Anakin7 Posted July 6, 2018 Posted July 6, 2018 Well must leave to work to work with my evangelical christian friends. Have a True Grace Empowered day.
RevTestament Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 On 7/5/2018 at 5:50 PM, FormerLDS said: I have a sinful body that will pay the penalty of sin, but inwardly, I have a perfect and sinless soul that has eternal life and been washed clean by the power of the blood of Jesus Christ and cannot sin. I have an old, sinful man and a new, sinless inward man. That is baloney. The body cannot sin without the soul - nor can it be punished without the soul. 1 John 1: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
FormerLDS Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 58 minutes ago, RevTestament said: That is baloney. The body cannot sin without the soul - nor can it be punished without the soul. 1 John 1: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. For clarity, I did not say I have no sin. I said I have a sinful body of flesh, but I have a sinless, perfect and pure soul because I have eternal life within the inward man. Consider the following passage in Romans 7:18-20 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Ephesians 4:22-24 clearly explains how the old man is sinful, but the new, inward man is righteous and holy. "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Again, the inward man is perfect and sinless and cannot sin and that is how we can meet Heavenly Father's commandment to be perfect. The LDS religion can never offer you sinless perfection, but Jesus Christ offers His perfection freely to anyone who believes upon Him. You never responded to my previous questions about obeying the commandments. Do you keep the Saviors commandment for perfection in Matthew 5:48?
Anakin7 Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 Just returned awhile ago from work in which I work with a number of evangelical christians. During my work I came in contact again with a evangelical christian I worked with years ago. After some brief and short communication catching up on our spiritual and temporal lives I asked who's Faith saves us, Jesus Faith or our Faith ?. His reply was Our Faith in Christ Jesus. I then told him about some who believe thst it is Christ Jesus Faith not ours that Saves us. He stated that did not sound right and was incorrect. From my understanding my friend has been a christian for a # of years and has studied the Bible for some time now. Have a Blessed day.
RevTestament Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: For clarity, I did not say I have no sin. I said I have a sinful body of flesh, but I have a sinless, perfect and pure soul because I have eternal life within the inward man. Consider the following passage in Romans 7:18-20 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Ephesians 4:22-24 clearly explains how the old man is sinful, but the new, inward man is righteous and holy. "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Again, the inward man is perfect and sinless and cannot sin and that is how we can meet Heavenly Father's commandment to be perfect. The LDS religion can never offer you sinless perfection, but Jesus Christ offers His perfection freely to anyone who believes upon Him. You never responded to my previous questions about obeying the commandments. Do you keep the Saviors commandment for perfection in Matthew 5:48? There are many of my points you have not responded to, or that you avoid with fairly meaningless adjuncts like that above. When I made the point that "saved" people can commit sins from which they need to repent, you avoid the point. I said: Quote Of course you prefer the English translation which most closely says what you want it to say. You are not interested in the intent of what is trying to be communicated over the sum total of scripture. Like I said it is a sad exegesis. I don't think there is much way to reconcile what John is saying with your interpretation of Paul. Those who know what sin is, even if they have accepted Christ, and been born again, can sin. And if they do sin and turn away from God, they become children of the devil according to John. Anyone who makes a practice of sinning is doing the work of the devil, and is no longer in Christ. Now if you have a repentant heart, and confess your sins to Him, I believe you that you have eternal life, and are in a saved state. But you never say that. You say you cannot sin, and that is not really what the scriptures mean. They mean if you are in Christ you will avoid sin, because it is abhorrent to you. When I ask you if you sin, you try to claim that your body is sinful, but you are not. That is impossible. You can sin, and according to John, you then need to repent. You don't sound like you do that.
FormerLDS Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 11 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Just returned awhile ago from work in which I work with a number of evangelical christians. During my work I came in contact again with a evangelical christian I worked with years ago. After some brief and short communication catching up on our spiritual and temporal lives I asked who's Faith saves us, Jesus Faith or our Faith ?. His reply was Our Faith in Christ Jesus. I then told him about some who believe thst it is Christ Jesus Faith not ours that Saves us. He stated that did not sound right and was incorrect. From my understanding my friend has been a christian for a # of years and has studied the Bible for some time now. Have a Blessed day. Should truth be based upon the opinions of man or the word of God? I have never claimed to be an evangelical Christian or even a Christian for that matter. My beliefs are mine alone and not based upon the creeds and opinions of a corporate congregation, but upon the reading of the word of God in the Bible. Would you be willing to believe what the Bible plainly says?
