Going to the temple for the first time/handbook

[Rain]

My daughter has the ok to go to the temple for the first time for endowments. She is 20 and is not getting married or going on a mission. She has gone to the temple nearly every week for the past 4 years and often before then. She fasted and prayed about going and went to the bishop. He had her go through temple prep and come to him again. She was planning on going in April and got the ok, but after some discussion we put it off until July because of schedules etc. So her bishop is having her go to temple prep a second time. She is struggling with that because it seems so basic to her and she feels she would get more out of gospel doctrine.

Her friend was planning going through at the end of May and had the ok. She is not engaged yet, but is in a serious relationship. Because she is not officially engaged yet the bishop is having her postpone going through the temple.

So...what does the bishop's handbook say about women/people going to the temple? Not that they would fight with the bishop on these things.  It is just interesting to me that the 2 of them are some of young people I find most prepared to go through the temple verses all their friends going on missions and getting married. I'm not understanding why one needs the classes again and the other has to postpone till official engagement. I know years ago things changed about women going. 

So what does it officially say?

[BillyandJane]

CHB #1 p12 "Single members in their late teens or early 20s who have not received their mission call or who aren't engaged to be married in the temple should not be recommended to receive their own endowment...Worthy  single members who have not received their endowments in connection with a mission or a marriage may become eligible to receive the endowment when the bishop and stake president determine they are sufficiently mature to understand and keep the sacred covenants made in the temple."  

So, the girls are at the mercy of the the inspiration their leaders have on their behalf.  

 

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

My daughter has the ok to go to the temple for the first time for endowments. She is 20 and is not getting married or going on a mission. She has gone to the temple nearly every week for the past 4 years and often before then. She fasted and prayed about going and went to the bishop. He had her go through temple prep and come to him again. She was planning on going in April and got the ok, but after some discussion we put it off until July because of schedules etc. So her bishop is having her go to temple prep a second time. She is struggling with that because it seems so basic to her and she feels she would get more out of gospel doctrine.

A common critique of the temple is that the individual going for the first time doesn't understand it or appreciate, or that they do not feel comfortable about it.  I could see a bishop feeling that a second run through the curriculum is a possibly helpful thing, particularly if there is time for it.

By the way, here are a few good prep books:

• Prepare Now for the Temple: An Essential Guide for Young Adult Sisters, by Brittany Mangus
• Your Endowment, by Mark Shields
• Preparing for Your Endowment, by Cory B. Jensen
• Understanding the Symbols, Covenants, and Ordinances of the Temple, by Amy Hardison
• Endowed with Power: How Temple Symbols Guide Us to Christ's Atonement: Temple Symbolism and the Atonement of Christ, by Robert Line
• Temple Worship: 20 Truths That Will Bless Your Life, by Andrew Skinner

Quote

So...what does the bishop's handbook say about women/people going to the temple? 

BillyandJane quoted the relevant portion.  It's from section 3.3.3 of Handbook 1.  A bit was left out, though (probably to comply with the Fair Use doctrine).

Quote

Not that they would fight with the bishop on these things.  It is just interesting to me that the 2 of them are some of young people I find most prepared to go through the temple verses all their friends going on missions and getting married. I'm not understanding why one needs the classes again and the other has to postpone till official engagement. I know years ago things changed about women going. 

So what does it officially say?

There are further guidelines not quoted by BillyandJane in section 3.3.3.  Have you asked your bishop to let you read that section?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 14, 2018 by smac97

[mfbukowski]

I have been doing first time endowments for 15 years now in the temple and heartily endorse smac's approach above

The more the preparation the better

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by mfbukowski

[smac97]

36 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I have been doing first time endowments for 15 years now in the temple and heartily endorse smac's approach above

The more the preparation the better

I only had about 3 weeks between getting out of the Army and going into the MTC.  I spent most of those few days sleeping and buying things for my mission.  My "temple prep" consisted of a few thoughts from my father as we drove from to the Provo Temple (20 minutes or so).  He gave me some pretty solid, but also very brief, advice.  

So I went to the temple with virtually no prep.  I was fortunate to have my parents there with me.  I trusted them, and they answered all of my questions while we were in there.  Then I went into the MTC, and attended the temple weekly.  That was wonderful, as I began to feel more at ease with it, and more curious about it, and more intent on understanding it.

