Why and How do we misunderstand the Atonement, like we do?

[RevTestament]

On a different thread the other day, I said if there is no forgiveness, there is no atonement.

Comments?

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

The point of the class was not only to understand the atonement, but the roll of how Jesus Christ "brings to pass the immortality and eternal life of man". One being already done for all, the other requiring our efforts, on behalf of ourselves and others. 

I think that we are on the same page.

Glenn

[Glenn101]

44 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

On a different thread the other day, I said if there is no forgiveness, there is no atonement.

Comments?

With or without repentance???

Glenn

[RevTestament]

16 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

With or without repentance???

Glenn

When we repent, we are seeking what? 

By what does forgiveness come?

I believe through the atonement. Without the atonement there is no power to forgive is my point. Yeshua made the atonement so He could take upon Himself this power. This commitment is why the Father gave Him the power to forgive sin.

Forgiveness is central to the atonement, and is through the grace of Christ. Paul's point is we cannot access it by works. We are forgiven ie saved by grace. This is the light by which I understand what Paul teaches. Does that help with my query about comments? 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I think that we are on the same page.

Glenn

Agreed, and thank you brother. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

When we repent, we are seeking what? 

By what does forgiveness come?

I believe through the atonement. Without the atonement there is no power to forgive is my point. Yeshua made the atonement so He could take upon Himself this power. This commitment is why the Father gave Him the power to forgive sin.

Forgiveness is central to the atonement, and is through the grace of Christ. Paul's point is we cannot access it by works. We are forgiven ie saved by grace. This is the light by which I understand what Paul teaches. Does that help with my query about comments? 

Yeshua, or Joshua (the name I gave my first son) is the name by which we are saved. Yeshua, or Joshua is Jesus in Greek or Latan. It would be odd to be called "The Church of Joshua Christ of Latter-day Saints". But it would also be accurate, but by either name is how and why we are saved. Paul's teaching was attempting to make clear that without the atonement or grace, nothing we do, no works would matter. We are not saved by works, but as believers we are commanded to do the works of righteousness. Works are what we do to receive the rewards of exaltation. Works and Grace, are two sides of the same coin, and it is that coin that allows us to receive all that God has promised. It is that "coin" whereby we become, "joint heirs with Jesus Christ". The lesson I was asked to give, should have a part two, to teach us the role that "works" play in our salvation, as they play a very important role. Truly, we can never so enough, be perfect enough, but we must do all we can, and the grace of God, through repentance will fill in the gaps and errors, making us worthy to enter into his presence.. 

[Glenn101]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

When we repent, we are seeking what? 

By what does forgiveness come?

I believe through the atonement. Without the atonement there is no power to forgive is my point. Yeshua made the atonement so He could take upon Himself this power. This commitment is why the Father gave Him the power to forgive sin.

Forgiveness is central to the atonement, and is through the grace of Christ. Paul's point is we cannot access it by works. We are forgiven ie saved by grace. This is the light by which I understand what Paul teaches. Does that help with my query about comments? 

This is what I understand about grace. Salvation from death is unconditional and provided to all who kept their first estate. The atonement for sins is universal/infinite both in time and scope, is accessible to all, but can only be accessed through the principles and ordinances of faith (in the Lord, Jesus Christ), repentance, and baptism.

Glenn

[Hamba Tuhan]

20 hours ago, RevTestament said:

By what does forgiveness come?

I believe through the atonement. Without the atonement there is no power to forgive is my point. Yeshua made the atonement so He could take upon Himself this power.

There are some serious implications in the above. I think most of us understand intuitively that withholding our forgiveness from another is such a serious sin, one repeatedly condemned in scripture, because it is an attempt to deny the blessings of the Atonement to those who have wronged us.

But do we grasp how thoroughly the power to forgive depends upon the mediation of the Son. No Atonement = no forgiveness. At all. Mercy, after all, cannot rob justice.