FormerLDS Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 10 hours ago, RevTestament said: When I made the point that "saved" people can commit sins from which they need to repent, you avoid the point. I said: Avoiding the point is finding another Bible version that says what I want the word of God to say. The Bible plainly says those who are born again cannot sin. "Born" is not a physical birth, but a spiritual birth. It is a new, sinless inward man that HAS eternal life and HAS the perfection of Jesus Christ. If you do not agree with this, I totally understand because this is NOT LDS theology. 10 hours ago, RevTestament said: Now if you have a repentant heart, and confess your sins to Him, I believe you that you have eternal life, and are in a saved state. Can you show me where LDS theology supports your belief that you have eternal life? I'll happily admit I'm wrong if you can show me where your church supports your beliefs. 10 hours ago, RevTestament said: They mean if you are in Christ you will avoid sin, because it is abhorrent to you. Do you avoid sin? The Savior plainly commands us to be perfect in Matthew 5:48. Are you obeying this commandment or not? 10 hours ago, RevTestament said: When I ask you if you sin, you try to claim that your body is sinful, but you are not. That is impossible. You can sin, and according to John, you then need to repent. You don't sound like you do that. How do you explain the passage from Romans 7 provided earlier where the Bible plainly tells us "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."? If it is "no more I that do it" what exactly does that mean?
RevTestament Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 35 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Avoiding the point is finding another Bible version that says what I want the word of God to say. The Bible plainly says those who are born again cannot sin. "Born" is not a physical birth, but a spiritual birth. It is a new, sinless inward man that HAS eternal life and HAS the perfection of Jesus Christ. If you do not agree with this, I totally understand because this is NOT LDS theology. Can you show me where LDS theology supports your belief that you have eternal life? I'll happily admit I'm wrong if you can show me where your church supports your beliefs. Do you avoid sin? The Savior plainly commands us to be perfect in Matthew 5:48. Are you obeying this commandment or not? How do you explain the passage from Romans 7 provided earlier where the Bible plainly tells us "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."? If it is "no more I that do it" what exactly does that mean? More avoidance of my questions and points. All Paul is talking about is the natural man inside him. The natural man desires things which he must resist. The natural man is selfish rather than loving to all. The natural man desires wealth, recognition and sometimes lustful thoughts. Trying to pin all these on one's body and not their own mind and thoughts is foolishness. Do I believe I have eternal life? Yes, I do, but I also believe I can lose that promise if I commit unforgivable sins. So I take those verses in the spirit intended as a promise rather than making one immune from sin. I think 1 John 1 makes that clear. You have bought into a dangerous and heretical modern teaching which is just plain rubbish when one takes these verses in their context with the rest of the NT. Teaching that one cannot sin as an absolute is plain rubbish, and is not a teaching fit for a true Christian - nor is it consistent with the rest of the NT. Turning the future tense into the present tense does not make one immune from Satan. Indeed, I believe it makes one subject to him, although it is a common way Hebrews communicated. Trying to make that cultural method of communication into an absolute truth in Greek, creates these kinds of problems, but there is definitely enough context in the NT to understand that what is being communicated is a promise of eternal life to those who follow. It does no one any good to be using your semantics and ignoring the full context. It is an unproductive endeavor you seek.