Then I shipped out to Taiwan, and my experience of seeking to better understand the temple slowed down quite a bit.  It was hard enough to go through in English.  Going through in Mandarin Chinese was quite a different experience.  I also was only able to go to the temple in Taiwan once a month, and even then only for about half of my mission (10-11 times total).

Then I came home and began to go to the temple regularly.  My parents, particularly my father, were very good resources for helping me improve my understanding of it.  But I still have a very long way to go.

Looking back, I think it would have been helpful to have been over-prepared for the temple, rather than somewhat under-prepared (which I was).  I am reminded of a bit of dialogue in "The Mountain of the Lord," a 1993 film produced by the Church about the building of the Salt Lake Temple. The conversation is between President Woodruff and a (fictional) reporter from the eastern United States who had traveled to Utah to cover the dedication of the temple. This film, including this scene, is on YouTube (for context, start at about 51:20 and go to about 58:08):

Quote

Reporter: Might I ask you a difficult question?

President Woodruff: Please.

Reporter: Theoretically speaking, is it possible that even I might enter into the temple and receive these ordinances? 

President Woodruff: The temple is for anyone who is living in accordance with the commandments that God has given with respect to the temple.

Reporter: One doesn't just walk into the temple.

President Woodruff: No.  Even in the days of Solomon's Temple, there were certain laws of purification that had to be met before one was allowed to enter the temple.  Today, even those who are members of the Church must first spiritually prepare themselves and be worthy to receive these blessings.

Reporter: And this is because those who are not properly prepared, such as myself, might not fully grasp their meaning?

President Woodruff: In their fullness, the realities of eternity are beyond our mortal capacity to comprehend.  These covenants are given by revelation, and they can only be understood by revelation.  Just as in the ancient temples we spoke of earlier, the temple is a place to which the Saints can go and feel they are coming into the presence of the Lord.  Very important truths about their relationship to him, and the purpose of life.  This is why we build temples.

The things of the temple “are given by revelation, and they can only be understood by revelation.”  That is a good approach.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 14, 2018 by smac97

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I only had about 3 weeks between getting out of the Army and going into the MTC.  I spent most of those few days sleeping and buying things for my mission.  My "temple prep" consisted of a few thoughts from my father as we drove from to the Provo Temple (20 minutes or so).  He gave me some pretty solid, but also very brief, advice.  

So I went to the temple with virtually no prep.  I was fortunate to have my parents there with me.  I trusted them, and they answered all of my questions while we were in there.  Then I went into the MTC, and attended the temple weekly.  That was wonderful, as I began to feel more at ease with it, and more curious about it, and more intent on understanding it.

Then I shipped out to Taiwan, and my experience of seeking to better understand the temple slowed down quite a bit.  It was hard enough to go through in English.  Going through in Mandarin Chinese was quite a different experience.  I also was only able to go to the temple in Taiwan once a month, and even then only for about half of my mission (10-11 times total).

Then I came home and began to go to the temple regularly.  My parents, particularly my father, were very good resources for helping me improve my understanding of it.  But I still have a very long way to go.

Looking back, I think it would have been helpful to have been over-prepared for the temple, rather than somewhat under-prepared (which I was).  I am reminded of a bit of dialogue in "The Mountain of the Lord," a 1993 film produced by the Church about the building of the Salt Lake Temple. The conversation is between President Woodruff and a (fictional) reporter from the eastern United States who had traveled to Utah to cover the dedication of the temple. This film, including this scene, is on YouTube (for context, start at about 51:20 and go to about 58:08):

The things of the temple “are given by revelation, and they can only be understood by revelation.”  That is a good approach.

Thanks,

-Smac

Totally agree.

I was a new convert and totally unprepared. Quite honestly my first time through I was totally freaked out.

I took everything a literally and thought "is this all there is? Are you kidding me all this build-up to nothing?"

I had no concept of the multiple layered symbolism which is possible to understand through revelation. Since then I have made a policy of being able to tell others for their first time that every single thing every step every Nuance every thing one sees and hears, touches and feels has multiple multiple layers of symbolism and the first time through it's like trying to drink from a fire hose. There is no way anyone could even begin to comprehend it the first time.

I tell them to just relax and let the spirit flow over themselves not worry about anything and simply concentrate on feelings.

After years of attendance it slowly starts to congeal, through revelation, into a message of the most profound nature which could not be taught any other way.

