What if Joseph didn't practice plural marriage?

[changed]

On 4/18/2018 at 9:57 AM, rongo said:

If I were using standard operating procedure here, I would say, "CFR!" But, this is your opinion.

I would actually not have a problem, either way, if Jesus' conception involved sex or not. Certainly, if we can conceive children today without sex using medical instruments, God was able to achieve this through the means of the Holy Ghost. 

Assuming that sex was not involved, do you agree that Jesus received 23 chromosomes from Mary, and 23 from the Father? Or, is that also beyond the pale?

As an aside, I found it funny that Ron Wyatt (from the other thread) allegedly found blood under the crucifixion site that only had 24 chromosomes. Psychologically, this was probably necessary to claim so that a) there weren't 23 chromosomes from God, and b) it wasn't just Mary's 23. Viola! Add a mystery chromosome, and it has to be Jesus! 

None of the known things that have 24 chromosomes are even animals:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organisms_by_chromosome_count

And I know that you haven't said anything about chromosomes. But, now that I brought it up, do you believe that Jesus had 46 chromosomes: 23 from his mother, and 23 from his father (not Joseph the carpenter)?

Yes, I believe Heavenly Father was the father of Jesus, perhaps he would not have been able to fulfill the atonement - would not have been able to die, without having also come from his mortal mother?  

In any event, I do find it interesting that he was G-d's only child - "only" one, and that he had to be born of a handmiad.  ... Eve was not able to have children in her perfect form either... Sarah started out barren - what do you think the symbolism behind all the barren women in the scriptures is?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/barren?lang=eng&letter=B

or all the scriptures using "adoption" 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/adoption?lang=eng&letter=A

polygamy is about raising up seed after all, it is not about sex.

 

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

 

How are families created?

An interesting little tid-bit from the Savior:

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

We do not become children of Heavenly parents through sex, we become children through making and keeping covenants, through being disciples:

 7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called
the a children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters;

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

3 Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son;

etc. etc.

the spirit of adoption where we cry abba - we do not start as as G-d's children, we become children through baptism - baptism is our birth, covenants are what create children..  (sex seems like the fallen way of having children, baptism/covenants appears to be G-d's way of having children) .. the thing with covenants though, you have to be accountable - with experience, at least 8 years old... so earthly parents are needed to raise children to the age of accountability - so they can become old enough to make the choice of who they want for their parents.  Two sets of parents are needed - earthly parents to bring spirits to accountability, and heavenly parents that can then later be chosen through covenant and free will once the spirit is able to make an informed decision.  I think this is what polygamy is about, it is about raising up seed - about sharing your children, and entering into a loving relationship with both earthly and heavenly parents.  ... for heavenly parents to love earthly parents enough to entrust their children to them, to work together in one large family to raise up children - to be close to both heavenly parents and your spouse (church is also known as a bridegroom etc.) Again, it is not about sex, it is about raising up seed.  

Edited April 18, 2018 by changed

[longview]

24 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

The perpetual virginity of Mary is not a part of LDS theology.

I don't think "changed" was saying that Mary's virginity was perpetual.  Foster father Joseph was righteous and sensitive to the Will of God to care for Mary but NOT consummate the official marriage already arranged before Gabriel's announcement.  It may have been after Mary had weaned Jesus that they resumed the "normal" relationship.  Of course being parents to the "Son of God" was far from normal.  The additional children Mary had after Jesus were also children of Joseph.  Therefore "half-siblings" to Jesus.

[katherine the great]

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

Does anyone know if it was common for half-siblings to be referred to in that culture/in Greek/in Aramaic as "brothers and sisters?" Or, would there have been a distinction made. 

I'm not sure about that specific culture, but many ancient cultures even refer to a particular class of first cousins as brothers and sisters. Kinship reckoning is very culture specific.

[longview]

10 hours ago, JulieM said:

Why would Joseph live the principle of plural marriage differently than those other men who he’d called to live it during his lifetime?  (There were children born to plural wives of some while Joseph was still alive).

Or why would Joseph live it differently than Brigham Young and the other early Mormon prophets who practiced polygamy?