Anakin7 Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Should truth be based upon the opinions of man or the word of God? I have never claimed to be an evangelical Christian or even a Christian for that matter. My beliefs are mine alone and not based upon the creeds and opinions of a corporate congregation, but upon the reading of the word of God in the Bible. Would you be willing to believe what the Bible plainly says? Yes as long as The True Holy Ghost/Spirit Testifies to me of a True Truth. Your view was considered heretical within the walls of Early Christianity, Private interpretation is one of the reasons why there were changes in the early christian church which Peter one of The Lord's anointed warned about in regards to private interpretation. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior
FormerLDS Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: More avoidance of my questions and points. All Paul is talking about is the natural man inside him. The natural man desires things which he must resist. The natural man is selfish rather than loving to all. The natural man desires wealth, recognition and sometimes lustful thoughts. Trying to pin all these on one's body and not their own mind and thoughts is foolishness. Do I believe I have eternal life? Yes, I do, but I also believe I can lose that promise if I commit unforgivable sins. Your doctrinal position seems to be changing. First, you claim that you don't sin intentionally, but after review, you clearly do. Then, you claim not to make a practice of sinning, but after review, it's quite clear that isn't true. Now, it appears that all is well as long as you don't commit "unforgivable sins". Specifically what sins are you referring to that are "unforgivable"? The Bible tells us plainly in 1 John 1:17 that "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin". Is this yet another verse that needs to be corrected by another version or true contextual meaning? 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Do I believe I have eternal life? Yes, I do, but I also believe I can lose that promise if I commit unforgivable sins. Is actually having eternal life the same thing as having a promise of eternal life? A "promise" means you DO NOT have it yet. Try offering you wife a promise that you'll get her that new jewelry instead of actually buying her the new jewelry and see how that works out for you. The Savior tells us those who believe upon Him HAVE eternal life. That's not a promise. To make matters even worse, the reality is, you sin so much you don't even know if you're sinning. And if that still isn't enough, James 2:10 plainly tells us that when you break even one commandment, you break ALL of them simultaneously! "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." The good news is Jesus Christ will give you His eternal life and His perfection if you would be willing to believe upon Him and allow His grace to save you to the uttermost. Will you believe His words? 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: It does no one any good to be using your semantics and ignoring the full context. It is an unproductive endeavor you seek. Jesus Christ plainly tells us in John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." Does He mean we can have eternal life like He says or we can only have a promise of eternal life?
FormerLDS Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 45 minutes ago, Anakin7 said: Yes as long as The True Holy Ghost/Spirit Testifies to me of a True Truth. Your view was considered heretical within the walls of Early Christianity, Private interpretation is one of the reasons why there were changes in the early christian church which Peter one of The Lord's anointed warned about in regards to private interpretation. What is "True Truth"? Fake truth isn't truth. I guess I'm a heretic then...by the way, did the religious leaders in His day consider Jesus to be a heretic? My interpretation of the words of Jesus Christ is not a private interpretation. For example, Jesus Christ said "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life", and I believe that I have eternal life because I believe completely upon Him and not my own worthiness. How is that a private interpretation?
bluebell Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: What is "True Truth"? Fake truth isn't truth. I guess I'm a heretic then...by the way, did the religious leaders in His day consider Jesus to be a heretic? My interpretation of the words of Jesus Christ is not a private interpretation. For example, Jesus Christ said "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life", and I believe that I have eternal life because I believe completely upon Him and not my own worthiness. How is that a private interpretation? You do not take into account everything else that Christ said about receiving eternal life. You do not take into account what the scriptures teach eternal life is. 2
RevTestament Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Your doctrinal position seems to be changing. First, you claim that you don't sin intentionally, but after review, you clearly do. Then, you claim not to make a practice of sinning, but after review, it's quite clear that isn't true. Now, it appears that all is well as long as you don't commit "unforgivable sins". Specifically what sins are you referring to that are "unforgivable"? The Bible tells us plainly in 1 John 1:17 that "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin". Is this yet another verse that needs to be corrected by another version or true contextual meaning? This is just another example of the way you read scripture. 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Which scripture controls? The general one or the specific one? You cannot simply rely on the English translation of one or two verses where they conflict with others. I am not going to continue to go around with you in circles when you insist on reading the scriptures in such a narrow and errant fashion. Frankly, it is not worth my time. You either get it or your don't. May God bless you.
