Please help me to understand if this thinking process is flawed

[Atheist Mormon]

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them. The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result. Coming from the opposite ends of spectrum we keep playing both hoping for the best result.

[mfbukowski]

8 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them. The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result. Coming from the opposite ends of spectrum we keep playing both hoping for the best result.

Ok so what's the question?

But commenting on what do you have said I don't see it that way.

I do not pray to have God change the world or in your analogy the cards. I would pray to have the intelligence to play well and to have the right attitude about the outcome regardless of what it was. I do not pray to God to have a change of circumstance I pray to have the right attitude to deal with my present circumstance no matter what it is.

For me prayer is all about changing my attitude not the actual circumstances.

And it always always works.

Edited June 22, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you.

I often see prayer as a deep interview process with that best being Within Myself, of being that I know exist but he is within me. When I consult with that being Within in deep meditation he helps me see ways around or out of the circumstance or things I am not doing properly to change my circumstance.

Or in some situations like the death of a loved one there are no circumstances that can be changed.  That being deep within me can show me how to change my attitude toward that circumstance.

It's not at all like praying for better cards it's praying for a better insight into how to cope with the cards I am dealt. 

And I have found that the process works better if I am "worthy" in the LDS behavioral sense.

No I have heard other atheists tell me that all I am doing is Consulting my own unconscious mind to work better for me.

They do not feel what I feel nor do they know what I'm talking about. But on the other hand it really doesn't matter at that point it becomes a matter of semantics.

All we have is words to express these things. If they want to think that being deep inside them is their own unconscious that is their way of expressing it in language.

It doesn't matter to me half dozen of one six of the other.

If you want to think that God is your own unconscious mind at least it's better than denying that the process works.

Because I know the process works.

That would make you a secular religionist. There are plenty of people around looking for a higher purpose for their lives, global warming, save the whales Etc.

No problem. Believing in a higher purpose is better than going through life without one.

At some point it's only words.

Pardon odd errors in grammar and wording this was dictated into my phone. I don't have time to go back and edit it.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2018 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them. The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result. Coming from the opposite ends of spectrum we keep playing both hoping for the best result.

It is not about what we are dealt, it is about what we do with what we are dealt.  See the parable of the talents. 

It is amazing to me how a person can be dealt every luxury that life has to offer, with money, looks, intelligence, etc. and yet be in the deepest darkest despair, to the point of taking their own life.  While others, such as Corrie ten Boom, can find peace, hope, and even happiness/love in the depths of a Nazi labor camp, and while kept in solitary confinement.

Quote

 

My life is but a weaving
Between my God and me.
I cannot choose the colors
He weaveth steadily.

Oft’ times He weaveth sorrow;
And I in foolish pride
Forget He sees the upper
And I the underside.

Not ’til the loom is silent
And the shuttles cease to fly
Will God unroll the canvas
And reveal the reason why.

The dark threads are as needful
In the weaver’s skillful hand
As the threads of gold and silver
In the pattern He has planned

He knows, He loves, He cares;
Nothing this truth can dim.
He gives the very best to those
Who leave the choice to Him. 
― Corrie ten Boom

 

Sometimes the perspective of faith makes all the difference in the world.  It literally shapes our world and how we perceive it. 

[Kevin Christensen]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them. The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result. Coming from the opposite ends of spectrum we keep playing both hoping for the best result.

Nibley quoted Payne:

Quote

"There is always danger of a metaphor once adopted becoming the master instead of the servant."

In Mantic Box, and Sophic Vista, I quoted Sarup on Derrida:

Quote

One of the ruling illusions of Western metaphysics is that reason can somehow grasp the world without close attention to language and arrive at a pure, self-authenticating truth or method. Derrida’s work draws attention to the ways in which language deflects the philosopher’s project. He does this by focusing on metaphors and other figurative devices in the texts of philosophy…

His method consists of showing how the privileged term is held in place by the force of the dominant metaphor, and not, as it might seem, by any conclusive logic.

Kuhn points out that “paradigms provide not only a map, but some of the directions for map making.”

And Margaret Barker talks about how one of the definitions of the word behind "parable" is "to rule over."

So the metaphors we choose to build our frameworks on have a crucial effect on the way we frame problems, investigate, and interpret all that goes on.  In my view, the problem starts with the metaphor.

