Did Mckenna Denson Meet With Thomas S. Monson After MTC?

[smac97]

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

Quote

Even if limited to what he admits to on his own, it is abuse imo.

Yes.  (And thanks for all the additional details too).

So, the question is.....if the statute of limitations have run out regarding the rape, does it really matter when it comes to holding the church responsible (for them placing Bishop in this leadership role at the MTC) whether or not he actually raped Denson or only abused her in the basement? 

I think the idea is that the Church knew Joseph Bishop was a sexual predator before his calling to be president of the MTC.  It is that purported knowledge that, if established, would inculpate the Church, since it called someone it knew to be a sexual predator into a position requiring tremendous trustworthiness.

The problem is that there is no competent evidence that the Church knew Joseph Bishop was a sexual predator before his calling to be president of the MTC.  Lots of guesses.  Lots of I-wouldn't-put-it-past-him surmises.  But no evidence.

Quote

Or do you believe it comes down to only punishing Bishop and not church leaders?

In your view, which Church leaders should be "punished?"  And for what?

Quote

If so, I and many others wonder why the church leaders never held any sort of church disciplinary proceedings for him or didn't warn local leaders & members about him?  That's negligence right there, IMO.

It seems like the Church didn't know about allegations against Bishop until 2010.  Discipline was considered, but not imposed due to evidentiary problems.  

So what "negligent" acts do you have in mind (besides Leavitt)?  Who negligently did what?  When?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 2, 2018 by smac97

[CA Steve]

Looks like to me not all CFR's are created equal.

Edited May 2, 2018 by CA Steve

[ALarson]

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

In your view, which Church leaders should be "punished?"  And for what?

I never stated that I believe the Church leaders should be punished.

I was asking Calm a question because she had stated that she believes Bishop did abuse Denson.  So I was asking her if she believed it was Bishop who should be punished or held accountable (and not include any church leaders regarding this).

Edited May 2, 2018 by ALarson

[Gray]

30 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Well, no.  2+2=4 is a fact, not an interpretation.

Donald Trump is currently the president of the United States.  That is a fact, not an interpretation.

Zac Efron's performance in High School Musical 3 should have earned him an Oscar.  That is . . . something else.

Thanks,

-Smac

I'll leave this argument to its primary caretaker on the forum. I was mostly just amusing myself. Carry on.

[smac97]

Just now, ALarson said:

I never stated that I believe the Church leaders should be punished.

Ah.  I misread you.  I apologize.

Just now, ALarson said:

I was asking Calm a question because she had stated that she believes that Bishop did abuse Denson. 

I believe he did, but not rape or attempted rape.

Just now, ALarson said:

So I was asking her if she believed it was Bishop who should be punished or held accountable.

From the Church handbook:

Quote

6.7.2 - When a Disciplinary Council May Be Necessary

Serious Transgression

Formal Church discipline may be necessary for any member who commits a serious transgression. As used here, serious transgression is defined as a deliberate and major offense against morality. It includes (but is not limited to) attempted murder, forcible rape...

So a disciplinary council may be on the table given his admissions to the BYU Police, and possibly because of some of the things he said in the recording.

Whether he should be disciplined or not, though, would seem to be left to the discretion of those who have authority over him.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ALarson]

Just now, smac97 said:

Ah.  I misread you.  I apologize.

I believe he did, but not rape or attempted rape.

From the Church handbook:

So a disciplinary council may be on the table given his admissions to the BYU Police, and possibly because of some of the things he said in the recording.

Whether he should be disciplined or not, though, would seem to be left to the discretion of those who have authority over him.

 

"May be"?   I'll be shocked if this doesn't happen and I know many members will be watching.  At the very least, a court should be held.  There is certainly enough evidence now for that to take place.

I doubt anything will happen though until this case is settled.  Otherwise it would look like the church knew he was guilty or at least suspected guilt.

[smac97]

47 minutes ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

I don’t know how much discussion there has been of the fact that Denson stated in the Bishop audio recording that her pregnancy with the daughter she gave up for adoption was the result of a rape, whereas the complaint in the lawsuit says the baby was “conceived out of wedlock.”  