Anakin7 Posted July 8, 2018 Posted July 8, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, FormerLDS said: What is "True Truth"? Fake truth isn't truth. I guess I'm a heretic then...by the way, did the religious leaders in His day consider Jesus to be a heretic? My interpretation of the words of Jesus Christ is not a private interpretation. For example, Jesus Christ said "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life", and I believe that I have eternal life because I believe completely upon Him and not my own worthiness. How is that a private interpretation? I will get back to this when time allows. The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Edited July 9, 2018 by Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 8 hours ago, bluebell said: You do not take into account everything else that Christ said about receiving eternal life. You do not take into account what the scriptures teach eternal life is. Do you believe the words of Jesus Christ or not? Jesus Christ plainly said "He that believeth on me HATH everlasting life." John 6:47 That verse was not mistranslated (see JSV), is a present-tense verb and is very plain and simple for even a child to understand. The Savior says this same thing on numerous occasions. Perhaps you could provide how your epistemology explains the words of Jesus Christ in John 6:47 and other passages that use the present-tense "have" when referring to eternal life? Specifically how is what I'm saying not taking into account what the scriptures teach eternal life is?
FormerLDS Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 8 hours ago, RevTestament said: This is just another example of the way you read scripture. 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Which scripture controls? The general one or the specific one? You cannot simply rely on the English translation of one or two verses where they conflict with others. I am not going to continue to go around with you in circles when you insist on reading the scriptures in such a narrow and errant fashion. Frankly, it is not worth my time. You either get it or your don't. May God bless you. Why don't you just admit that you simply do not believe what the Bible - and Jesus Christ Himself - plainly says? 1 John 3:9 plainly says "Whoever is born of God does not sin", but you claim it says "Whoever is born of God still sins". 1 John 3:9 plainly says "he cannot sin", but you claim it should say "he can sin". How do we know those who are in Christ do not and CAN NOT sin? Verse 5 tells us plainly that in Jesus there is NO SIN "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." Verse 6 very plainly tells us if we abide in Him we do not sin because He does not sin "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Those who have Jesus Christ within them have His life, His perfection and His sinlessness imputed to them. They have eternal life. Eternal life means He is in us and we are in Him through spiritual rebirth into the family of God as sinless, perfect new creatures in Christ Jesus: "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." 1 John 5:18-20 If we have sin how could we be in Him and He in us if He is without sin?
RevTestament Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Why don't you just admit that you simply do not believe what the Bible - and Jesus Christ Himself - plainly says? 1 John 3:9 plainly says "Whoever is born of God does not sin", but you claim it says "Whoever is born of God still sins". 1 John 3:9 plainly says "he cannot sin", but you claim it should say "he can sin". How do we know those who are in Christ do not and CAN NOT sin? Verse 5 tells us plainly that in Jesus there is NO SIN "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." Verse 6 very plainly tells us if we abide in Him we do not sin because He does not sin "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Those who have Jesus Christ within them have His life, His perfection and His sinlessness imputed to them. They have eternal life. Eternal life means He is in us and we are in Him through spiritual rebirth into the family of God as sinless, perfect new creatures in Christ Jesus: "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." 1 John 5:18-20 If we have sin how could we be in Him and He in us if He is without sin? Ever hear of repentance? You still aren't getting it. Here is another simple example of problems with your type of mechanical reading. Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. See any problem following both these scriptures? The list goes on and on. You are essentially insisting on a narrow interpretation of a verse like Num 31:17 without context from the rest of the NT. Then you are asking me why not just read it my way? The answer is because I know better. I am not deceived.
