Please help me to understand if this thinking process is flawed

[Eek!]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

And it needs to be said, imo, that mortality may be just the soaking and fertilizing part, so it appears that there are plenty who never had the chance to grow into the sunlight.

Many years ago I was studying muscle development (having been genetically short-changed in that area).  I read about a study done at a university in Pennsylvania.  The graduate students were studying muscle atrophy.  They used frogs, and divided them into two groups.  First they measured how far the frogs could jump.  Then the test group had their legs immobilized by bands so they couldn't use them.  The control group had no bands on their legs.

After two weeks, the students cut the bands on the test group's legs to see how much weaker their atrophied muscles had become.  To everyone's surprise, these frogs could jump much farther than they had before!  They easily out-jumped the control group.  The students realized this was because for two solid weeks those frogs had been straining against their bands, with absolutely zero outward effect, but still they had been building up their muscles stronger and stronger.

I wonder if sometimes if we aren't like frogs with our legs tied, when it seems like there is something we simply cannot overcome.  We struggle and struggle and it looks like we make zero progress against our limitations.  But maybe we are developing muscles that we had no idea of.

Imo it's a mistake to judge someone who seems to struggle with no effect against a limitation.  We still need to do our best to help, but we just don't know enough about what's really going on to judge anyone reliably. 

Imo this includes our atheist brother who looks around and sees a world without a God.  He's fighting a hard battle just like all the rest of us, even if the outward form of his battle is different. 

Edited June 23, 2018 by Eek!

[Maidservant]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

And it needs to be said, imo, that mortality may be just the soaking and fertilizing part

Indeed.  Our journey spans eternity, not just mortality.

6 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Many years ago I was studying muscle development (having been genetically short-changed in that area).  I read about a study done at a university in Pennsylvania.  The graduate students were studying muscle atrophy.  They used frogs, and divided them into two groups.  First they measured how far the frogs could jump.  Then the test group had their legs immobilized by bands so they couldn't use them.  The control group had no bands on their legs.

After two weeks, the students cut the bands on the test group's legs to see how much weaker their atrophied muscles had become.  To everyone's surprise, these frogs could jump much farther than they had before!  They easily out-jumped the control group.  The students realized this was because for two solid weeks those frogs had been straining against their bands, with absolutely zero outward effect, but still they had been building up their muscles stronger and stronger.

I wonder if sometimes if we aren't like frogs with our legs tied, when it seems like there is something we simply cannot overcome.  We struggle and struggle and it looks like we make zero progress against our limitations.  But maybe we are developing muscles that we had no idea of.

Imo it's a mistake to judge someone who seems to struggle with no effect against a limitation.  We still need to do our best to help, but we just don't know enough about what's really going on to judge anyone reliably. 

I used to think about a person who is pushing against a rock, and manages to get it to move; and someone else who is pushing against a massive boulder, and never gets it to move.  Who has more faith?  Who could possibly be condemned in this scenario? (Neither).

I've been watching World of Dance, and one of the groups talked about how they trained with ankle weights . . . so when they took them off, their legs had an easy lift, or bouyancy afterwards.  (See YouTube below for their performance, I could not find the extra material where they talked about it, but it is on NBC or Hulu.)

6 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Imo this includes our atheist brother who looks around and sees a world without a God.  He's fighting a hard battle just like all the rest of us, even if the outward form of his battle is different. 

Yep.  Indeed.

 

[changed]

On 6/22/2018 at 10:56 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them. The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result. Coming from the opposite ends of spectrum we keep playing both hoping for the best result.

Are the cards stacked in the believer's favor?  Consider the fate of 11 out of 12 of Jesus' apostles - they were all killed similarly to how Jesus was killed.  I'm not sure believers are given any blessings - not in this life anyway.  People claim they are blessed, and they are just lucky...  I tried sooo hard to be a TBM - and I was not blessed.  temple marriage destroyed (not by me, by a cheating spouse)... kids molested by a bishopric member (who is now in jail)...  so I "did the experiment" and I was not blessed, I was cursed - what to make of that?   The point is supposed to be a test or something, to see if you can handle being a Parent?  I guess you have to be really strong or something to be celestial material... strong enough to watch countless people starve and waste away under oppressive regimes and not do anything even though you are all-powerful?  