That's technically true.  And if the baby was conceived via rape, that has no bearing on the allegations against Bishop.

47 minutes ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

(Theoretically, I guess both could be true, but that’s sort of like comparing rape to “extramarital sex.”). I’ve read that the biological daughter is now 35, so Denson was roughly 20 when she gave birth—roughly five years after she joined the church at 15.  It certainly wasn’t uncommon in the early 80s for young ladies in the church to become pregnant and give birth, but what ~was~ uncommon was for such a young lady to want to serve a mission.

Yes, I was surprised by that at first.

47 minutes ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

Based on the recent experiences of a young man in my ward who fathered a child out of wedlock (who then was given up for adoption, meaning the young man had no child-support obligations), I don’t think anyone who’s parented a child, male ~or~ female, would be allowed to serve a proselytizing mission these days.  

Unless, I think, the pregnancy occurred because of rape.  The girl/woman would be blameless under such circumstances, all the more so if she chooses to carry her baby - fathered by a rapist - to term and then give it up for adoption.  That appears to be what happened here.  I can see the Church not wanting to "punish" Denson for something about which she bore not blame or culpability.

47 minutes ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

And someone with mental-health issues ~and~ a history of having a child out of wedlock would seem to be doubly disqualified under present guidelines.

The mental health issues are another issue.  I am not sure what the Church's guidelines were back then.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Take care Calm, I hope you get the help you need. And maybe we should not rely on you too much for info, so you get to ease up on posts until you're back/side is better.

Back feels great, going to keep it that way...

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

"May be"?   

My bad.  I should have looked at the next section (6.7.3):

Quote

6.7.3    When a Disciplinary Council Is Mandatory

A disciplinary council must be held when evidence suggests that a member may have committed any of the following transgressions.

...

Serious Transgression While Holding a Prominent Church Position

A disciplinary council must be held for a member who commits a serious transgression while holding one of the following prominent Church positions: Area Seventy; temple, mission, or stake president; patriarch; or bishop (but not branch president). The term serious transgression is defined in 6.7.2.

Transgressor Who Is a Predator

A disciplinary council must be held for a member who commits a serious transgression that shows him to be a predator with tendencies that present any kind of serious threat to other persons.

That second one seems a bit iffy, given his age and health.  But president of the MTC plainly falls within the ambit of "prominent church position."

I stand corrected.

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I'll be shocked if this doesn't happen and I know many members will be watching.  At the very least, a court should be held. 

I think you are correct.

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

There is certainly enough evidence now for that to take place.

And he was in a "prominent church position."  And since there are purportedly at least two victims, he may be viewed as a "predator."

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I doubt anything will happen though until this case is settled.  Otherwise it would look like the church knew he was guilty or at least suspected guilt.

Yep.  That's probably what will happen.  From the handbook:

Quote

6.10.12    - Procedures in Exceptional Circumstances

Conduct Examined in Criminal or Civil Courts

Normally a disciplinary council is not held to consider conduct being examined by a criminal trial court until the court has reached a final judgment. In some cases it may also be appropriate to delay disciplinary proceedings until the period of appeal has expired or the appeal has been rejected.

...

When a member is convicted of a crime or found liable in a civil action for fraud or other dishonest or immoral conduct, the judgment of the criminal or civil court is a sufficient basis for holding a Church disciplinary council. A finding of guilt or liability in a court may be considered as evidence of guilt or liability for purposes of Church discipline. Reliable evidence submitted to a court may also be considered in a Church disciplinary council.

The handbook mentions "criminal" proceedings, but I think waiting until this matter is resolved, even though it's a civil case, is appropriate.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

I don’t know how much discussion there has been of the fact that Denson stated in the Bishop audio recording that her pregnancy with the daughter she gave up for adoption was the result of a rape, whereas the complaint in the lawsuit says the baby was “conceived out of wedlock.”  (Theoretically, I guess both could be true, but that’s sort of like comparing rape to “extramarital sex.”). I’ve read that the biological daughter is now 35, so Denson was roughly 20 when she gave birth—roughly five years after she joined the church at 15.  It certainly wasn’t uncommon in the early 80s for young ladies in the church to become pregnant and give birth, but what ~was~ uncommon was for such a young lady to want to serve a mission. Based on the recent experiences of a young man in my ward who fathered a child out of wedlock (who then was given up for adoption, meaning the young man had no child-support obligations), I don’t think anyone who’s parented a child, male ~or~ female, would be allowed to serve a proselytizing mission these days.  And someone with mental-health issues ~and~ a history of having a child out of wedlock would seem to be doubly disqualified under present guidelines.