I hear with profound sadness of people who go once and that's it and never return.

That is a horrible tragedy in my opinion.

It is like throwing away a PhD degree in the gospel without a second thought.

[Rain]

5 hours ago, BillyandJane said:

CHB #1 p12 "Single members in their late teens or early 20s who have not received their mission call or who aren't engaged to be married in the temple should not be recommended to receive their own endowment...Worthy  single members who have not received their endowments in connection with a mission or a marriage may become eligible to receive the endowment when the bishop and stake president determine they are sufficiently mature to understand and keep the sacred covenants made in the temple."  

So, the girls are at the mercy of the the inspiration their leaders have on their behalf.  

 

Thank you!

[Rain]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

A common critique of the temple is that the individual going for the first time doesn't understand it or appreciate, or that they do not feel comfortable about it.  I could see a bishop feeling that a second run through the curriculum is a possibly helpful thing, particularly if there is time for it.

By the way, here are a few good prep books:

• Prepare Now for the Temple: An Essential Guide for Young Adult Sisters, by Brittany Mangus
• Your Endowment, by Mark Shields
• Preparing for Your Endowment, by Cory B. Jensen
• Understanding the Symbols, Covenants, and Ordinances of the Temple, by Amy Hardison
• Endowed with Power: How Temple Symbols Guide Us to Christ's Atonement: Temple Symbolism and the Atonement of Christ, by Robert Line
• Temple Worship: 20 Truths That Will Bless Your Life, by Andrew Skinner

BillyandJane quoted the relevant portion.  It's from section 3.3.3 of Handbook 1.  A bit was left out, though (probably to comply with the Fair Use doctrine).

There are further guidelines not quoted by BillyandJane in section 3.3.3.  Have you asked your bishop to let you read that section?

Thanks,

-Smac

I have not asked. I just got word tonight about the friend having to postpone so I started wondering

My daughter has read or is currently reading some of those books.

I too, felt unprepared. My entire preparation was the bishop telling me to talk to my parents about what I should know and my dad saying, "read the Pearl of Great Price". 

I, like Mark, was shocked. I kept telling myself that my now husband went through and he was ok with it and so I could be too. He was on his mission at the time or I would have talked more with him. The endowment changed when I was on my mission so I only went a few times before that and was never able to get more understanding of what changed before it did..

Unfortunately I have yet to get past how uncomfortable it made me even after really working on that. I have learned many things about symbolism etc from the Spirit, but I cannot shake the unease. So I have done my best to help my daughter understand about the temple. I have helped her to develop her own love for the temple. I am open with her about what goes on to the extent I feel is ok sharing with her. 

Spiritually, I know few people, grown adults included, that are more mature. She feasts on spiritual things. She has a great love for her ancestors and so compassionate. She's just ready.

I guess what I am questioning what is in the handbook - what makes someone getting married or going on a mission more ready for the temple? She has been willing and prayerful and has fasted about going on a mission, but received a no answer, so it is not like she is not willing to make that kind of commitment.

 

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Totally agree.

I was a new convert and totally unprepared. Quite honestly my first time through I was totally freaked out.

I was a convert, possibly not as new as you. I was 20, with a brand-new mission call, a convert of five years, but with only three years of activity.  And they didn't have temple prep classes back then.  I think I got recommended to read "The House of the Lord" by Elder Talmage, and I might have read it.

I don't know why, exactly, but I wasn't freaked out at all -- I didn't know what to expect, but perhaps my imagination (which can be very lively) was having the time of its life.  I loved it!

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I took everything a literally and thought "is this all there is? Are you kidding me all this build-up to nothing?"

Wow, it wasn't like this for me at all.  There was just so much, and though at that time in my life I didn't truly appreciate the heights and depths of it all, it just felt like this was the equivalent of the Marianas Trench as to meaning, and I was just dipping my face past the surface.

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I had no concept of the multiple layered symbolism which is possible to understand through revelation. Since then I have made a policy of being able to tell others for their first time that every single thing every step every Nuance every thing one sees and hears, touches and feels has multiple multiple layers of symbolism and the first time through it's like trying to drink from a fire hose. There is no way anyone could even begin to comprehend it the first time.

Absolutely!  

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I tell them to just relax and let the spirit flow over themselves not worry about anything and simply concentrate on feelings.