Ian Barbour points to Whitehead's model, and its implications, which, it turns out, have implications for Mormons.

Quote

Four models of God’s relation to the world have been mentioned, patterned respectively after an absolute monarch and his kingdom, a clockmaker and a clock, a dialogue between two persons, and an agent and his actions. In the process thought of Alfred North Whitehead, a fifth model is presented: a society of which one member is pre-eminent but not absolute. The universe is pictured as a community of interacting beings, rather than as a monarchy, a machine, an interpersonal dialogue or a cosmic organism.⁹⁶

Process thought provides distinctive analyses of the problems of freedom and evil. The ways in which freedom is built into process metaphysics from the outset have already been indicated. If the classical ideas of omnipotence and predestination are given up, God is exonerated of responsibility for natural evil. If no event is the product of God’s agency alone, he works with a world, given to him in every moment, which never fully embodies his will. The creatures, and above all man, are free to reject the higher vision. Suffering is inevitable in a world of beings with conflicting goals. Pain is part of the price of consciousness and intensity of feeling. In an evolutionary world, struggle is integral to the realization of greater value. As Teilhard de Chardin maintained, evil is intrinsic to an evolving cosmos as it would not be to an instantaneous creation. Suffering and death are not punishments for sin but structural concomitants of what he called “the immense travail” of a world in birth.

We aren't sitting at a table, pondering the rules of chance as embodied in a 52 card deck, but participating in a complex society of agents and ongoing natural processes.  I have far more to work with than how the cards turn up.  I live in a much bigger world, and work with far more interesting evidence, and more complex metaphors.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

[YJacket]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them. The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result. Coming from the opposite ends of spectrum we keep playing both hoping for the best result.

Your analogy is terribly flawed. A believer doesn't believe the cards are stacked in his favor or that believing in God will give him better cards or that the cards will pay better dividends. 

A believer, believes that faith in God allows him to understand better how the game is played; not that he gets a better hand than the person sitting beside him.  It gives him greater insight into whether the appropriate action is to anty up, take a hit, swap cards, or fold. A believer knows that the goal of the game isn't dependent on how many chips you gain, it's on how you respond to each separate instance of the game-it's in your attitude of playing the game and in appropriate responses necessary to each situation.  A believer ultimately knows that eventually you will walk away from the game and that you can't take your chips with you b/c they are the house chips, so the only thing that really matters is that you learn the rules of the game appropriately, learn how to respond appropriately to the chance of the game and that ultimately the attitude, knowledge, wisdom you have gained when you leave the table and how you've played the game is what really matters.

Edited June 22, 2018 by YJacket

[Atheist Mormon]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you.

I often see prayer as a deep interview process with that best being Within Myself, of being that I know exist but he is within me. When I consult with that being Within in deep meditation he helps me see ways around or out of the circumstance or things I am not doing properly to change my circumstance.

Or in some situations like the death of a loved one there are no circumstances that can be changed.  That being deep within me can show me how to change my attitude toward that circumstance.

It's not at all like praying for better cards it's praying for a better insight into how to cope with the cards I am dealt. 

And I have found that the process works better if I am "worthy" in the LDS behavioral sense.

No I have heard other atheists tell me that all I am doing is Consulting my own unconscious mind to work better for me.

They do not feel what I feel nor do they know what I'm talking about. But on the other hand it really doesn't matter at that point it becomes a matter of semantics.

All we have is words to express these things. If they want to think that being deep inside them is their own unconscious that is their way of expressing it in language.

It doesn't matter to me half dozen of one six of the other.

If you want to think that God is your own unconscious mind at least it's better than denying that the process works.

Because I know the process works.

That would make you a secular religionist. There are plenty of people around looking for a higher purpose for their lives, global warming, save the whales Etc.

No problem. Believing in a higher purpose is better than going through life without one.

At some point it's only words.

Pardon odd errors in grammar and wording this was dictated into my phone. I don't have time to go back and edit it.

 

 

When you write "it works", it works because of your prayers? When Jesus says "The Kingdom of God is within you". I know many philosophers, scientist say the same thing "The Power is within you". I don't recall ever using power of prayers, when I tried use it it didn't work, seemed waste of time. When I trusted myself either I screwed up (more often than not) or I hit the jackpot but I never attributed my failures to satan, successes to God. It was me or the people I was associated all the way. I don't look higher purpose in life, it's futile....We are going (as species) down the drain, I only hope it won't happen couple more decades. 