We are able to forgive one another only because Jesus paid the price. Each time a person says, 'That's OK; I forgive you', it is an extension of His Atonement -- one we have access to only because the Son satisfied all of justice's demands and thereby took upon Himself the power of forgiveness for the good of all.

In our sacrament meeting today, we sang the following words: 'That sacred, holy off'ring, / By man least understood'. Indeed.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

There are some serious implications in the above. I think most of us understand intuitively that withholding our forgiveness from another is such a serious sin, one repeatedly condemned in scripture, because it is an attempt to deny the blessings of the Atonement to those who have wronged us.

But do we grasp how thoroughly the power to forgive depends upon the mediation of the Son. No Atonement = no forgiveness. At all. Mercy, after all, cannot rob justice.

We are able to forgive one another only because Jesus paid the price. Each time a person says, 'That's OK; I forgive you', it is an extension of His Atonement -- one we have access to only because the Son satisfied all of justice's demands and thereby took upon Himself the power of forgiveness for the good of all.

In our sacrament meeting today, we sang the following words: 'That sacred, holy off'ring, / By man least understood'. Indeed.

Thanks for your thoughts, but I'm not sure you quite understand my position - probably because I did not fully explain it. I view the atonement as the power to forgive and accept punishment on the behalf of others. However, you are apparently also saying that I cannot forgive my neighbor for weed whipping down my clematis without the atonement. Here, I have to disagree. If I choose to forgive my neighbor, how is justice robbed? I am the one who would be seeking justice. If I do not seek justice, how will a penalty be affixed? Without a complaint there is no justice to be had. 

Now where the atonement comes in is for my neighbor. What if he apologizes, but I demand payment for my prize clematis, which he cannot pay? He now needs a third party to be forgiven for his sin. Without the atonement Yeshua does not have the power to be that third party, but I don't believe I need the atonement to forgive my neighbor instead of demanding payment. Forgiveness satiates the debt. My neighbor can now go to God, and say "I was forgiven for that sin or of that payment."  Men certainly can forgive one another. But the atonement calls them to. For if God forgives them, He calls them to also forgive. By this means they take part in the atonement.

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 hours ago, RevTestament said:

If I choose to forgive my neighbor, how is justice robbed? I am the one who would be seeking justice. If I do not seek justice, how will a penalty be affixed? Without a complaint there is no justice to be had. 

Now where the atonement comes in is for my neighbor. What if he apologizes, but I demand payment for my prize clematis, which he cannot pay? He now needs a third party to be forgiven for his sin.

So are you saying that things are not wrong per se but only if a victim complains? So your neighbour has no cause to feel bad for her/his actions as long as you tell her/him not to worry about it? In essence, unless you complain, no wrong was even done. What if your neighbour destroys your prize clematis, but you don't know who did it and therefore can't demand payment. Does that person still have cause to feel guilt?

I'll await your responses, but if I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that we can exempt sins from those covered by the otherwise infinite Atonement -- that the Saviour didn't actually suffer the penalty for all wrongdoing, and that it is our unwillingness to just forgive one another that caused Him to suffer at all, not the actual commission of the sins itself.

And if that is the case -- i.e., if we can forgive freely without the need for mediation, thereby removing certain acts from the requirements of an Atonement -- why does not that same freedom extend to the Father? Why can't He just say, 'No worries, mate', to us without the need to satisfy the demands of justice first? Why doesn't His desire to forgive simply 'satiate the debt'?

Edited June 25, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[FormerLDS]

On 6/22/2018 at 1:30 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

1. "Are we saved by Grace alone"?I asked this question to point out that as often (for those not of our Faith), we try to over explain our views on this topic, leading many to believe that we reject one of the most fundamental doctrines of Christian theology. Since most said or shook their head "no", I moved on to question number two.    

"Are we saved by Grace alone?" 

Unfortunately, like so many other LDS doctrines, the honest answer to this question should be:

*YES!!!!!