CFR she said the baby was result of rape...

ach drawn back in

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I never stated that I believe the Church leaders should be punished.

I was asking Calm a question because she had stated that she believes Bishop did abuse Denson.  So I was asking her if she believed it was Bishop who should be punished or held accountable (and not include any church leaders regarding this).

 Dictating.

 Yes, the ship admitted to asking a woman to expose yourself, herself, so  sounds like church discipline should occur, if it hasn't already, which it hasn't as far as I can tell unless bishop is lying lying 

So I can answer this in case I had it, if church leaders are found culpable in other words they knew of abuse and do nothing,   Then underneath the siccation, ignore that, and investigation should be done and liability should be done,  but I am unaware of how aiding and abetting plays out in terms of church discipline. 

 Dictation isn't accurate, annoyed, sorry if dropping out leaves questions unanswered

Edited May 2, 2018 by Calm

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

CFR she said the baby was result of rape...

ach drawn back in

Page 28 of the transcript:

Quote

You gave me permission to go to the temple because I had been raped and had a baby out of wedlock. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Page 28 of the transcript:

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks,  funny how we can read things, I read that as raped by her father and later had a baby out of wedlock by someone else. 

 Oh nice, dictation works if I speak very slowly. 

 Not that I think rape requires forgiveness, but she seemed as a missionary to have doubts about her worthiness and at first  he helped her get past that.   I focused on the abuse of a child hood and pretty much skipped her details post baptism in my mind 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Calm

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I believe this is all that is known in regards to the second woman:

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/statement-former-mission-president-alleged-abuse-joseph-l-bishop-march-2018

In two hours I get physical therapy, I am therefore making a public declaration that until something new is released, I am going to very, very, very strongly attempt to only read this thread and not post stuff either here or elsewhere.

I have been getting some minor, but annoying numbness down my left side that is related to back issues and typing in bed aggravates it.  So please flog me if you see me post long stuff at least in the next week while I am taking advantage of my new bed nutrturing my back instead of agonizing it (pain from sore joints miraculously disappeared in three nights on the new bed, so already much better).

I may provide links without the quotes to help find stuff, but must, must be good in order to get back into decent exercising.

Take care of yourself.  You can straighten us all out when you are feeling better.  I do want to thank you for the extreme amount of effort you have put into this case,  You have really done a superb job. of keeping it factual at least when there are facts to assert.  You deserve a break.  I am sure all of us hope your pain subsides.  

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Thanks,  funny how we can read things, I read that as raped by her father and later had a baby out of wedlock by someone else. 

 Oh nice, dictation works if I speak very slowly. 

Ah.  You may be correct.  Her statement is ambiguous.

On balance, though, probably not.  The "baby out of wedlock" would likely have precluded missionary service if it was due to a voluntary violation of the Law of Chastity, rather than a sexual assault (which is not a violation of the Law of Chastity for the victim).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 2, 2018 by smac97

[Calm]

 It would make sense if to protect the feelings of her daughter and family, she left out the rape when publicly speaking. 

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Thanks,  funny how we can read things, I read that as raped by her father and later had a baby out of wedlock by someone else. 

That's how I read it too.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, california boy said:

Take care of yourself.  You can straighten us all out when you are feeling better.  I do want to thank you for the extreme amount of effort you have put into this case,  You have really done a superb job. of keeping it factual at least when there are facts to assert.  You deserve a break.  I am sure all of us hope your pain subsides.  

 It was great distraction, love all the good thoughts, thank you. 

[Marginal Gains]

On 4/28/2018 at 12:12 AM, JulieM said:

Did he make sure the proper church authorities were aware of this sexual abuser so he wouldn’t be put into callings or situations where he was with youth or children?

