What if Joseph didn't practice plural marriage?

[Alan]

12 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes, I know what the word contemporary means.  Have you read the account written by Maria Jane Woodward?  She worked in the mansion for Emma and Joseph.  

CFR

 

I can't find anything which indicates that Maria Jane Woodward's account is contemporary... ie. recorded at the time rather than a later recollection.

Can you?

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, Alan said:

I can't find anything which indicates that Maria Jane Woodward's account is contemporary... ie. recorded at the time rather than a later recollection.

Can you?

It's in her words and her writing.  She lived in the mansion with Joseph and Emma and loved them both.  Do you believe she was lying about what she witnessed first hand?

You get awfully picky about all of the very many different first hand accounts told from those who lived and knew Joseph.  You call everyone a liar, but can't see that maybe Joseph had a purpose for hiding polygamy from some.  

Now, please respond to the CFR.

Who do you believe spent what would have been a considerable amount of time rewriting Clayton's diaries?  How about all the other diaries and writings of others who lived in Nauvoo at that time?  Did someone rewrite them as well?

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by ALarson

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

I am right. I don't know why it happened; I can speculate as well as the next guy, but I don't know.

Regarding the activities of Brigham & Co, this thread is about Joseph not Brigham. But seeing as you ask, I believe that taking the sealing beyond it's dynastical purpose was unfortunate. Certainly the church's progress has suffered significantly as a result. The fact that the Lord had to intervene to stop it, despite the determination of the leadership to continue no matter what, suggests to me they were out of line.

The church's essay is incorrect.

There are no contemporary accounts of a rift between Joseph and Emma. Indeed Emma (the Elect Lady) repeatedly stated that there wasn't, and that Joseph never had marital relations with any other woman.

Joseph did not have an affair with Fanny Alger.

[Alan]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

It's in her words and her writing.  She lived in the mansion with Joseph and Emma and loved them both.  Do you believe she was lying about what she witnessed first hand?

You get awfully picky about all of the very many different first hand accounts told from those who lived and knew Joseph.  You call everyone a liar, but can't see that maybe Joseph had a purpose for hiding polygamy from some.  

Now, please respond to the CFR.

Who do you believe spent what would have been a considerable amount of time rewriting Clayton's diaries?  How about all the other diaries and writings of others who lived in Nauvoo at that time?  Did someone rewrite them as well?

 

So you can't point out any contemporary evidence from Sister Woodward. Enough said.

I have a confession.... I knew you couldn't. Not because you are incapable (I'm quite sure you are very capable), but because it doesn't exist.

I'll try to find the link to the William Clayton issue. I came across it quite recently. If I remember rightly, for some reason(!) he apparently left off writing in his normal diary and recorded all the Joseph Smith polygamy stuff in another completely different diary, and then picked up writing in his original diary again. Something like that anyway. Smells of revisionism to me.

Like I said, I'll try to find the link.

 

[Alan]

3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I didn't know Jeremy Clarkson was an expert on Mormon polygamy as well as cars.

You learn something every day!

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, Alan said:

So you can't point out any contemporary evidence from Sister Woodward. Enough said.

We have her own writing in her own words.  Was she lying?

And, was Vilate Kimball also lying in the letters she wrote to her husband, Heber discussing the principle of plural marriage that he and other were currently living?  Stating that members needed for Joseph to return to get his approval before they entered into living plural marriage?  Those were written between them and dated June 27 and June 29, 1843.  Contemporary enough for you?

Or do believe those letters were rewritten and contained lies too?

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by ALarson

[ALarson]

19 minutes ago, Alan said:

I'll try to find the link to the William Clayton issue. I came across it quite recently. If I remember rightly, for some reason(!) he apparently left off writing in his normal diary and recorded all the Joseph Smith polygamy stuff in another completely different diary, and then picked up writing in his original diary again. Something like that anyway. Smells of revisionism to me.

Like I said, I'll try to find the link.

 

I'll be waiting.  And no, Clayton did not "apparently left off writing in his normal  diary" and record "all the Joseph Smith polygamy stuff in another completely different diary"....where on earth did you get that theory?  It's all intermingled throughout his  Nauvoo diary with day by day entries.  It would have been a huge undertaking to alter it or rewrite it!

Do you even own a copy of William Clayton's Nauvoo diary?  Have you even read it?  If not, you should.  You'd see that what you're claiming above is absolutely not true.

But I'm interested to read what you have in response to my CFR.

Edited May 3, 2018 by ALarson

[ttribe]

25 minutes ago, Alan said:

I didn't know Jeremy Clarkson was an expert on Mormon polygamy as well as cars.

You learn something every day!

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

I am right.

So, Todd Compton researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, he's wrong and you're right.

Richard Bushman researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, he's wrong and you're right.

Brian C. Hales researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, he's wrong and you're right.

Fawn Brodie researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, she's wrong and you're right.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint owns the most extensive collection of original documents on this subject.  But the Church is wrong, and you're right.

 

I'm beginning to detect a pattern...

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, ttribe said:

So, Todd Compton researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, he's wrong and you're right.