(* Actual answer depends on whether or not you're already a member of the church)

LDS "Salvation" is like a celestial ladder with a hundred rungs, LDS "Grace" means if you climb the first rung, then Jesus Christ will carry you up the remaining 99.   You do your part and He does His part.

The difference between LDS "Grace" and the grace of Jesus Christ is sufficiency.  Because His grace is sufficient, Jesus Christ carries you up all 100 rungs of the ladder the moment you believe upon Him and THAT is what evangelical non-members mean by "Grace alone".  Grace without any works.     

LDS "Grace" is not sufficient, but the Grace of Jesus Christ is sufficient.

The very definition of LDS "Grace" plainly tells anyone that grace alone "cannot suffice" and you are not saved by grace alone:

Conversely, Jesus Christ plainly tells us in 2 Corinthians 12:9 "My grace is sufficient for thee".  

LDS grace alone cannot suffice, but the grace of Jesus Christ is completely sufficient.

Hebrews 10:14 confirms that those who are sanctified are also perfected forever.

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."  

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

"Are we saved by Grace alone?" 

Unfortunately, like so many other LDS doctrines, the honest answer to this question should be:

*YES!!!!!

 

Conversely, Jesus Christ plainly tells us in 2 Corinthians 12:9 "My grace is sufficient for thee".  

LDS grace alone cannot suffice, but the grace of Jesus Christ is completely sufficient.

Hebrews 10:14 confirms that those who are sanctified are also perfected forever.

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."  

 

I am glad you got some of that off your chest, however quoted snippets of scripture in an attempt to define all of Christian theology, is very short cited. I will give you an example, now this comes from memory, so forgive if I do not quote it exactly.

"Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is heaven". Matthew 7: 21. These are the words of Jesus Christ himself from the "sermon on the mount". They are not from any epistles of the pics of grace, works, etc. 

Jesus Christ, as well as all the Apostles taught the proper role of "Grace", and that of obiedence. You are either leaving out much of what is taught throughout the Bible concerning exaltation and the rewards given to use because of "grace and works". Even the Apostles Paul who was the most liberal of all writers of the NT, lists in the Book of Galatians, the many sins, and lack of works that despite Grace, will keep us all "out" of the "Kingdom of Heaven". Did you mean to leave this information out, including my answer to this question, or was it just an oversight? Because no matter how misunderstood the entire role of Grace is understood in LDS Wards and Stakes, it pales in comparison to the woeful, "I need do nothing view of Grace" that exists in the Ecangelical Churches the world over. Even "believing and coming unto Jesus Christ as Savior", is a work, is a commandment. Therefore suggesting Jesus Christ does 100%, in the way that you did, is what "snippets of scripture" will get you, instead of the scriptures as a whole. 

 

[FormerLDS]

11 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I am glad you got some of that off your chest, however quoted snippets of scripture in an attempt to define all of Christian theology, is very short cited. I will give you an example, now this comes from memory, so forgive if I do not quote it exactly.

"Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is heaven". Matthew 7: 21. These are the words of Jesus Christ himself from the "sermon on the mount". They are not from any epistles of the pics of grace, works, etc. 

Jesus Christ, as well as all the Apostles taught the proper role of "Grace", and that of obiedence. You are either leaving out much of what is taught throughout the Bible concerning exaltation and the rewards given to use because of "grace and works". Even the Apostles Paul who was the most liberal of all writers of the NT, lists in the Book of Galatians, the many sins, and lack of works that despite Grace, will keep us all "out" of the "Kingdom of Heaven". Did you mean to leave this information out, including my answer to this question, or was it just an oversight? Because no matter how misunderstood the entire role of Grace is understood in LDS Wards and Stakes, it pales in comparison to the woeful, "I need do nothing view of Grace" that exists in the Ecangelical Churches the world over. Even "believing and coming unto Jesus Christ as Savior", is a work, is a commandment. Therefore suggesting Jesus Christ does 100%, in the way that you did, is what "snippets of scripture" will get you, instead of the scriptures as a whole. 