 

On 4/28/2018 at 12:15 AM, smac97 said:

Given Exiled's disgusting treatment of this matter, I'm reluctant to provide further details.  

The bishop is both an attorney and a father to daughters.  Suffice it to say that he has done everything he can do.

Thanks,

-Smac

Is that a yes or a no?

[Bernard Gui]

17 hours ago, smac97 said:

In your view, which Church leaders should be "punished?"  And for what?

There must be some law against failing to adequately use the gift of discernment. A sharp lawyer could make the case. 🤔

Edited May 3, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Thanks,  funny how we can read things, I read that as raped by her father and later had a baby out of wedlock by someone else. 

 Oh nice, dictation works if I speak very slowly. 

 Not that I think rape requires forgiveness, but she seemed as a missionary to have doubts about her worthiness and at first  he helped her get past that.   I focused on the abuse of a child hood and pretty much skipped her details post baptism in my mind 

That was confusing to me too. When I listened all the way through the audio, she said that father was a pedophile. But hopefully he left her alone.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Tacenda

[esodije]

I hadn’t read the transcript before I said Denson had originally stated that her pregnancy resulted from rape.  From listening to the recording,  that was the distinct impression I came away with; however, the transcript is ambiguous at best.  Nonetheless, I’m still wondering why the MTC president would be making a determination of her worthiness to go to the temple, since that’s worked out, in advance and as a matter of course, by the missionary’s bishop and stake president at home.  All, or at least virtually all, missionaries receive the temple endowment before arriving at the MTC.  Moreover, most MTC missionaries with personal problems would be counseled by a branch president; only in fairly extraordinary circumstances would such problems be escalated to the MTC president, and I can’t even conceive of a situation in which the branch president would be kept entirely out of the loop.  Thus there are a number of people whose testimony I’d want to hear: Denson’s MTC companion, the other missionaries in her MTC district, and her MTC branch president.

[rockpond]

57 minutes ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

I hadn’t read the transcript before I said Denson had originally stated that her pregnancy resulted from rape.  From listening to the recording,  that was the distinct impression I came away with; however, the transcript is ambiguous at best.  Nonetheless, I’m still wondering why the MTC president would be making a determination of her worthiness to go to the temple, since that’s worked out, in advance and as a matter of course, by the missionary’s bishop and stake president at home.  All, or at least virtually all, missionaries receive the temple endowment before arriving at the MTC.  Moreover, most MTC missionaries with personal problems would be counseled by a branch president; only in fairly extraordinary circumstances would such problems be escalated to the MTC president, and I can’t even conceive of a situation in which the branch president would be kept entirely out of the loop.  Thus there are a number of people whose testimony I’d want to hear: Denson’s MTC companion, the other missionaries in her MTC district, and her MTC branch president.

Where do you get the idea that Bishop, as MTC President, was assessing Denson’s temple worthiness?  Did I miss that in the recording?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

I hadn’t read the transcript before I said Denson had originally stated that her pregnancy resulted from rape.  From listening to the recording,  that was the distinct impression I came away with; however, the transcript is ambiguous at best.  Nonetheless, I’m still wondering why the MTC president would be making a determination of her worthiness to go to the temple, since that’s worked out, in advance and as a matter of course, by the missionary’s bishop and stake president at home.  All, or at least virtually all, missionaries receive the temple endowment before arriving at the MTC.  Moreover, most MTC missionaries with personal problems would be counseled by a branch president; only in fairly extraordinary circumstances would such problems be escalated to the MTC president, and I can’t even conceive of a situation in which the branch president would be kept entirely out of the loop.  Thus there are a number of people whose testimony I’d want to hear: Denson’s MTC companion, the other missionaries in her MTC district, and her MTC branch president.

I got the impression from the 12/6 draft that he had given her permission to write a letter, in other words a special to visit to the temple.  Not just the usual not session or whatever missionaries do there.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Where do you get the idea that Bishop, as MTC President, was assessing Denson’s temple worthiness?  Did I miss that in the recording?

 If you do a search on Temple in the transcript, if I recall correctly it says he gave her permission to go to the temple. It does sound there he was clearing her for a temple recommend,  but the draft makes it sound like it was for a special event for her personally. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Calm