And I have to be blunt here...your philosophy is nowhere near to traditional LDS philosophy I know of.....Not that I criticize you, not that I think yours is better or vice versa.

[Atheist Mormon]

4 hours ago, YJacket said:

Your analogy is terribly flawed. A believer doesn't believe the cards are stacked in his favor or that believing in God will give him better cards or that the cards will pay better dividends. 

A believer, believes that faith in God allows him to understand better how the game is played; not that he gets a better hand than the person sitting beside him.  It gives him greater insight into whether the appropriate action is to anty up, take a hit, swap cards, or fold. A believer knows that the goal of the game isn't dependent on how many chips you gain, it's on how you respond to each separate instance of the game-it's in your attitude of playing the game and in appropriate responses necessary to each situation.  A believer ultimately knows that eventually you will walk away from the game and that you can't take your chips with you b/c they are the house chips, so the only thing that really matters is that you learn the rules of the game appropriately, learn how to respond appropriately to the chance of the game and that ultimately the attitude, knowledge, wisdom you have gained when you leave the table and how you've played the game is what really matters.

Okay, assuming it's flawed but my experiment / investing time into God was total waste...I feel like once I realized trusting myself and the people I love was better way to go, my life took off with rocket speed. You are right when you respond..."how you've played the game is what really matters.". It really does. What I did was put the faith in myself, read the Agony of Charles Darwin when he realized what the reality he faced, it almost crushed him, in a way I felt like him, it was deeply depressing to realize this would be the only shot I'd have for a sentient life, took me a while to recover and start enjoy the life I have.

[Maidservant]

21 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them. The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result. Coming from the opposite ends of spectrum we keep playing both hoping for the best result.

I was listening to a non-Mormon Christian pastor giving a sermon and I really liked something I heard.  He said that he had a habit of asking people why they were Christian.  Often they would answer:  "I'm Christian, because I want to get to heaven; and Christ is the way I'm going to do it."  The pastor said he had a hard time respecting that.  He said, "I'm not a Christian because I want to go to heaven.  I'm a Christian because I want to be with Christ."  The implication is that these are two very different propositions, ways of approaching life, with different outcomes.  The pastor didn't bring this up, but I recall that Christ said, If you follow me you are going to have a hard time such as being persecuted.  I don't think Jesus promised goodie bags for following him.

Following Christ is to walk on this planet in the manner that Christ did.  It's not about "doing what God/Christ want me to" so I can "stop suffering/get what I want/get the prize money for being a good boy or girl".  In what manner did Christ walk the earth?  It's an amazing thing to study, with layers, and will take you through many adventures.

The kind of God that I seem to hear in your words is what I call a "candy machine God" or a "push button God".  In my perspective, there just isn't one of those kinds of Gods.  I'm an atheist to that kind of God, too.  Most human beings pass through the disillusionment of life/Life being not what we expected at all--being broken (a broken heart, as the Book of Mormon describes it).  We realize that there is no candy machine that produces X just because we push Y.  EVERYBODY FIGURES THIS OUT.  EVERYBODY FEELS REALLY BETRAYED BY THIS.  The difference is that some of us stay mad, sad, dismayed and live that way forever, temper tantruming against the universe (talking about myself, lol).  But some of us mature and begin to look at the world/God as NOT a push-button God, but realer and more complex than that (perhaps what the Book of Mormon calls a contrite spirit), and that maybe, maybe, even WE are participating in that God (we are the children of God, we aren't nothing).

You don't find God, or 'believe' in the existence of God, or 'prove' the existence of God.  Rather, you invite God, choose God, and, dare I say, CREATE God--in YOUR life, YOUR corner of the world and universe.  You let your light out of the bushel basket, so that whoever has seen you, and been in your presence, has seen/been in the presence of the Father; because of how YOU live, how YOU love.  In Mormonism, we understand our Heavenly Father to be an Exalted Man.  Meaning, or as I take it . . . we are all in this together.  Just maybe some beings in the universe are farther ahead, and show the way to anyone else who wants to lay hold on it.