I don't get it either.

I do my best to be a decent human being, but who G-d is, or what role religion is supposed to play - Sundays just flat out depress me.

 

Edited June 23, 2018 by changed

[changed]

On 6/22/2018 at 4:52 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

Okay, assuming it's flawed but my experiment / investing time into God was total waste...I feel like once I realized trusting myself and the people I love was better way to go, my life took off with rocket speed. You are right when you respond..."how you've played the game is what really matters.". It really does. What I did was put the faith in myself, read the Agony of Charles Darwin when he realized what the reality he faced, it almost crushed him, in a way I felt like him, it was deeply depressing to realize this would be the only shot I'd have for a sentient life, took me a while to recover and start enjoy the life I have.

I don't know that this is the only shot we have - conservation of mass, of energy, of intelligence, nothing just blinks in and out of existence, everything is eternal - those are the laws of thermodynamics.    I think there is a mind/conscience/spirit/intelligence within us, call it what you will, within us.  I don't claim to know how all the details work out, or which religion is true, but there is something more than meets the eyes to life.  

Perhaps all of the different religious organizations - they are good for community, good to explore thoughts on morality etc.  perhaps they start you down the road, but at some point, everyone needs their own personal light, their own individual beliefs, their own agency to define what they think is best - with no organization about it.  

On earth as it is in heaven?... I now think in heaven as it is on earth - that heaven is as much of a mess as earth is, with different countries, different groups of spirits following different leaders... life goes on, I just don't know which group might fit me best?

Hoping you are able to re-define your beliefs without completely losing them.  I think the spirits are real... I have talked to a few.

Edited June 23, 2018 by changed

[USU78]

Thanks, everybody. The answers here made me more than a little misty.

There's your Mormon aesthetic, Mark. Pain generates beauty because it breaks our hearts, and only through our tears can we see the Son in His beauty.

[Stargazer]

On 6/22/2018 at 6:26 PM, YJacket said:

Your analogy is terribly flawed. A believer doesn't believe the cards are stacked in his favor or that believing in God will give him better cards or that the cards will pay better dividends. 

A believer, believes that faith in God allows him to understand better how the game is played; not that he gets a better hand than the person sitting beside him.  It gives him greater insight into whether the appropriate action is to anty up, take a hit, swap cards, or fold. A believer knows that the goal of the game isn't dependent on how many chips you gain, it's on how you respond to each separate instance of the game-it's in your attitude of playing the game and in appropriate responses necessary to each situation.  A believer ultimately knows that eventually you will walk away from the game and that you can't take your chips with you b/c they are the house chips, so the only thing that really matters is that you learn the rules of the game appropriately, learn how to respond appropriately to the chance of the game and that ultimately the attitude, knowledge, wisdom you have gained when you leave the table and how you've played the game is what really matters.

That's a fine answer, YJacket.

I hate to spoil it with Kenny Rogers, but I will:

 

[smac97]

On 6/22/2018 at 9:56 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "interference" (as in "take part or intervene in an activity without invitation or necessity").  We postulate that God "intervenes" or "intercedes."

Perhaps that perspective could be re-evaluated a bit given the Plan of Salvation and the role of agency, the "Freedom to Choose" that is so integral to the Plan that chapter 4 of the Church's Gospel Principles manual is devoted to it.

As far as whether humanity has been "affected" by God, I think it has.  Consider, for example, the concept of "Natural Law."  Or "Malum in Se."  

On 6/22/2018 at 9:56 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them.

Okay.  This presupposes the absence of God intervening in our lives.  That our lives are nothing more than the product of random chance and confluences of events.

On 6/22/2018 at 9:56 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result. Coming from the opposite ends of spectrum we keep playing both hoping for the best result.

You are proposing a zero sum game, where the believer "wins" but only to your detriment.  He won because you lost.