Anakin7 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) On July 8, 2018 at 10:28 AM, FormerLDS said: What is "True Truth"? Fake truth isn't truth. I guess I'm a heretic then...by the way, did the religious leaders in His day consider Jesus to be a heretic? My interpretation of the words of Jesus Christ is not a private interpretation. For example, Jesus Christ said "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life", and I believe that I have eternal life because I believe completely upon Him and not my own worthiness. How is that a private interpretation? True Truth is The Banner carried by those who are True Saints, Christians, Disciples of The Lord Of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master, Christ Jesus. Yes there are multiple forms, models, views of truth which are false which can be detected by mighty prayer and study of ancient scripture and of the Ancient Saints, Christians and followers of The Master Christ Jesus. Your comment of the arrogant, prideful Religious leaders of Jesus day [who were actually the real heretics] is non comparable I am speaking of the heretics and false teachers that were growing like weeds in N.T and post N.T time period. Yes you are giving private interpretation to holy Writ - Imputed Righteousness of Christ, Faithfulness of Christ. I applaud and give you BIG HUGS in your Believing on Christ Jesus to posses eternal life and not your own self boasting worthiness. Once again -No Imputed Righteousness - http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/01/the-myth-of-imputef-righteousnes-of.html http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/04/michael-flournoy-on-forensic.html http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/ConsequencesOfimputedRighteousness.htm http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/impute.html https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/esimputedrighteousness.htm I am not totally against the Faithfulness of Christ reading but here is another response to that understanding and viewpoint - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/faith-in-christ-or-faithfulness-of-christ/ https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/faith-in-christ-or-faithfulness-of-christ-whats-the-difference/ Faith In Jesus - http://www.gotquestions.org/faith-in-jesus.html https://www.openbible.info/topics/faith_in_jesus By whose Faith are we Saved ? - https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2011/01/28by-whose-faith-are-we-saved-christs-or-ours/ Christians cannot sin ? - https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/christians-cannot-sin-or-can-they/ And a response to your Gnosticism and Manicheanism Views - https://biblicaltruthresources.wordpress.com/2013/08/06/is-our-flesh-...a-sin-the-heresy-of-gnosticism-manichenism-refuted-by-jesse-morrell/ . Thank you so very much for re confirming my LDS, Saint, Christian, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior Belief and Faith In my Lord Of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master, Christ Jesus and His Awesome Atoning Blood Sacrifice and True Grace on my behalf. May True Grace be with you and all you Love. Yes I use links at times to Defend The LDS New Jerusalem City against the fiery arrows/darts/stones thrown against us, that is how I roll. If you do not read them, fine but it is archived in Heaven that I presented them to you to pray ponder, search. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In his Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Edited July 10, 2018 by Anakin7 1
mfbukowski Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) On 6/22/2018 at 11:30 AM, Bill "Papa" Lee said: This Sunday last, I taught a class (or directed the "discussion") in Priesthood about the Atonement. As it is new policy, the Elder's Quorum meets in a large circle to discuss, what they would like to be discussed. Each time we do this, a member of the Elder's Quorum Presidency, asks which "Conference Talk", we would like to discuss. On this Fast Sunday meeting, I suggested that we discuss an address (sermon) from April General Conference of 1985. As my friend was writing it down he paused and said, "1985"! Jokingly (and to make a point) he said, "Bill, many in this room were not even alive in 1985." I told him that it was OK, because the Gospel is still the same. Since I suggested it, and felt so strongly about it, the Elder's Quorum President asked that I teach the lesson. However, no one uses the term "teach" much anymore, but the word "discussion", due to recent changes. Nothing has changed, all classes have always been a combination of teaching and discussion anyway. The Conference sermon I chose is entitled, "The purifying power of Gethsemane", by Elder Bruce R McConkie. I asked a number of questions to encourage the discussion, for the goal of the class. I first quoted the Scripture by the Apostle Paul, which states "We are saved by Grace, not by works least any man boast" (I hope I quoted it correctly) Also the Scripture, "I would not have you ignorant of the truth". (Again, I hope I quoted it correctly). I then asked the following questions, I list them to ask of those here for discussion and thread purposes. So, it is my desire that those who post, give their first thought, as I will be explaining my replies to those in my class. 