The rejected of the savior in Matthew chapter 7 are an excellent example of the true grace of Jesus Christ and illustrate the point outlined above very well.

"Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is heaven". Matthew 7: 21

Latter-day Saints associate the phrase "he that doeth the will of my Father" with obeying the commandments (our own works of obedience and personal worthiness), but in John 6:40, Jesus Christ plainly tells us what the "will of my Father" is for those whom He does not know:

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." 

The "will of my Father" for those whom He does not know is that we believe upon Jesus Christ and receive eternal life!  It's right there in black and white people.

So, why then were the rejected of the Savior turned away?  They performed miraculous works in the name of Jesus Christ.  They cast out demons and prophesied and did works no Mormon has ever done all in the name of Jesus Christ.  Clearly they believed upon Jesus Christ.  Surely, like the Pharisees, they were righteous, and obeyed the commandments with sincerity and diligence.  Yet they were rejected.  Why?

Even though they believed upon Jesus Christ as their Savior, their faith in their own worthiness voided out the saving Grace of Jesus Christ.  They did not have eternal life - His life within them.

Our works - our attempts at obeying the commandments actually void out His Grace!  Romans 11:6 plainly tells us this:

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

If eternal life is even .000001% by our works, then Grace is completely voided out.  That's why they were rejected.  Satan is able to trick Latter-day Saints into voiding Grace by getting them to think their own worthiness will assist Grace.

The truth is, if eternal life is given as a gift by grace then it must be 100% by grace or else "grace is no more grace".

Friends, you can have eternal life today if you would choose to believe in the words of Jesus Christ and allow His grace and His life to be a free gift.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."  John 6:47

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

The rejected of the savior in Matthew chapter 7 are an excellent example of the true grace of Jesus Christ and illustrate the point outlined above very well.

"Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is heaven". Matthew 7: 21

Latter-day Saints associate the phrase "he that doeth the will of my Father" with obeying the commandments (our own works of obedience and personal worthiness), but in John 6:40, Jesus Christ plainly tells us what the "will of my Father" is for those whom He does not know:

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." 

The "will of my Father" for those whom He does not know is that we believe upon Jesus Christ and receive eternal life!  It's right there in black and white people.

So, why then were the rejected of the Savior turned away?  They performed miraculous works in the name of Jesus Christ.  They cast out demons and prophesied and did works no Mormon has ever done all in the name of Jesus Christ.  Clearly they believed upon Jesus Christ.  Surely, like the Pharisees, they were righteous, and obeyed the commandments with sincerity and diligence.  Yet they were rejected.  Why?

Even though they believed upon Jesus Christ as their Savior, their faith in their own worthiness voided out the saving Grace of Jesus Christ.  They did not have eternal life - His life within them.

Our works - our attempts at obeying the commandments actually void out His Grace!  Romans 11:6 plainly tells us this:

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

If eternal life is even .000001% by our works, then Grace is completely voided out.  That's why they were rejected.  Satan is able to trick Latter-day Saints into voiding Grace by getting them to think their own worthiness will assist Grace.

The truth is, if eternal life is given as a gift by grace then it must be 100% by grace or else "grace is no more grace".

Friends, you can have eternal life today if you would choose to believe in the words of Jesus Christ and allow His grace and His life to be a free gift.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."  John 6:47

No one love dualing scriptures more than I do. I pointed to this to illustrate the danger of trying to sum up the entire Bible with a few scriptures. I know what Latter-day Saints believe, but you are speaking to me, not the whole of LDS theology. However this post is an over simplification of our beliefs. Simply put, to use you logic, John 3: 16, states that, "whosoever believeth in him SHOULD (not shall) have everlasting life". Simply put not all who simply believe in Christ will automatically have "everlasting life". Are you even going to admit, that to receive this free gift, (and it is free) one must first perform the work of believing, repenting, obeying his charge to do so?   

