ttribe Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 46 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said: calling rape after he died is very convienant, with at least some of them they were married to top leaders who were practicing sounds like motive to me Okay. Enjoy your fantasy world.
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 54 minutes ago, Alan said: This issue has been something I have considered for a long time. I strongly believe I was led to my position on this by the Spirit. Joseph was not a polygamist and was married only to Emma. Marriage and sealing were clearly considered to be different things in Nauvoo. The D&C even had a section on marriage regarding the fact that it should be to one woman, should be public etc. Temple sealings however, do not meet this requirement and were therefore not marriages according to the law of the church. This isn't rocket science! When Joseph and Hyrum were gone BY did a good job holding the church together and moving the saints outside of the US and into isolation. The downside to this was that civil and eccleciastical government were essentially the same thing. Many things became conflated, including marriage and sealings. Given the "newspeak" it isn't difficult to understand how a memory of a Nauvoo sealing was viewed in Utah retrospect as a marriage. I know people believe JS practiced the law of adaption, even the LDS church after JS death, practiced that for a while. For a while I believe in law of adaption, but I don't believe in that anymore. In retrospect I think I believed in law of adaption because I didn't believe in polygamy anymore and at the time it seemed the best way to make sense of various accounts. But now I just don't believe those account, and I honestly don't see law of adaption in the scriptures either.
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 55 minutes ago, ttribe said: Okay. Enjoy your fantasy world. I admitted in another reply that rape was the wrong word and explained what was going on in my mind at the time, but the rest of the statement is not fantasy, it's logical.
ttribe Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 9 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said: I admitted in another reply that rape was the wrong word and explained what was going on in my mind at the time, but the rest of the statement is not fantasy, it's logical. You are ignoring evidence in favor of a fantasy world where Joseph Smith didn't have more than one wife. 1
ALarson Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alan said: Given the "newspeak" it isn't difficult to understand how a memory of a Nauvoo sealing was viewed in Utah retrospect as a marriage. So what are your views on the Nauvoo sealings that resulted in children being born as a result of those sealings? There were at least 2 births that took place with a plural wife in Nauvoo while Joseph was still living. Edited April 27, 2018 by ALarson
Alan Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 I would be interested in the results of a DNA examination. As you probably know, this was done for the posterity of the children born to Joseph's "wives", many of whom swore their children were Joseph's, only to be conclusively disproved. So it would be interesting to learn the status of those children born to the alleged plural wives of BY etc in Nauvoo. 1
ALarson Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Alan said: I would be interested in the results of a DNA examination. As you probably know, this was done for the posterity of the children born to Joseph's "wives", many of whom swore their children were Joseph's, only to be conclusively disproved. So it would be interesting to learn the status of those children born to the alleged plural wives of BY etc in Nauvoo. They were children born to William Clayton and Heber C. Kimball (with their plural wives as the mothers of the children). Edited April 27, 2018 by ALarson
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 43 minutes ago, ttribe said: You are ignoring evidence in favor of a fantasy world where Joseph Smith didn't have more than one wife. Considering we both believe differently is quite easy for the other side to say that. Which is what you are doing. But I guess for some, which I'm sure you think of me, only time and/or God will tell. There is "evidence" for both sides, the question is which do you believe. I grew up believing in polygamy as I'm sure you did, and when I was first divorced I didn't want to have it cancelled because despite what she was doing I did still love her, but I also wanted another sealed wife. We have both researched and we are both persuaded by different things. Down playing the other will not win people over.
ttribe Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, Alan said: I would be interested in the results of a DNA examination. As you probably know, this was done for the posterity of the children born to Joseph's "wives", many of whom swore their children were Joseph's, only to be conclusively disproved. So it would be interesting to learn the status of those children born to the alleged plural wives of BY etc in Nauvoo. Clearly, they had reason to believe the children were Joseph's.
Calm Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 4 hours ago, SJR3t2 said: One would think with all the false accusations of rape going around today to support an agenda today, one would wonder if it was possible back then also. False accusations are a small percentage of accusations, though they do unfortunately happen. Most recent studies I have read place occurrence between 2-8%, some go higher to 10% like this one below, others go lower to 4 or 6%: https://atixa.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Lisak-False-Allegations-16-VAW-1318-2010.pdf Awhile back I posted a good article that dealt with false accusations. The majority of them followed two patterns, an initial accusation due to the pressure of a parent or significant other that was then never followed up on (in those cases, the accused often never even knew they were accused) and accusations from those who had a history of making false accusations. I couldn't find it quickly, but will dig it up if you want.