But what if we are not playing a zero sum game?  What if we are playing a game where everyone can win?  What if winning involves choice, not chance?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Atheist Mormon]

On 6/24/2018 at 4:08 PM, smac97 said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "interference" (as in "take part or intervene in an activity without invitation or necessity").  We postulate that God "intervenes" or "intercedes."

Perhaps that perspective could be re-evaluated a bit given the Plan of Salvation and the role of agency, the "Freedom to Choose" that is so integral to the Plan that chapter 4 of the Church's Gospel Principles manual is devoted to it.

As far as whether humanity has been "affected" by God, I think it has.  Consider, for example, the concept of "Natural Law."  Or "Malum in Se."  

Okay.  This presupposes the absence of God intervening in our lives.  That our lives are nothing more than the product of random chance and confluences of events.

You are proposing a zero sum game, where the believer "wins" but only to your detriment.  He won because you lost.

But what if we are not playing a zero sum game?  What if we are playing a game where everyone can win?  What if winning involves choice, not chance?

Thanks,

-Smac

Smac, None of the names in Wiki's article can qualify any scientific peer preview, or any substantial proof by any means, they are nothing but philosophical, esoteric writings, you should also include Athanasian Creed as well., you are right presuming "That our lives are nothing more than the product of random chance and confluences of events." That is not me, it is evolution trying to improve on it's life ever since there was life on the Planet some 4 billion years ago, that is why more than 99.5 of life is extinct. According to this figure Humans are nothing special.

[Atheist Mormon]

On 6/23/2018 at 6:32 PM, changed said:

 I think there is a mind/conscience/spirit/intelligence within us, call it what you will, within us.  I don't claim to know how all the details work out, or which religion is true, but there is something more than meets the eyes to life.  

I don't believe it but I fervently hope you are right. I'd love to witness it.😊

[Atheist Mormon]

On 6/23/2018 at 4:42 PM, Maidservant said:

That's why--because you create your 'heaven' OUT OF your challenge, pathway, journey, material . . . not in spite of it, or barred from 'heaven' because of these things . . . you RISE after passing through your Gethsemane, crucifixion, and tomb.  All are parts of a great whole.  You cannot inhale if you did not first exhale.

Sorry maidservant......That is the Pathway of Dorothy to reach The wizard of OZ. Most of Humanity comes to this world in worst, wretched ways possible with no opportunity of any kind in sight. It was never not up to me to be born in US instead of Bangladesh.

[RevTestament]

On 6/22/2018 at 8:56 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them. The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result.  

God is not a respecter of persons.

[Atheist Mormon]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

God is not a respecter of persons.

That is your imagination; He never came to me whispering as such. I know there was time this was enforced multiple times; They had either guns or swords. Now we have a much better non_violent mediums to enforce this; all our phones are equipped with video and photo apparatus.

[RevTestament]

35 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

That is your imagination; He never came to me whispering as such. I know there was time this was enforced multiple times; They had either guns or swords. Now we have a much better non_violent mediums to enforce this; all our phones are equipped with video and photo apparatus.

Rather, I think it is your imagination in play here:

On 6/22/2018 at 8:56 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

All my life long I tried to understand how the faith in God governs the laws of Universe , so far I am unable to explain or justify the events in my life or humanity at large being affected by a Supernatural interference. To abbreviate my discussion I will use a metaphor of a deck of playing cards; I am sitting on a table with a believer. From my perspective when dealer shuffles the cards all 52 of them placed randomly, I won't know what I get until the cards are in my hand, they could be good or bad or very mediocre, I have no control over them. The believer OTOH thinks the cards are stacked on his favor because he has upper hand for believing God & keeping commandments, he keeps hoping these cards eventually will pay dividends and me confident in randomness of outcome hope for a better result. Coming from the opposite ends of spectrum we keep playing both hoping for the best result.

Many have died for God. Did they believe they had the cards "stacked in their favor?" I think you presume a bit much. You think in earthly terms.

[Atheist Mormon]

5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Rather, I think it is your imagination in play here:

Many have died for God. Did they believe they had the cards "stacked in their favor?" I think you presume a bit much. You think in earthly terms.

Of course I think on earthly terms, live every day without presumptions.