[FormerLDS]

36 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

No one love dualing scriptures more than I do. I pointed to this to illustrate the danger of trying to sum up the entire Bible with a few scriptures. I know what Latter-day Saints believe, but you are speaking to me, not the whole of LDS theology. However this post is an over simplification of our beliefs. Simply put, to use you logic, John 3: 16, states that, "whosoever believeth in him SHOULD (not shall) have everlasting life". Simply put not all who simply believe in Christ will automatically have "everlasting life". 

Looking at the phrase "should not" can certainly mean at some point in the future, but there are many times when Jesus Christ and the Bible plainly use the word "have" in the present-tense as well when referring to eternal life.

Why does Jesus Christ plainly say you can have eternal life right now?

1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Are you even going to admit, that to receive this free gift, (and it is free) one must first perform the work of believing, repenting, obeying his charge to do so?   

What is a "gift"?

gift

ɡift/

noun

Something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation 

 

If obedience, doing all that you can do and being perfect is required, how can that be a "gift"?

Wouldn't that change it into a "reward"?

re·ward

rəˈwôrd/

noun      

      A thing given in recognition of one's service, effort, or achievement.

When works are added to Grace, not only do those works cancel out Grace, then change the free gift into a reward of debt.  Romans 4:4 plainly tells us this:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

Works completely nullify Grace.

Knowing that works completely void out Grace, we must ask "Is belief a work?" since belief is required after all.

The very next verse tells gives us the answer very plainly:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Belief and works are opposites of each other.  Belief is simply a decision you make about something.  The word of God assures us that God doesn't consider belief to be a work.

[Maestrophil]

I hope this is not a derail.  I get the Atonement as well as a puny brain can - what I struggle with, is the real why of it.  Why would God require such a sacrifice to grant forgiveness?

 

The only explanation that I have heard that I can somewhat comprehend, but still struggle with - is that God is bound by the eternal law of justice.  He HAD to have an atonement according to this explanation to satisfy justice.  This makes some sense, but then makes me question my understanding of God as omnipotent.  

Thoughts?

[Joe]

If we are saved by grace (which I believe) then why do we use the term "saving ordinances"? That term makes me cringe the more I learn about grace. I have been unable to fully reconcile it in my heart and mind.

By the way, I've been a member of the church for 30+ years, and have only recently began to understand what the atonement is. It has changed me, and continues to do so. I have overcome things I know I could not have done on my own. 

I have talked intimately with many long term members of the church, and there is indeed a great misunderstanding about the atonement. I've been saying this for years and encouraging my local leaders to teach about it more often.

I am encouraged by recent talks in general conference by the apostles on grace, but I wonder how our church lost touch with such a monumentally important aspect of the gospel. In my opinion, grace IS the gospel of Jesus Christ. 

 

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Looking at the phrase "should not" can certainly mean at some point in the future, but there are many times when Jesus Christ and the Bible plainly use the word "have" in the present-tense as well when referring to eternal life.

Why does Jesus Christ plainly say you can have eternal life right now?

What is a "gift"?

gift

ɡift/

noun

Something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation 

 

If obedience, doing all that you can do and being perfect is required, how can that be a "gift"?

Wouldn't that change it into a "reward"?

re·ward

rəˈwôrd/

noun      

      A thing given in recognition of one's service, effort, or achievement.

When works are added to Grace, not only do those works cancel out Grace, then change the free gift into a reward of debt.  Romans 4:4 plainly tells us this:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

Works completely nullify Grace.

Knowing that works completely void out Grace, we must ask "Is belief a work?" since belief is required after all.

The very next verse tells gives us the answer very plainly:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Belief and works are opposites of each other.  Belief is simply a decision you make about something.  The word of God assures us that God doesn't consider belief to be a work.

You a running the risk of sounding like a evangelical pamphlet, instead of having a dialogue. No Mormon here (none have I met any) believes they can, or, are capable of saving themselves. "FormerLDS", it seems as if you were on the dock, but missed the boat. I am happy you found Jesus elsewhere, but alas he was always here, and will remain the central focus of our Christian Faith. This is not "the board not to be named", where you can just ignore every question and receive endless high fives, here we seek dialogue, not endless demagogy. 