JLHPROF Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 20 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said: Considering we both believe differently is quite easy for the other side to say that. Which is what you are doing. But I guess for some, which I'm sure you think of me, only time and/or God will tell. There is "evidence" for both sides, the question is which do you believe. I grew up believing in polygamy as I'm sure you did, and when I was first divorced I didn't want to have it cancelled because despite what she was doing I did still love her, but I also wanted another sealed wife. We have both researched and we are both persuaded by different things. Down playing the other will not win people over. People have the right to believe differently. I don't think there is "evidence" for both sides at all. I have never seen a speck of viable evidence that indicates in any way that Joseph's sealings to these numerous women weren't marriages.
ttribe Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 29 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said: Considering we both believe differently is quite easy for the other side to say that. Which is what you are doing. But I guess for some, which I'm sure you think of me, only time and/or God will tell. There is "evidence" for both sides, the question is which do you believe. I grew up believing in polygamy as I'm sure you did, and when I was first divorced I didn't want to have it cancelled because despite what she was doing I did still love her, but I also wanted another sealed wife. We have both researched and we are both persuaded by different things. Down playing the other will not win people over. Let me ask you this - Are you an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? If so, how do you reconcile your belief with what is plainly stated on the Church's own website?
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 39 minutes ago, ttribe said: Let me ask you this - Are you an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? If so, how do you reconcile your belief with what is plainly stated on the Church's own website? I'll answer your question, but first, it seems to be a very common practice to ask this question to put an opposing view down rather than the merits of the case. I am an active ex-member when I am around an English ward, which currently I am not. https://seekingyhwh.com/2015/01/18/lds-resignation-letter/
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 45 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: People have the right to believe differently. I don't think there is "evidence" for both sides at all. I have never seen a speck of viable evidence that indicates in any way that Joseph's sealings to these numerous women weren't marriages. In my honest opinion this is a very good resource, there are others, but this is the best one. Even if you don't agree it's good to know the other side some. https://theexonerationofemmajosephandhyrum.com/
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 58 minutes ago, Calm said: False accusations are a small percentage of accusations, though they do unfortunately happen. Most recent studies I have read place occurrence between 2-8%, some go higher to 10% like this one below, others go lower to 4 or 6%: https://atixa.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Lisak-False-Allegations-16-VAW-1318-2010.pdf Awhile back I posted a good article that dealt with false accusations. The majority of them followed two patterns, an initial accusation due to the pressure of a parent or significant other that was then never followed up on (in those cases, the accused often never even knew they were accused) and accusations from those who had a history of making false accusations. I couldn't find it quickly, but will dig it up if you want. That maybe true for a general rule, but I'm sure there are case by case it swings to either end of the extreme.
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 1 hour ago, ttribe said: Clearly, they had reason to believe the children were Joseph's. And yet no DNA to prove that they were.
ttribe Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 6 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said: And yet no DNA to prove that they were. Not to put too fine a point on it, but there is plenty of sex that doesn't result in pregnancy.
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 Just now, ttribe said: Not to put too fine a point on it, but there is plenty of sex that doesn't result in pregnancy. JS had many children with Emma, I don't know how many off the top of my head. And at a good number of the other supposed women had children with their other husbands. Only problems with JS and supposed other wives. Sounds shaking to me, but to each their own.
JulieM Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said: JS had many children with Emma, I don't know how many off the top of my head. And at a good number of the other supposed women had children with their other husbands. Only problems with JS and supposed other wives. Sounds shaking to me, but to each their own. If that was the only indicator needed (no children) that Joseph didn’t have other wives, then you’d be right. But there’s way too much other solid evidence and testimonies that he did live polygamy that you just seem to want to ignore. Why would Joseph restore the principle, call other men to live it, call it a commandment, and then refuse to live it himself?
Marginal Gains Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said: JS had many children with Emma, I don't know how many off the top of my head. And at a good number of the other supposed women had children with their other husbands. Only problems with JS and supposed other wives. Sounds shaking to me, but to each their own. I’m pretty sure God can hide DNA trails if he wants to... Edited April 27, 2018 by Marginal Gains
ttribe Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 21 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said: JS had many children with Emma, I don't know how many off the top of my head. And at a good number of the other supposed women had children with their other husbands. Only problems with JS and supposed other wives. Sounds shaking to me, but to each their own. I'm curious - what difference does it make to you whether Joseph Smith actually had more than one wife?
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 16 minutes ago, JulieM said: If that was the only indicator needed (no children) that Joseph didn’t have other wives, then you’d be right. But there’s way too much other solid evidence and testimonies that he did live polygamy that you just seem to want to ignore. Why would Joseph restore the principle, call other men to live it, call it a commandment, and then refuse to live it himself? I don't believe he called others to live it ect, and the evidance I've already covered that multiple times.
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 10 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: I’m pretty sure God can hide DNA trails if he wants to... Why would he want to? Mircles and proofs are a starting point to conversion.
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, ttribe said: I'm curious - what difference does it make to you whether Joseph Smith actually had more than one wife? There are multiple reasons, first off truth, I want the truth not all these half truths and faith promoting myths that we are told. Truth is what build faith in God not lies ect. On top of that if a house is built upon a sandy foundation it will be washed away when the rains and floods come, and they will come. What difference does it mean to you?
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