Brigham Young's first (primary) wife was faithful and was willing to make the sacrifice to enter into this principle.  No doubt she gave her consent to honor the name of God.  I am convinced that other primary wives had to be informed and make their choices for giving consent.

[MiserereNobis]

46 minutes ago, longview said:

There are more important concepts in a covenantal marriage than mere gratification between a couple.  Sex is an incentive for "scaredy cat" guys to make the leap to commitment

Sex is not "mere gratification" or just an "incentive." Sex helps create and further intimacy. That is one of its purposes. Your denigration of sex is very Puritanical and the Puritans were pretty messed up when it came to sex.

[longview]

24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You have no way of knowing that.  It is pure assumption.  

Unquestionably Jesus is referred to being the "Only Begotten Son of the Father in the Flesh."  Adam did not have that distinction.

[changed]

On 4/18/2018 at 10:20 AM, longview said:

Brigham Young's first (primary) wife was faithful and was willing to make the sacrifice to enter into this principle.  No doubt she gave her consent to honor the name of God.  I am convinced that other primary wives had to be informed and make their choices for giving consent.

It was also Heavenly Father who placed Mary into Joseph's care - fear not to take unto thee thy wife.. 

“Fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost..."

In the end, after children are raised, everyone will have a monogamous relationship I think.  

[MiserereNobis]

47 minutes ago, rongo said:

How can anyone believe that, anyway, as the New Testament talks of Jesus' brothers and sisters? 

It's a good thing that Catholicism has the magisterium guided by the Holy Spirit to give us correct interpretation and understanding of the Bible.

If I were LDS, I'd probably say: It's a good thing there are modern day prophets to give us revelation so we can correctly interpret and understand the Bible.

(see, Catholics and Mormons are quite similar when it comes to their leaders)

[longview]

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Sex is not "mere gratification" or just an "incentive." Sex helps create and further intimacy. That is one of its purposes. Your denigration of sex is very Puritanical and the Puritans were pretty messed up when it came to sex.

I think you are overreacting to my comment.  Had no intention of being denigrating or puritanical.  I love sex and am very grateful for my wife and family.  We will celebrate our 40th anniversary this summer.

[JulieM]

11 minutes ago, longview said:

Brigham Young's first (primary) wife was faithful and was willing to make the sacrifice to enter into this principle.  No doubt she gave her consent to honor the name of God.  I am convinced that other primary wives had to be informed and make their choices for giving consent.

Emma gave her consent for some of Joseph’s plural marriages.  So you believe at least those were consummated (if I’m understanding you correctly)?

[longview]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

Emma gave her consent for some of Joseph’s plural marriages.  So you believe at least those were consummated (if I’m understanding you correctly)?

Interesting.  I was not aware of Emma giving consent for any marriage.  To go along with my original conjecture (questions), none of Joseph's earthly marriages were consummated except with Emma.  However, it would not be difficult for me to believe that Emma gave consent for earthly marriages that were not "allowed by her" to be consummated in mortality and also give consent for marriages that take effect in the next world.

[katherine the great]

17 minutes ago, longview said:

Brigham Young's first (primary) wife was faithful and was willing to make the sacrifice to enter into this principle.  No doubt she gave her consent to honor the name of God.  I am convinced that other primary wives had to be informed and make their choices for giving consent.

Maybe. Speaking as a woman, if I had been married to Brigham Young, I'm not sure it would be much of a sacrifice to send him off to another wife. I don't view him as someone quite as "lovable" as Joseph Smith. I see Emma's dilemma as much more difficult. (just my opinion)

[RevTestament]

46 minutes ago, rongo said:

As an aside, I found it funny that Ron Wyatt (from the other thread) allegedly found blood under the crucifixion site that only had 24 chromosomes. Psychologically, this was probably necessary to claim so that a) there weren't 23 chromosomes from God, and b) it wasn't just Mary's 23. Viola! Add a mystery chromosome, and it has to be Jesus! 