After years of attendance it slowly starts to congeal, through revelation, into a message of the most profound nature which could not be taught any other way.

I hear with profound sadness of people who go once and that's it and never return.

That is a horrible tragedy in my opinion.

It is like throwing away a PhD degree in the gospel without a second thought.

Totally.

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Rain said:

I have not asked. I just got word tonight about the friend having to postpone so I started wondering

My daughter has read or is currently reading some of those books.

I too, felt unprepared. My entire preparation was the bishop telling me to talk to my parents about what I should know and my dad saying, "read the Pearl of Great Price". 

I, like Mark, was shocked. I kept telling myself that my now husband went through and he was ok with it and so I could be too. He was on his mission at the time or I would have talked more with him. The endowment changed when I was on my mission so I only went a few times before that and was never able to get more understanding of what changed before it did..

Unfortunately I have yet to get past how uncomfortable it made me even after really working on that. I have learned many things about symbolism etc from the Spirit, but I cannot shake the unease. So I have done my best to help my daughter understand about the temple. I have helped her to develop her own love for the temple. I am open with her about what goes on to the extent I feel is ok sharing with her. 

Spiritually, I know few people, grown adults included, that are more mature. She feasts on spiritual things. She has a great love for her ancestors and so compassionate. She's just ready.

I guess what I am questioning what is in the handbook - what makes someone getting married or going on a mission more ready for the temple? She has been willing and prayerful and has fasted about going on a mission, but received a no answer, so it is not like she is not willing to make that kind of commitment.

 

All I can suggest is that you speak to the bishop. A no answer is a no answer.

There may be other issues here.

Children become adults and there Comes A Time Beyond which we can't help them. Dictated please excuse weird capitalization.

Edited May 14, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Storm Rider]

13 hours ago, BillyandJane said:

CHB #1 p12 "Single members in their late teens or early 20s who have not received their mission call or who aren't engaged to be married in the temple should not be recommended to receive their own endowment...Worthy  single members who have not received their endowments in connection with a mission or a marriage may become eligible to receive the endowment when the bishop and stake president determine they are sufficiently mature to understand and keep the sacred covenants made in the temple."  

So, the girls are at the mercy of the the inspiration their leaders have on their behalf.  

 

1

I know it is nice to make girls victims and it is the rage of society, but it is so much easier to just report truth rather than spin things.  The truth is that both young men and women who are in their late teens and early twenties that are not going on a mission or are not engaged are both held to a greater scrutiny to determine if they are mature enough to understand the covenants they will make in the temple.

So much simpler and without any rancor. 

[Storm Rider]

7 hours ago, Rain said:

I have not asked. I just got word tonight about the friend having to postpone so I started wondering

My daughter has read or is currently reading some of those books.

I too, felt unprepared. My entire preparation was the bishop telling me to talk to my parents about what I should know and my dad saying, "read the Pearl of Great Price". 

I, like Mark, was shocked. I kept telling myself that my now husband went through and he was ok with it and so I could be too. He was on his mission at the time or I would have talked more with him. The endowment changed when I was on my mission so I only went a few times before that and was never able to get more understanding of what changed before it did..

Unfortunately I have yet to get past how uncomfortable it made me even after really working on that. I have learned many things about symbolism etc from the Spirit, but I cannot shake the unease. So I have done my best to help my daughter understand about the temple. I have helped her to develop her own love for the temple. I am open with her about what goes on to the extent I feel is ok sharing with her. 

Spiritually, I know few people, grown adults included, that are more mature. She feasts on spiritual things. She has a great love for her ancestors and so compassionate. She's just ready.

I guess what I am questioning what is in the handbook - what makes someone getting married or going on a mission more ready for the temple? She has been willing and prayerful and has fasted about going on a mission, but received a no answer, so it is not like she is not willing to make that kind of commitment.

4

My niece, a 21-year-old, was not going on a mission and was not engaged or dating anyone seriously went to the temple recently and got her endowment. She attended the temple a few times afterward and was very active and committed to finding a mate that would also go to the temple with her.  She found a great guy and has married him.  During their relatively short courtship (he is not a member) he talked to the missionaries and attended church with her.  

Now they are married and neither one has stepped foot inside the church.  

I don't care how wonderful a young, single person is or how committed they are to God they are still only half of life's puzzle. Once they get married is when the rubber meets the road. 