[FormerLDS]

1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

You a running the risk of sounding like a evangelical pamphlet, instead of having a dialogue. No Mormon here (none have I met any) believes they can, or, are capable of saving themselves. "FormerLDS", it seems as if you were on the dock, but missed the boat. I am happy you found Jesus elsewhere, but alas he was always here, and will remain the central focus of our Christian Faith. This is not "the board not to be named", where you can just ignore every question and receive endless high fives, here we seek dialogue, not endless demagogy. 

So rather than actual dialogue where you try to explain the obvious disparity between LDS theology and what Jesus Christ plainly says, you prefer to question my integrity, capability and legitimacy.  Hey, I'd probably do the same thing given the inconsistency predicament.  

You mentioned that "No Mormon here (none have I met any) believes they can, or, are capable of saving themselves."

As I'm sure you know, in LDS theology, sometimes truths and principles are stated clearly and sometimes they are implied.    

President Monson clarifies LDS duty best:

The atonement isn't the only misunderstanding... 

[Anakin7]

    We stay in His [Jesus Christ] Awesome Atoning Blood sacrifice [Grace] on our behalf by True Faith - pistis = allegiance, commitment, confidence, dedication, devotion, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience, trust to the person and work of Christ Jesus = By True Grace Alone Through True Faith Alone. There is no once saved always saved in Holy Writ. We keep ourselves Saved by the afore mentioned salvation soteriological formula as understood within the Heavenly Jerusalem in the Kingdom of God The Father The Monarch of The Universe, God The Son Jesus Christ The Vice Monarch of The Universe, God The Holy Ghost Spirit The Awesome Sanctifier/Testator of The Universe, Archangels, Angels, Righteousness, Truth.  We save ourselves as we accept, access, activate, grab hold of, obtain, receive,  hold on to Christ Jesus True Grace . We are saving ourselves from this outward generation Acts 2:40.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine, Washing my Garment/Robe In His Blood, In his Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7, LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Anakin7

[FormerLDS]

9 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

    We stay in His [Jesus Christ] Awesome Atoning Blood sacrifice [Grace] on our behalf by True Faith - pistis = allegiance, commitment, confidence, dedication, devotion, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience, trust to the person and work of Christ Jesus = By True Grace Alone Through True Faith Alone.

I really like the way you phrased this Anakin7.  We are saved by Grace through faith and "faith" clearly refers to works as you pointed out. 

Now, according to the Bible, whose faith can save someone:  Man's faith or the faith of Jesus Christ?

[RevTestament]

On 6/29/2018 at 6:51 AM, FormerLDS said:

I really like the way you phrased this Anakin7.  We are saved by Grace through faith and "faith" clearly refers to works as you pointed out. 

Now, according to the Bible, whose faith can save someone:  Man's faith or the faith of Jesus Christ?

This debate really gets old. It is fairly obvious that to be forgiven even Yeshua expected people to try to make whole those they had wronged. If you offend them, make extra effort to not make them angry or to have cause against you. These can all be described as work. Paul is merely describing the means by which forgiveness comes - which is grace. Not even Paul says "hey, don't worry about not following the commandments to be saved." You see, God nor Yeshua look kindly upon intentional sin - that implies not actually believing on Him. So following the commandments is definitely a part of one's salvation. The attempts of some modern Christians to teach the unimportance of the commandments, and that "saved people" cannot sin is trickery and deception and will lead one to hell. While I'm sure it may feel exhilarating to  feel impervious to sin, it is a smokescreen used by Satan to cause Christians to fall. You are not doing anyone any favors. 

[FormerLDS]

On 7/1/2018 at 9:14 AM, RevTestament said:

This debate really gets old. It is fairly obvious that to be forgiven even Yeshua expected people to try to make whole those they had wronged. If you offend them, make extra effort to not make them angry or to have cause against you. These can all be described as work. Paul is merely describing the means by which forgiveness comes - which is grace. Not even Paul says "hey, don't worry about not following the commandments to be saved." You see, God nor Yeshua look kindly upon intentional sin - that implies not actually believing on Him. So following the commandments is definitely a part of one's salvation. 