None of the known things that have 24 chromosomes are even animals:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organisms_by_chromosome_count

These ciliated protozoa make us look like evolutionary pipsqueaks LOL:

Ciliated protozoa (Oxytricha trifallax)	15,600 MAC chromosomes

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

How can anyone believe that, anyway, as the New Testament talks of Jesus' brothers and sisters? 

Some Catholics seem to interpret brothers as being spiritual brothers. However, the problem with that is that the gospels seem to distinguish Yeshua's brothers from His disciples:

John 2:12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples.

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

Well, in all fairness, they could have been his half brothers and sisters from Joseph's first wife. I don't think it says anywhere that they were Mary's children. Personally I believe that they were Mary and Joseph's children, but it does seem odd that Jesus turned over the care of Mary to John if she had sons who could have (and should have) taken care of her.

This seems to be the early Church view: 

The earliest explanation of the “brothers” of the Lord is found in a document known as the Protoevangelium of James, which was written around A.D. 150. It speaks of Mary as a consecrated virgin since her youth, and of St. Joseph as an elderly widower with children who was chosen to be Mary’s spouse for the purposes of guarding and protecting her while respecting her vow of virginity. Though this document is not on the level of Sacred Scripture, it was written very early, and it may contain accurate historical traditions. 

The fact that Joseph is not mentioned during Yeshua's ministry does lend to the idea that Joseph was older than Mary, and had passed away.

Another view is that there were multiple Marys and that these "brothers" were Yeshua's cousins. “There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him; among who were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.” (Matt. 27:56; see also Mark 15:40).

However, other verses make this difficult such as 

Mathew 13:55 Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?

The scriptures never mention any other mother for Yeshua's brothers and sisters with the above possible exception of another Mary, and they don't seem to be his apostles, since Joseph/Yosef was not a known apostle, and Simon the Apostle is distinguished in the gospels. 

30 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It's a good thing that Catholicism has the magisterium guided by the Holy Spirit to give us correct interpretation and understanding of the Bible.

If I were LDS, I'd probably say: It's a good thing there are modern day prophets to give us revelation so we can correctly interpret and understand the Bible.

(see, Catholics and Mormons are quite similar when it comes to their leaders)

I do not know if there is an official Catholic interpretation or not. It seems to me Catholics believe several different possibilities. I suppose one I left out is that Joseph had polygamous marriages... That probably doesn't get bantered around much in Catholic circles...  

My personal view is that James was Yeshua's biological brother through Mary and an apostle, however, I have to acknowledge that the texts do not rule out other possibilities. I personally do not believe them since Matthew says that Joseph did not "know her" until Yeshua was born.

Matt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her ^afirstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

This to me is the strongest indication that Joseph consummated His marriage with Mary after Yeshua was born, and therefore would conceivably have other children by her. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, changed said:

virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, Isa. 7:14 (Matt. 1:23; 2 Ne. 17:14).

 No part of that precludes consummation.  She was a virgin, she consummated her marriage, she conceived Christ.

[changed]

On 4/18/2018 at 11:56 AM, JLHPROF said:

 No part of that precludes consummation.  She was a virgin, she consummated her marriage, she conceived Christ.

Semantics?  This is how most define consummate, and virginity - 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consummation In many traditions and statutes of civil or religious law, the consummation of a marriage, often called simply consummation, is the first (or first officially credited) act of sexual intercourse between two people,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginity  Virginity is the state of a person who has never engaged in sexual intercourse

 “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14).

See also see Luke 1:26–37, Jesus was not conceived through sex.

 

I know some guys have fantasies about what Heaven will entail, and what G-d gets to do... us women have our ideas about what heaven will be too...  sorry.  

Edited April 18, 2018 by changed

[JulieM]

2 hours ago, longview said:

Interesting.  I was not aware of Emma giving consent for any marriage.  To go along with my original conjecture (questions), none of Joseph's earthly marriages were consummated except with Emma.  However, it would not be difficult for me to believe that Emma gave consent for earthly marriages that were not "allowed by her" to be consummated in mortality and also give consent for marriages that take effect in the next world.

So all of the statements from Joseph’s wives regarding their consummation of their marriage were lying?  They were Joseph’s wives.