Richard Bushman researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, he's wrong and you're right.

Brian C. Hales researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, he's wrong and you're right.

Fawn Brodie researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, she's wrong and you're right.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint owns the most extensive collection of original documents on this subject.  But the Church is wrong, and you're right.

 

I'm beginning to detect a pattern...

And there are definitely contemporary writings that prove him wrong as well.  But then he claims they were altered or rewritten or all contain lies.

There would have to be so many active, faithful members of the church telling lies about Joseph living the principle in order for what Alan claims to be true.   Also, so many of the later Prophets and church leaders (from Brigham Young on who knew Joseph lived polygamy) would be telling lies.  It's a ridiculous theory and would have been impossible to pull off with as many people as there were involved and who were first hand witnesses.

And if Alan believes the stuff the Price's wrote, those books were horribly written and sourced.

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by ALarson

[Alan]

13 minutes ago, ttribe said:

So, Todd Compton researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, he's wrong and you're right.

Richard Bushman researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, he's wrong and you're right.

Brian C. Hales researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, he's wrong and you're right.

Fawn Brodie researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, she's wrong and you're right.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint owns the most extensive collection of original documents on this subject.  But the Church is wrong, and you're right.

 

 

Yep.

[Marginal Gains]

18 minutes ago, ttribe said:

So, Todd Compton researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, he's wrong and you're right.

Richard Bushman researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, he's wrong and you're right.

Brian C. Hales researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, he's wrong and you're right.

Fawn Brodie researched this topic extensively and wrote a book.  But, she's wrong and you're right.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint owns the most extensive collection of original documents on this subject.  But the Church is wrong, and you're right.

 

I'm beginning to detect a pattern...

 

5 minutes ago, Alan said:

Yep.

Well, that’s convinced me...

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, Alan said:

Yep.

And the Price's book got it right?  Hilarious!!!

If you use their reasoning, Hyrum didn't live polygamy because Emma gave her son the middle name of "Hyrum" 

And I'm still waiting on the CFR....

What are your feelings regarding the letters between Heber and Vilate from 1843?  

Edited May 3, 2018 by ALarson

[ttribe]

9 minutes ago, Alan said:

Yep.

[Alan]

I have no problem with you guys believing as you do. Clearly though, the feeling isn't mutual. 

I too used to believe as you do. Then I actually studied the sources, rather than someone's (Brodie, Compton etc) commentary on them. Very enlighening. I recommend it.

But hey, if you guys want to carry on believing as you do, go right ahead. I don't care. I'm not bothered about trying to convince you of my belief. I believe as I do because I am utterly convicted that Joseph was not a polygamist and have been for years following my epiphany on the issue.

 

[Alan]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And the Price's book got it right?  Hilarious!!!

If you use their reasoning, Hyrum didn't live polygamy because Emma gave her son the middle name of "Hyrum" 

And I'm still waiting on the CFR....

What are your feelings regarding the letters between Heber and Vilate from 1843?  

I haven't mentioned the Price's. Why are you so hung up on them?

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, Alan said:

I haven't mentioned the Price's. Why are you so hung up on them?

Because your theories mirror their's.  So, you don't care for their books?

And the CFR?

And your feelings about the Kimball letters?  Are those contemporary enough for you?  How do you discount them?

Edited May 3, 2018 by ALarson

[ALarson]

27 minutes ago, Alan said:

Then I actually studied the sources,

Did you read the Clayton diary as one of the sources you studied?  If not, I'd recommend doing that.

ETA:

Also, if you haven't read Andrew F. Ehat's thesis:  "Joseph Smith's Introduction of Temple Ordinances and the 1844 Mormon Succession Question" it is excellent and he was allowed into the church archives to see sources and documents others haven't had access to.  He quotes the Kimball letters and other contemporary Nauvoo sources and writings.  Reading this helped me really understand the chronology of what was taking place and why Joseph did feel he needed to hide his polygamy from some.  (There's a few errors in this thesis, but if you're interested in reading it, I'll point those out for you if you'd like). 

I'd sincerely recommend you reading it for more sourced details regarding this topic and it's faithfully written too in support of Joseph Smith.  Here's a link to it: 

https://onewhoiswatching.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/ehat-succession.pdf

Edited May 3, 2018 by ALarson

[Alan]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't need it. I am thoroughly satisfied that my views on this matter are correct and that Joseph was telling the truth when he said he wasn't a polygamist and had only one wife. 

As for the Price's work; some of it is ok, some less so. Unfortunately, like most traditional RLDS resources it slavishly adheres to the "Joseph = good, Brigham = bad" mantra. For that reason I discounted much of their work. Also, I'm not particularly interested in commentaries, whether it's Hales, Compton etc or Price. I prefer to plough my own furrow.

[ALarson]

29 minutes ago, Alan said:

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't need it. I am thoroughly satisfied that my views on this matter are correct and that Joseph was telling the truth when he said he wasn't a polygamist and had only one wife. 

So are you withdrawing your statement regarding the William Clayton's Diary?

Or are you still looking for your sources?  