As Buddha-ish said: "Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.  After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water."

As Matt Kahn asks: "Who are you when you don't get your way?"

As Genesis presents, channeling God: "Thou mayest choose for thyself."

Edited June 23, 2018 by Maidservant

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them. The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result. Coming from the opposite ends of spectrum we keep playing both hoping for the best result.

Using a competitive metaphor to describe life makes it hard to work the gospel into the metaphor.

[JAHS]

12 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them. The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result. Coming from the opposite ends of spectrum we keep playing both hoping for the best result.

You are starting with a false premise. It is not a game of chance. God doesn't deal cards randomly, He gives each player the cards that He knows will help them grow and test their faith the best. 

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

When you write "it works", it works because of your prayers? When Jesus says "The Kingdom of God is within you". I know many philosophers, scientist say the same thing "The Power is within you". I don't recall ever using power of prayers, when I tried use it it didn't work, seemed waste of time. When I trusted myself either I screwed up (more often than not) or I hit the jackpot but I never attributed my failures to satan, successes to God. It was me or the people I was associated all the way. I don't look higher purpose in life, it's futile....We are going (as species) down the drain, I only hope it won't happen couple more decades. 

And I have to be blunt here...your philosophy is nowhere near to traditional LDS philosophy I know of.....Not that I criticize you, not that I think yours is better or vice versa.

So you asked if your thought process was wrong, I answered and got rep points from multiple real live Mormons who know it works, and yet I am the one with an incorrect thought process.

Every post tells you you are wrong, and I agree with every post so far, but everyone but you is wrong. 

Why did you start the thread?

Go figure. I hope you find your answer.

Edited June 23, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

He gives each player the cards that He knows will help them grow and test their faith the best. 

Some would say that this is a false premise.

[mfbukowski]

19 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Some would say that this is a false premise.

And they would be wrong because such a thing cannot be shown.

And pray tell how MIGHT that be shown?

Can you show that such a belief does not help us in our lives?

Alma 32 creates the rule for determining the truth or falsity of such statements.

Bon chance! 

The answer could be different for every human being. Can science tell us the purpose of life?

It doesn't even ask the question. Why not? Science has nothing to do with examining purpose. Each person creates his own purpose and reason to get out of bed in the morning.

That is what we are discussing here not a scientific hypothesis.

 The only possible way of showing what might be considered truth or falsity is found in Alma 32.  Is the belief sweet to you?

Does it bring you peace and give you a reason to live? By that criteria it is true. I suggest you read some William James on pragmatic truth.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2018 by mfbukowski

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

You are starting with a false premise. It is not a game of chance. God doesn't deal cards randomly, He gives each player the cards that He knows will help them grow and test their faith the best. 

Not sure I agree with that. I think he gives people a situation where they can grow but I think there's also a fair bit of randomness. The frequent  theology I heard (particularly on my mission) that everyone is given exactly the situation they need for their particular progression always seemed implausible if there was anything like free will. More technically it ends up embracing a kind of middle knowledge. Without going into technical criticisms of middle knowledge (read the link) I think the main problem from a Mormon perspective is that God's still limited to the best situation given the range of people's potential choices which may not (and likely would not) line up with the ideal set of tests for someone's progression. Plus middle knowledge's never been even remotely pushed by a prophet. Just theological geeks debating free will and foreknowledge.

Getting back to the original post, I'm not sure cards are a useful analogy here. What people are getting at with the analogy is something like the weak anthropic principle. That is the card allegory gets at the fact that things can be random yet appear meaningful because we assign meaning to the random event. Yet the only reason we note that is because we happen to be at the point where than particular card was dealt. To draw out the analogy any random four cards is equal to any other four cards. If you get a flush, it just seems significant because we decided flushes were important. Further the only time you'd think something was weird was when you got a flush or a straight or some other high value hand. But that means people only notice when something unusual happens which kind of implicitly undermines the significance of what seems significant. 

[CV75]

21 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them. The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result. Coming from the opposite ends of spectrum we keep playing both hoping for the best result.

This is why Brigham Young proscribed card playing.

[Atheist Mormon]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So you asked if your thought process was wrong, I answered and got rep points from multiple real live Mormons who know it works, and yet I am the one with an incorrect thought process.