1. "Are we saved by Grace alone"?I asked this question to point out that as often (for those not of our Faith), we try to over explain our views on this topic, leading many to believe that we reject one of the most fundamental doctrines of Christian theology. Since most said or shook their head "no", I moved on to question number two. 2. "What can I do to be saved from death and hell (the grace) and be resurrected"? With this question, everyone said, "nothing, Jesus Christ did it already, all will be resurrected". This set the stage for the next question, question number three. 3. "How did Jesus Christ do this for us all (even that very day, many rose from the grave with him, HE being the first)"? The reply for this question was (with all) in concert. "The Atonement", which was the topic Elder McConkie was speaking on. A sermon that he knew would be his last, as he passed away only days later. He had cancer, and felt like this sermon was the most important thing he could and should proclaim. As he noted in his opening remarks. The answer, "The Atonement" set the stage for question number four. 4. "Where did the Atonement take place"? Some said nothing, but for those who did so, (to a man) said, "In the Garden of Gethsemane". I then had a number of Priesthood holders read comments concerning where, when and how it took place. The first quote was (or pointed out) that the Atonement is probably the most misunderstood of all doctrines in the Church. In this sermon it pointed out that it took place in the Garden and upon the cross. Some picking up on that said, "well then why not at his mock trail, or his beating, or while carrying his cross"? In short some we almost upset that their answer concerning "The Atonement" was not descriptive enough. But Elder McConkie's sermon went much deeper. So on to question number five. BTW, even our Gospel Essentiala book teaches that the Atonement took place both in the Garden and at the Cross. 5. " Why and what do the works of righteousness do for us, and what role do they serve, and why are they necessarily"? This came with so many answers that they are too many to list. But the discussion moved quickly back to the Atonement, and where an how, and if what I was saying seemed to suggest that nothing more needed be done. I then noticed that many who are very vocal, and love discussion were sitting with arms folded, and lips pressed. One was a member of the Stake Presidency, who said nothing. So, I began quoting others instead f just Elder McConkie, such as President John Taylor, who was wounded almost to death with the Prophet Joseph Smith. Then quoted from a very Jr member of the Quorum, maybe even a Seventy when this sermon happened, who is now the President of the Quorum of the Twelve and a member of the First presidency, President Dallin H Oaks, who said... "Man unquestionably has impressive powers and can bring to pass great things by tireless efforts and indomitable will. But after all our obedience and good works, we cannot be saved from the effect of our sins without the grace extended by the atonement of Jesus Christ...man cannot earn his own salvation. (Ensign, November 1988, p 67). (Had this on my nightstand, so I know I quoted it correctly) Elder Bruce R McConkie's final words ever spoken to the Saints in thus life (words I m quoting from memory, because I gave out all my copies) are as follows... "I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days I will feel the nail prints in his hands and in his feet, and will wet his feet with my tears. But, I will not know better then than I know now, that salvation comes in and trough his atoning sacrifice, and in no other way. God grant that we walk in the light, as he is in the light. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen". (Again, I pray I quoted this mighty man of God correctly...if not please forgive me) So to all who take the time to read this (including my dear wife, who helps me to get it right, as my eyesight continues to fade) how would you have answered these questions? Are there any who disagree, or think my focus was too narrow, or my methods to direct? I would love to foster discussion, or field questions. My world, due to so many health problems is becoming so small, this forum allows me to make it a little larger. Had to see a heart doctor yesterday, been having problems, and she found an abnormality in my EKG, so more tests coming. So even if no replys, prayers would be nice. ETA, give yourselves a blessing, look up and read, and watch Elder McConkie's final sermon. You will not be disappointed. It is a powerful message, and a powerful testimony, from a powerful special witness. The atonement occurs for each of us when and wherever we individually accept that we are saved by Grace, after all we can do. Let go, and let God. Nothing else is relevant to us individually. We are all in the world but not of the world. In a spiritual sense our individual worlds are all we need to worry about. I hope you are doing well. Edited July 9, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 11 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Why don't you just admit that you simply do not believe what the Bible - and Jesus Christ Himself - plainly says? Because I worship Jesus Christ and not the Bible. Pretty simple stuff. Jesus speaks to me in my heart and that is how I know what I should or should not accept in the Bible. and don't talk to me about private interpretation. You have your own private interpretation of what "private interpretation" even means. Private interpretation is inescapable. God gave you a mind and a heart for a reason. We are not robots. 2