Here's your statement that I've issued the CFR on:

Quote

Some will say that Clayton's diary is contemporary to the alleged events, but recent examination has thrown that into doubt. It appears historical revisionism, which was absolutely rife in the 19th century, may well have compromised Clayton's account.

Also, I have provided at least two contemporary sources.  So you really might also want to stop claiming that there are none. 

You've made no comment regarding the Kimball letters from 1843 (they were contemporary sources).  Are you familiar with them?

And the children we know were born in Nauvoo to plural wives?

You seem to ignore the actual evidence in favor of simply wanting (or needing?) to believe that Joseph never practiced polygamy.

Edited May 3, 2018 by ALarson

[Alan]

You have not provided 2 contemporary sources at all. You mentioned 2 sources that you claim are contemporary... big difference.

Like I said before, I don't care one hoot what you believe on this issue and am not going to waste my time trying to convince you I'm right. You are determined to hang on to your belief and nothing I can say will change that. Pearls before swine and all that.

I learned a long time ago that "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".

I couldn't give a fig what any of these so called experts claim, they're wrong. I believe Joseph was an honourable man. He wasn't a liar or a deceiver. He was sealed to a number of people, but that was not considered marriage at the time and certainly didn't include sexual relations. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that he was married to anyone other than Emma and if you took the time to investigate for yourself instead of reading the opinions of self appointed "experts" who sell their wares for a price, you would discover this. 

You clearly don't appreciate me pointing this out because it challenges your worldview. But mark my words, you will discover the truth eventually. When you do, remember that I told you so.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Alan
Spelling mistake

[Marginal Gains]

13 hours ago, Alan said:

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't need it. I am thoroughly satisfied that my views on this matter are correct and that Joseph was telling the truth when he said he wasn't a polygamist and had only one wife. 

As for the Price's work; some of it is ok, some less so. Unfortunately, like most traditional RLDS resources it slavishly adheres to the "Joseph = good, Brigham = bad" mantra. For that reason I discounted much of their work. Also, I'm not particularly interested in commentaries, whether it's Hales, Compton etc or Price. I prefer to plough my own furrow.

Given that Mormon polygamy is well documented and accepted as having happened, even to the extent of an official declaration to end it, what difference does it make to the overall picture for you whether Joseph did or didn’t join in? I guess I’m asking why it’s so important to you that Joseph wasn’t a polygamist, when clearly a lot of other Apostles and subsequent Prophets were?

[Alan]

5 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Given that Mormon polygamy is well documented and accepted as having happened, even to the extent of an official declaration to end it, what difference does it make to the overall picture for you whether Joseph did or didn’t join in? I guess I’m asking why it’s so important to you that Joseph wasn’t a polygamist, when clearly a lot of other Apostles and subsequent Prophets were?

Because those who claim Joseph practiced polygamy accuse him of being a bare-faced liar. There is no way passed this. He got up in front of around 3,000 Saints six weeks or so before he died and declared that he only had one wife, had only ever had one wife, and was not a polygamist, and could prove all who say otherwise liars. Those who want to pin polygamy on Joseph have to believe his statement was a lie.

I believe Joseph was a truthful man. I believe he told the truth about seeing God, the gold plates, priesthood restoration etc, and about his marital status.  

[JulieM]

36 minutes ago, Alan said:

Because those who claim Joseph practiced polygamy accuse him of being a bare-faced liar. There is no way passed this. He got up in front of around 3,000 Saints six weeks or so before he died and declared that he only had one wife, had only ever had one wife, and was not a polygamist, and could prove all who say otherwise liars. Those who want to pin polygamy on Joseph have to believe his statement was a lie.

I believe Joseph was a truthful man. I believe he told the truth about seeing God, the gold plates, priesthood restoration etc, and about his marital status.  

But everyone else lied?  Other church leaders, faithful women and the next few Proohets who knew Joseph all lied too?  And there are contemporary evidence and writings, but you refuse to read them it seems.

Also I’ve been following this thread and I’ll issues another CFR for what you said about William Clayton’s journal.  

CFR 

Please provide a source supporting your claim.  You stated you have one and would post it.  I’ve been waiting to read what’s in the source you said you have.

Edited May 4, 2018 by JulieM

[Marginal Gains]

56 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Given that Mormon polygamy is well documented and accepted as having happened, even to the extent of an official declaration to end it, what difference does it make to the overall picture for you whether Joseph did or didn’t join in? I guess I’m asking why it’s so important to you that Joseph wasn’t a polygamist, when clearly a lot of other Apostles and subsequent Prophets were?

 

42 minutes ago, Alan said:

Because those who claim Joseph practiced polygamy accuse him of being a bare-faced liar. There is no way passed this. He got up in front of around 3,000 Saints six weeks or so before he died and declared that he only had one wife, had only ever had one wife, and was not a polygamist, and could prove all who say otherwise liars. Those who want to pin polygamy on Joseph have to believe his statement was a lie.

I believe Joseph was a truthful man. I believe he told the truth about seeing God, the gold plates, priesthood restoration etc, and about his marital status.  

If Joseph had lived polygamously, would that change your view about his claims about the other events you reference?