Every post tells you you are wrong, and I agree with every post so far, but everyone but you is wrong. 

Why did you start the thread?

Go figure. I hope you find your answer.

Every post tells me I'm wrong? I don't think so, If that's the case however it'd be a blatant version of group think. which is bad.

[Atheist Mormon]

9 hours ago, JAHS said:

You are starting with a false premise. It is not a game of chance. God doesn't deal cards randomly, He gives each player the cards that He knows will help them grow and test their faith the best. 

How horrible, if that were the case.......why 80% of planet's people are dealt crappy cards? 

[Atheist Mormon]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Using a competitive metaphor to describe life makes it hard to work the gospel into the metaphor.

Ooooh I'm sorry perhaps I should choose a better one; like "the Book of Job".

[JAHS]

35 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

How horrible, if that were the case.......why 80% of planet's people are dealt crappy cards? 

Well if 80% are dealt crappy cards then it's not random is it? These people are there as a test for us to see if we will help them. In the long run God will see that they eventually get a fair chance at eternal life. 
"And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."
The works of God can be made manifest through the things we do for the less fortunate. 

 

[pogi]

58 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

How horrible, if that were the case.......why 80% of planet's people are dealt crappy cards? 

One persons crap is another persons rich fertilizer.  One person wallows in the crap he is dealt and cries “woe is me” his whole life, the next person uses that crap he was dealt to grow fruit trees to feed himself and others.

You see, along with the crap we are always dealt good seeds.

Edited June 23, 2018 by pogi

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Ooooh I'm sorry perhaps I should choose a better one; like "the Book of Job".

I think the Book of Job is one of the best books in literature if you take out the intro where God and Satan make a bar bet. It takes away from the bits where God says you cannot understand yet why you have endured what you have endured towards the end. If Job had read the intro he could have replied that he did and it was because God wanted to show off with some machismo posturing.

I like to think the intro was added later. It undermines the message of the whole book.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

One persons crap is another persons rich fertilizer.  One person wallows in the crap he is dealt and cries “woe is me” his whole life, the next person uses that crap he was dealt to grow fruit trees to feed himself and others.

You see, along with the crap we are always dealt good seeds.

And that is how the birds end up planting all  kinds of stuff on faraway islands!  Seed and fertilizer in one package.

Wonderful thing to contemplate. 

Kind  of like this thread I  think.....

[Maidservant]

8 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

How horrible, if that were the case.......why 80% of planet's people are dealt crappy cards? 

Actually . . . the statistic is 100 percent.

100 percent of people have a burden, are broken by something, have a challenge, suffer, loss, pain, etc . . . EVERYONE.  NO ONE HAS BEEN SPARED.

The descent is part of the ascent.  The only way to the 'promised land' is through 'the wilderness' (hell).

This is like the seed saying, WHY DID ALL THIS DIRT, POO, and WATER DROWNING GET PUT ON ME!!  There is no sun!  There is no flower and fruit for me!

That's why--because you create your 'heaven' OUT OF your challenge, pathway, journey, material . . . not in spite of it, or barred from 'heaven' because of these things . . . you RISE after passing through your Gethsemane, crucifixion, and tomb.  All are parts of a great whole.  You cannot inhale if you did not first exhale.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

Actually . . . the statistic is 100 percent.

100 percent of people have a burden, are broken by something, have a challenge, suffer, loss, pain, etc . . . EVERYONE.  NO ONE HAS BEEN SPARED.

The descent is part of the ascent.  The only way to the 'promised land' is through 'the wilderness' (hell).

This is like the seed saying, WHY DID ALL THIS DIRT, POO, and WATER DROWNING GET PUT ON ME!!  There is no sun!  There is no flower and fruit for me!

That's why--because you create your 'heaven' OUT OF your challenge, pathway, journey, material . . . not in spite of it, or barred from 'heaven' because of these things . . . you RISE after passing through your Gethsemane, crucifixion, and tomb.  All are parts of a great whole.  You cannot inhale if you did not first exhale.

And it needs to be said, imo, that mortality may be just the soaking and fertilizing part, so it appears that there are plenty who never had the chance to grow into the sunlight.  But that part of pushing out of the soil for most people, I believe, happens in the next part of the process of growing towards the Son (English makes making puns with Sun/Son irresistible, even though I generally hate punning).