pogi Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Because I worship Jesus Christ and not the Bible. Pretty simple stuff. Jesus speaks to me in my heart and that is how I know what I should or should not accept in the Bible. and don't talk to me about private interpretation. You have your own private interpretation of what "private interpretation" even means. Private interpretation is inescapable. God gave you a mind and a heart for a reason. We are not robots. I have interacted with Former enough through private conversation to know where this is going to go: Quote The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) This despite the fact that Christ himself praises the pure in heart, and that Christ dwells in our hearts through faith (Ephesians 3:17), and the fact that Jeremiah (the same prophet that said "who can know the heart") later said "the word of God is written in our hearts" (Jeremiah 31:11). But he will dismiss all of those passages in favor of his misunderstood passage. He will also dismiss the Septuagint (the original Bible), which reads: Quote The heart is deep beyond all things, and it is the man, and who can know him? Jeremiah 17:9 He will also dismiss the parable of the sower which shows that all spiritual understanding happens in our hearts via our spiritual eyes and ears. Edited July 9, 2018 by pogi
mfbukowski Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 2 hours ago, pogi said: I have interacted with Former enough through private conversation to know where this is going to go: This despite the fact that Christ himself praises the pure in heart, and that Christ dwells in our hearts through faith (Ephesians 3:17), and the fact that Jeremiah (the same prophet that said "who can know the heart") later said "the word of God is written in our hearts" (Jeremiah 31:11). But he will dismiss all of those passages in favor of his misunderstood passage. He will also dismiss the Septuagint (the original Bible), which reads: He will also dismiss the parable of the sower which shows that all spiritual understanding happens in our hearts via our spiritual eyes and ears. Just more Bible worship without a basis for believing it. He clearly believes in the Bible. Why? Because he has a testimony of it like it or not. That is the only reason for believing all those legends and contradictions and calling it the Word of God. There is no other reason for doing so. There are hundreds of old scriptures lying around the face of the earth which Christians do NOT accept because of history- so clearly history is not the reason. How can you know that Jesus is the Savior and that you are "saved"? How does he know he is "saved"? That pesky old HEART again! It's a circular argument. He cannot offer a coherent REASON to believe other than the heart- and yet he disparages it. Central contradiction there. It sure ain't science that the death of one man 2000 years ago takes away his sins. What other alternative does he have? Because it says so in some old book? Give me a break! I think you have to be a good atheist before you can justify religious experience- that is the great paradox of Adam and Eve. You cannot know God until you have seen the godless universe and rejected it. You cannot know the good without knowing "evil" And what is the only church that teaches this while affirming personal revelation? Guess. Even philosophers like Rorty who are themselves atheists end up affirming something like Mormonism as the only way one can reasonably justify belief in God- that is why I like him. He is one atheist who leaves the door open that God exists. Sort of.
Anakin7 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) Get back to this later. Edited July 9, 2018 by Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 On 7/8/2018 at 11:34 PM, RevTestament said: Ever hear of repentance? You still aren't getting it. Here is another simple example of problems with your type of mechanical reading. Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. See any problem following both these scriptures? The list goes on and on. You are essentially insisting on a narrow interpretation of a verse like Num 31:17 without context from the rest of the NT. Then you are asking me why not just read it my way? The answer is because I know better. I am not deceived. If God is big enough to create this world with nothing more than His voice then He should also be big enough to make - and break - His own commandments as He pleases. Maybe I just don't get it? Please share your interpretation of 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." According to you, what does this verse really mean? Specifically the part about "for his seed remaineth in him" as pertaining to why those who are born again do not sin. I'd love to hear this.
FormerLDS Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 On 7/9/2018 at 9:59 AM, mfbukowski said: Because I worship Jesus Christ and not the Bible. Pretty simple stuff. Jesus speaks to me in my heart and that is how I know what I should or should not accept in the Bible. and don't talk to me about private interpretation. You have your own private interpretation of what "private interpretation" even means. Private interpretation is inescapable. God gave you a mind and a heart for a reason. We are not robots. See, I think you actually believe what you want to believe and not what Jesus Christ says, so let's put your claim to a very simple test. Jesus Christ plainly tells us in John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." Do you have eternal life or not?
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