I would strongly counsel any single, young person who is not going on a mission to delay going to the temple until they are married or until they have gotten older. Just my opinion. 

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

I guess what I am questioning what is in the handbook - what makes someone getting married or going on a mission more ready for the temple? She has been willing and prayerful and has fasted about going on a mission, but received a no answer, so it is not like she is not willing to make that kind of commitment.

You live some of the Covenants of the temple in Missionary service so it is seen as vital. It also has to be done for marriage. If one is not willing to serve a mission (males only here) it is unwise to be out under these Covenants you are already consciously choosing not to obey. For sisters there is more nuance. The cold reality is that 18 to around 25 is where a lot of members go inactive. If possible a little seasoning time to make sure their dedication to the gospel survives young adulthood before taking on Covenants.

[smac97]

10 hours ago, Rain said:

 I guess what I am questioning what is in the handbook - what makes someone getting married or going on a mission more ready for the temple? She has been willing and prayerful and has fasted about going on a mission, but received a no answer, so it is not like she is not willing to make that kind of commitment.

I wonder if it is a matter of one's situation after going through the temple. A person who goes to the temple in order to get married will be in a marital relationship, and usually with someone who has previously been to the temple. So there will be a stabilizing element there. Someone who goes to the temple in anticipation of serving a mission will be spending the next 18 months to 2 years in a structured and stable spiritual environment, and hence also be in a position to better understand the temple. 

In contrast, the situation of a young person going through the temple not to serve a mission and not to get married is something of an unknown ( or, rather, their situation very much depends on the individuals family and personal circumstances). This is perhaps why the handbook requires Bishops and stake presidents to ensure that the individual is spiritually prepared to go to the temple, and also will be in a good stable environment after going to the temple.

Edited May 14, 2018 by smac97

[mnn727]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Totally agree.

I was a new convert and totally unprepared. Quite honestly my first time through I was totally freaked out.

 

Me too, I almost left the Church over it. My "Temple Prep class" was in the van on the way to the Temple with the (then) EQ President who thought everything about the Temple was wonderful and in no way would be strange to an adult convert.

[MiserereNobis]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

After years of attendance it slowly starts to congeal, through revelation, into a message of the most profound nature which could not be taught any other way.

This is how I feel about Tridentine High Mass. I've taken some Catholic friends who don't want to go back because of the Latin, or the vestments, or the detailed moving of things on the altar, etc. 

When it comes to any highly symbolic ritual, you've got to go through it multiple times with a mind and heart open to symbolism.

ETA: I say this directed mainly at Mark because he knows the Tridentine Mass.

Edited May 14, 2018 by MiserereNobis

[mfbukowski]

7 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is how I feel about Tridentine High Mass. I've taken some Catholic friends who don't want to go back because of the Latin, or the vestments, or the detailed moving of things on the altar, etc. 

When it comes to any highly symbolic ritual, you've got to go through it multiple times with a mind and heart open to symbolism.

ETA: I say this directed mainly at Mark because he knows the Tridentine Mass.

Oh yeah, totally agree.

There are so many similarities between the endowment and Tridentine mass I have absolutely no doubt they have the same source. 

Joseph could not possibly have known that.

I knew of one former Catholic priest who was an LDS temple worker, and we had some amazing discussions.

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

I, like Mark, was shocked. I kept telling myself that my now husband went through and he was ok with it and so I could be too. He was on his mission at the time or I would have talked more with him. The endowment changed when I was on my mission so I only went a few times before that and was never able to get more understanding of what changed before it did..

I think that this is why they make such a point about preparation for the temple, instead of just tossing people in!

What changed wasn't all that important, in my opinion.  They removed some extraneous elements that were, in my opinion, subject to misunderstanding.

3 hours ago, Rain said:

Unfortunately I have yet to get past how uncomfortable it made me even after really working on that. I have learned many things about symbolism etc from the Spirit, but I cannot shake the unease. So I have done my best to help my daughter understand about the temple. I have helped her to develop her own love for the temple. I am open with her about what goes on to the extent I feel is ok sharing with her. 

Spiritually, I know few people, grown adults included, that are more mature. She feasts on spiritual things. She has a great love for her ancestors and so compassionate. She's just ready.