Why are you Ok with other men and prophets consummating their plural marriages but think Joseph didn’t?

Edited April 18, 2018 by JulieM

[Calm]

2 hours ago, longview said:

Brigham Young's first (primary) wife was faithful and was willing to make the sacrifice to enter into this principle.  No doubt she gave her consent to honor the name of God.  I am convinced that other primary wives had to be informed and make their choices for giving consent.

BY's first wife was dead before he entered into plural marriage.  Perhaps you mean "second".

[Calm]

2 hours ago, longview said:

Interesting.  I was not aware of Emma giving consent for any marriage. 

If you were unaware of Emma giving consent for the Partridge and Lawrence sisters, it would seem you haven't studied the history of plural marriage in Nauvoo in detail as that is a well known claim:

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/emily-dow-partridge/

It seems appropriate to be familiar with the most credible claims both pro and con before drawing conclusions.  I am not sure how one could know whether claims of consummation were credible if they didn't read the comments by those involved most.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Calm

[longview]

23 minutes ago, JulieM said:

So all of the statements from Joseph’s wives regarding their consummation of their marriage were lying?  They were Joseph’s wives.

Why are you Ok with other men and prophets consummating their plural marriages but think Joseph didn’t?

I probably may not have studied the histories as extensively as you might have.  My general impression is that there are a great deal of uncertainties in the record.  And having heard the news in previous years that DNA testing have NOT yet revealed any offsprings from Joseph not related to Emma.

It is not a question of being "OK" with anything.  I can only observe that the Church did not go out of its way to publicize the principle while in Nauvoo.  My point still holds concerning Emma's consent to whichever possible arrangements.  The primary wives were not in the same position as Emma's and could make their own choices in accordance with their conscience.  I do occasionally wonder about Emma's standing in the Spirit World (the state of preparation before the Resurrection).

[longview]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

BY's first wife was dead before he entered into plural marriage.  Perhaps you mean "second".

Interesting.  Brings up another question:  the current "head" wife could still excercise her right to give consent.  May not need to consult Spirit World for "Yea or Nay" from the deceased first wife.

Edited April 18, 2018 by longview

[hope_for_things]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

If you were unaware of Emma giving consent for the Partridge and Lawrence sisters, it would seem you haven't studied the history of plural marriage in Nauvoo in detail as that is a well known claim:

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/emily-dow-partridge/

It seems appropriate to be familiar with the most credible claims both pro and con before drawing conclusions.  I am not sure how one could know whether claims of consummation were credible if they didn't read the comments by those involved most.

Also, probably important to note that Joseph married the Partridge sisters prior to getting Emma's consent, and then a couple months later had a new marriage ceremony with the Partridge sisters to create a certain impression in Emma's mind.  Some people might think those ceremonies were sham ceremonies since Joseph was already married to these women.  I'm not comfortable calling this scenario asking Emma for consent.  

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, changed said:

Semantics?  This is how most define consummate, and virginity - 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consummation In many traditions and statutes of civil or religious law, the consummation of a marriage, often called simply consummation, is the first (or first officially credited) act of sexual intercourse between two people,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginity  Virginity is the state of a person who has never engaged in sexual intercourse

 “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14).

See also see Luke 1:26–37, Jesus was not conceived through sex.

 

I know some guys have fantasies about what Heaven will entail, and what G-d gets to do... us women have our ideas about what heaven will be too...  sorry.  

Not at all.  She was a virgin up till she conceived Christ.

Where is the scripture stating she remained such after conception?  It's true the veil was restored and she stated she had never known a man, but she apparently had no recorded memory of what happened when she was "taken away in the spirit".

She was a virgin.  Then she wasn't.  Like most people.

[MiserereNobis]

Does Mormonism have an official position on the virgin birth? It seems like some people here are arguing that Mary was not a virgin when she gave birth.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Does Mormonism have an official position on the virgin birth? It seems like some people here are arguing that Mary was not a virgin when she gave birth.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, though not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, gives a reliable rendition of Mormon belief on this topic.