For clarity, I never said or indicated that following the commandments was not a requirement for salvation.

Like I said, "faith" is works and faith is required for salvation.

My question was "Whose faith saves?"  You see, the "grace" which Jesus Christ offers isn't just a single form of imputation where our sins are placed upon Him.  His grace is a two-way imputation where our sins are placed upon Him, and in exchange His faith - His works and perfection - is given to us the moment of belief.

That is how those who believe meet the "Be ye therefore perfect" requirement.  

On 7/1/2018 at 9:14 AM, RevTestament said:

The attempts of some modern Christians to teach the unimportance of the commandments, and that "saved people" cannot sin is trickery and deception and will lead one to hell. While I'm sure it may feel exhilarating to  feel impervious to sin, it is a smokescreen used by Satan to cause Christians to fall. You are not doing anyone any favors. 

Would you be willing to believe what the Bible plainly says?

1John 3:9 tells us those who are born again cannot sin.  "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Why would it be so difficult to believe that His perfection cleanses the soul from all sin?  The body is still sinful, but the soul is washed clean from all sin (Romans 7:17).

[Anakin7]

On June 29, 2018 at 6:51 AM, FormerLDS said:

I really like the way you phrased this Anakin7.  We are saved by Grace through faith and "faith" clearly refers to works as you pointed out. 

Now, according to the Bible, whose faith can save someone:  Man's faith or the faith of Jesus Christ?

    FormerLDS, sorry I have been really busy with with my True Grace Empowered works [ Labors of Love of the New Covenant that I have entered into some time ago]  in my Worship of God The Father, In The Name of God The Son Christ Jesus, by way of God The Holy Ghost/Spirit in Church and my Daily walk here on Earth. Thank you for your agreement on the ancient middle eastern understanding of "True Faith" as understood by the Hearts and Minds of those in Holy writ that lived in the middle east so long ago. As to whose "Faith Saves" I believe that in reading Holy Writ [Holy Bible] of The New Testament [Covenant] I see with my Spiritual/Heart/Eyes that The Lord of Life/Lord/Redeemer/Savior/God/King/Master Christ Jesus, Peter - The Prophet and Head of The Quorum of The !2 Apostles, James The Lords Brother, John the Apostle who was Loved by Christ Jesus and Paul That our Faith must be "In Christ". Please read https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/faith-in-christ-or-faithfulness-of-christ/   https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/faith-in-christ-or-faithfulness-of-christ-whats-the-difference/    https://www.gotquestions.org/faith-in-Jesus.html    https://www.openbible.info/topics/faith_in_jesus  .   I have also asked a # of My non LDS evangelical christian friends - some I work with if it is our True Faith In Christ Jesus Awesome Atoning Blood Sacrifice [His Grace] That Saves or is it The True Faith of Christ that Saves, there answer was it is our True Faith In Christ Jesus That Saves. I am sure there are other non LDS christians [millions] that would agree, so perhaps your thoughts on this need to be reset in line with your newfound evangelical brothers and sisters. Well time is out, I must go and Worship The Lord by way of my walk In The Light of His True Grace. May True Grace that is accepted, accessed, activated, grabbed hold of, obtained, received, held on to by True Faith [pistis - allegiance, commitment, confidence, dedication, devotion, faithfulness ,fidelity, loyalty, Obedience, Trust].

The Atonement it Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian , Warrior

[Anakin7]

   Responses to imputed Righteousness - non LDS - http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/ConsequencesOfImputedRighteousness.htm          http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/impute.html     https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/esimputedrighteousness.htm 

  LDS - http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/01/the-myth-of-imputed-righteousness-of.html 

http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/04/michael-flournoy-on-forensic.html 

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, saint,Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Anakin7