It is unfortunate that you are uncomfortable with something that is inherently deeply spiritual and beautiful.  If I had an idea on how to resolve this for you, I'd give it, but unfortunately my experience doesn't resemble yours at all, and thus I do not understand it well enough.  Have you considered speaking with a member of your local temple presidency, or even the matron?  I can't guarantee it, but perhaps they might be able to offer some guidance.  

3 hours ago, Rain said:

I guess what I am questioning what is in the handbook - what makes someone getting married or going on a mission more ready for the temple? She has been willing and prayerful and has fasted about going on a mission, but received a no answer, so it is not like she is not willing to make that kind of commitment.

 

Two things.  Getting married in the temple doesn't necessarily make one more mature, but you can't be sealed in the temple without the endowment.  Temple sealing requires the endowment as the prerequisite.  The other thing is that the endowment is specifically preparatory and required for serving a mission.  There is no urgent need for the endowment for someone who is doing neither, and thus it is reasonable to be more circumspect with who receives it.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

If I had an idea on how to resolve this for you, I'd give it, but unfortunately my experience doesn't resemble yours at all, and thus I do not understand it well enough.

This is exactly how I feel. I walked into the temple the very first time and felt, in every aspect, like I'd 'gone home'. Everything new felt immediately familiar and comforting. This leaves me completely incapable of knowing how to help others whose experiences haven't been like that, and I wish it didn't.

One of the things I am passionate about is good temple prep. My formal prep was a joke. I took a class offered by the stake where I was studying (in America). It claimed to be all six temple prep lessons rolled into one Sunday afternoon. Instead, it was little more than a Sunday school class on the Plan of Salvation. Thankfully, I'd been doing my own temple prep for a couple of years in eager anticipation.

I have taught temple prep (just one-on-one in my home) for nearly all of the young men who have left on missions in our ward the past six years. Every one of them has immediately loved the temple. The last one I taught was the most clueless of the lot. In the first lesson, I asked him to tell me what he knew about Adam and Eve. His response: 'I've heard of them, but I don't know who they are'. By his request, I then attended the temple with him for his endowment. He didn't want to leave. I actually stayed in the Celestial Room with him for about 45 minutes after his parents had left, and we just enjoyed the Spirit and a whispered conversation on sacred things. I was so glad.

One of his peers refused to have any temple prep lessons at all. His elder brother later told me the endowment left him in shock. So sad.

[mfbukowski]

In teaching temple prep, I have described the sacred gestures made as a kind of semaphore code, a sort of alphabet of symbology, which carries within it a further understanding of the Gospel

I have found that that encourages further contemplation of every nuance, and an eagerness to learn more by revelation.

Nowadays some may not know what semaphore code is.

https://goo.gl/images/7FC6jB

 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

In teaching temple prep, I have described the sacred gestures made as a kind of semaphore code, a sort of alphabet of symbology, which carries within it a further understanding of the Gospel

I have found that that encourages further contemplation of every nuance, and an eagerness to learn more by revelation.

Nowadays some may not know what semaphore code is.

You mean they never saw this film classic:

 

[mfbukowski]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You mean they never saw this film classic:

 

You sir are CERTIFIABLY  WACKO!

(A technical term) 🤣

Where do you find this stuff!!!???  

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You sir are CERTIFIABLY  WACKO!

(A technical term) 🤣

Where do you find this stuff!!!???  

Watched way too much Monty Python as a kid. It warps your mind.....in a good way.

[Rain]

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

All I can suggest is that you speak to the bishop. A no answer is a no answer.

There may be other issues here.

Children become adults and there Comes A Time Beyond which we can't help them. Dictated please excuse weird capitalization.

It's really not a big deal to me. Mostly just curious about it and it has me wondering. My daughter is ok with it even though she would rather be in Gospel Doctrine. 

Besides she is going to a singles ward and has a different bishop. And in all honesty I think that if she is mature enough to go to the temple then it is her place to ask. Not mine. She is an adult and she has no problem with being open with her feelings and thoughts. 

[Rain]

15 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I know it is nice to make girls victims and it is the rage of society, but it is so much easier to just report truth rather than spin things.  The truth is that both young men and women who are in their late teens and early twenties that are not going on a mission or are not engaged are both held to a greater scrutiny to determine if they are mature enough to understand the covenants they will make in the temple.

So much simpler and without any rancor. 

I may be wrong, but I think you may be misunderstanding BillyandJane. I think what is meant by "girls" is specifically my daughter and her friend, not a girls are picked on kind of thing.