy, lust, "be ye therefore perfect", "rejoice always", "pray without ceasing", etc... 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: How about you? Do you sin? I have a sinful body that will pay the penalty of sin, but inwardly, I have a perfect and sinless soul that has eternal life and been washed clean by the power of the blood of Jesus Christ and cannot sin. I have an old, sinful man and a new, sinless inward man.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 6, 2018 Posted July 6, 2018 5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: I recently watched the documentary about Fred (Mr.) Rogers. Towards the end there were many criticisms raised about him. There were even protesters at his funeral. Most people know that he was an ordained minister but many were upset about his overarching teaching that every child has value and that no one has to do anything extraordinary to have value. We all have worth, no matter what we do or do not do. Critics cite this philosophy as the driving force of the "snowflake" mentality where every person feels that they are special. In the final commencement speech he gave he answered the criticism by reemphasizing that every person has worth and is of great value regardless of what they do or what they accomplish. He felt this message was important for the world to hear. I mention this because I see a parallel between opposition to Mr Rogers philosophy and the teaching that we are saved by grace alone. It's as if that feels too easy so there must be some kind of a caveat thrown in..."after all we can do". In the church there is so much emphasis on works and worthiness that it is no wonder to me that people don't know what to say when accused of believing in works in addition to grace. I think that's a valid criticism. No person's works will ever have the power to save themselves. No person's works will ever have the power to resurrect themselves. It is only through grace that those things are accomplished. IMO- we don't need to prove our worth to qualify for the love and care of heavenly parents. Whether arguing about grace verses works or the inherent value of a child, I think the answer is the same. Yes, Rogers' teaching method was profound, and the children understood and appreciated it, even if some adults did not. God sees inherent worth in all of us. Both Judaism and Christianity claim that we are saved by grace alone. The caveat is that we must avail ourselves of it. Willingly. There is the noble offer, but there must also be an acceptance -- at least among those old enough to know what that means. God forces no one to be saved. Not Satan, and not you and me. It is our choice. Reading "after all we can do" out of context leads to a complete misunderstanding of that. 1
Anakin7 Posted July 6, 2018 Posted July 6, 2018 FormerLDS your salvation soteriological comments read very gnostic and manicheanistic - as a response - http://biblicaltruthresources.wordpress.com/2013/08/06/is-our-flesh--sinful-is-the-human-body-a-sin-the-heresy-of-gnosticism-manicheanism-refuted-by-jesse-morrell// The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior
Anakin7 Posted July 6, 2018 Posted July 6, 2018 As a follow up I asked a evangelical christian I work with who's faith saves us, Jesus or us ?, my christian friend said us. The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior
FormerLDS Posted July 6, 2018 Posted July 6, 2018 10 hours ago, Anakin7 said: FormerLDS your salvation soteriological comments read very gnostic and manicheanistic - as a response - Although not my salvation, it is also very narrow-minded as well. Might even say there is only one way, one truth and one life.
FormerLDS Posted July 6, 2018 Posted July 6, 2018 10 hours ago, Anakin7 said: As a follow up I asked a evangelical christian I work with who's faith saves us, Jesus or us ?, my christian friend said us. Yes, there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding faith in the evangelical community of believers It's likely your friend was referring to "belief" as opposed to "faith".
Anakin7 Posted July 6, 2018 Posted July 6, 2018 (edited) Just now, FormerLDS said: Although not my salvation, it is also very narrow-minded as well. Might even say there is only one way, one truth and one life. Still your writings and statements read as the above referenced christian heresies of times past. Edited July 6, 2018 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted July 6, 2018 Posted July 6, 2018 (edited) Just now, FormerLDS said: Yes, there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding faith in the evangelical community of believers It's likely your friend was referring to "belief" as opposed to "faith". Hundreds of millions of Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Reformed, Non Denominational !. No my friend was referring to "Faith". Edited July 6, 2018 by Anakin7
Recommended Posts