Glenn101 Posted April 19, 2018 Posted April 19, 2018 21 hours ago, Exiled said: If JS never practiced polygamy, I think it would lend credence to JS III's claims to succession. Wasn't this a big issue in the late 1800's and spilled over to the temple lot case? If JS didn't practice it, maybe he really intended for the RLDS to grab the torch instead of BY? Or maybe the bickertonites of Alice Cooper's father's faith (I think his father was an apostle in that branch)? School's out for summer ... forever ... Since we are envisioning an alternate reality, you could be right. Jose[h Smith III led the Saints to Utah......
Alan Posted April 19, 2018 Posted April 19, 2018 On 18/04/2018 at 12:11 AM, JLHPROF said: Same thing, last I read the words of the sealing ceremony. Not in Nauvoo it wasn't. Marriage was Marriage, sealing was sealing. That much is absolutely clear... at least to me it is. It is only once the Saints were in Utah that the two became conflated to such as extent that they actually became considered to be the same thing. Here in England we have to get married legally (usually in the church with a registrar present and the ceremony open to the public) and then have that marriage sealed in the temple sometime later. Because the US and Canadian governments recognize temple sealing as marriage you tend to view it as the same thing. However, on this side of the pond they are two distinct ceremonies. The same was true in Nauvoo. In fact, the D&C of the day even detailed what was required for a marriage ceremony. It had to be public and legal. 1
Tacenda Posted April 19, 2018 Posted April 19, 2018 I believe that had Joseph Smith never started polygamy, the FLDS's horrific abuse cases would never have happened, along with Elizabeth Smart's abduction and rape, and countless other abuses that have occurred in other polygamists sects out there. If God didn't condone polygamy, Joseph will have to face the consequences of so many lives damaged, and many more that continue being damaged.
Alan Posted April 19, 2018 Posted April 19, 2018 28 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I believe that had Joseph Smith never started polygamy, the FLDS's horrific abuse cases would never have happened, along with Elizabeth Smart's abduction and rape, and countless other abuses that have occurred in other polygamists sects out there. If God didn't condone polygamy, Joseph will have to face the consequences of so many lives damaged, and many more that continue being damaged. So Joseph is to blame for the sins and abuses of others? If so, perhaps he should get all the credit for any good you and do as members of the church. 1
Jeanne Posted April 19, 2018 Posted April 19, 2018 38 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I believe that had Joseph Smith never started polygamy, the FLDS's horrific abuse cases would never have happened, along with Elizabeth Smart's abduction and rape, and countless other abuses that have occurred in other polygamists sects out there. If God didn't condone polygamy, Joseph will have to face the consequences of so many lives damaged, and many more that continue being damaged. Exactly. I so agree. Those brothers that killed their sister in law and her baby...came from this mindset. I do not believe this came from God.
Jeanne Posted April 19, 2018 Posted April 19, 2018 Mayb 9 minutes ago, Alan said: So Joseph is to blame for the sins and abuses of others? If so, perhaps he should get all the credit for any good you and do as members of the church. Maybe blame is a harsh word...but he should be held accountable if this not from God...it also makes him a liar..and that is a personal sin to be condemned of.
hope_for_things Posted April 19, 2018 Posted April 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I believe that had Joseph Smith never started polygamy, the FLDS's horrific abuse cases would never have happened, along with Elizabeth Smart's abduction and rape, and countless other abuses that have occurred in other polygamists sects out there. If God didn't condone polygamy, Joseph will have to face the consequences of so many lives damaged, and many more that continue being damaged. Absolutely, this is all part of the legacy of the polygamy that Joseph started. This is partly why I can't just agree with those who think polygamy is a blessing for various reasons that they state. I see so much more bad than any possible good that came from polygamy. 1
Alan Posted April 19, 2018 Posted April 19, 2018 36 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Mayb Maybe blame is a harsh word...but he should be held accountable if this not from God...it also makes him a liar..and that is a personal sin to be condemned of. Ah... but what if it is from God? You would then be held accountable for condemning God's revelation to his prophet. These things cut both ways. The way I look at it: Joseph had his stewardship and I have mine. I have far too much on my plate right now to worry about Joseph's. I believe he remained a true prophet until his final breath. But the question that concerns me most is, will I do the same. 3
Jeanne Posted April 19, 2018 Posted April 19, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Alan said: Ah... but what if it is from God? You would then be held accountable for condemning God's revelation to his prophet. These things cut both ways. The way I look at it: Joseph had his stewardship and I have mine. I have far too much on my plate right now to worry about Joseph's. I believe he remained a true prophet until his final breath. But the question that concerns me most is, will I do the same. Seriouslly...either way..it hasn't been made clear from God. I think Joseph slipped away ...made mistakes..which why there are scriptures in the D&C where God is always forgiving him of his sins..personally, I think he had a problem. This does not take away his charity and love for others. Edited April 19, 2018 by Jeanne
Calm Posted April 19, 2018 Posted April 19, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: I believe that had Joseph Smith never started polygamy, the FLDS's horrific abuse cases would never have happened, along with Elizabeth Smart's abduction and rape, and countless other abuses that have occurred in other polygamists sects out there. If God didn't condone polygamy, Joseph will have to face the consequences of so many lives damaged, and many more that continue being damaged. Because nothing like that has ever happened outside of Mormonism or any of its breakoff sects. Edited April 19, 2018 by Calm 2
cinepro Posted April 19, 2018 Posted April 19, 2018 My thought whenever I read the question posed in the title is "Well, won't Helen Mar Kimball be so relieved...?" 1
Jeanne Posted April 19, 2018 Posted April 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, cinepro said: My thought whenever I read the question posed in the title is "Well, won't Helen Mar Kimball be so relieved...?"
theplains Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 On 17/04/2018 at 7:12 PM, Calm said: It can be interpreted that way, but the law discussed does not have to refer to plural marriage: "28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the lawof my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was. 29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne. 30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them. 31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself." Verse 31 is the key. The context is Abraham and plural marriage ... of which the Mormon Heavenly Father glorified himself. Jim
theplains Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 On 17/04/2018 at 7:17 PM, JLHPROF said: Jesus and Heavenly Father both lived plural marriage, else the would have no right to require it as part of their eternal gospel at any point. Do you have a scripture which shows Jesus even had one wife, let alone more? Jim
Tacenda Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 On 4/19/2018 at 11:30 AM, Alan said: Ah... but what if it is from God? You would then be held accountable for condemning God's revelation to his prophet. These things cut both ways. The way I look at it: Joseph had his stewardship and I have mine. I have far too much on my plate right now to worry about Joseph's. I believe he remained a true prophet until his final breath. But the question that concerns me most is, will I do the same. Free agency?
JLHPROF Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 2 hours ago, theplains said: Do you have a scripture which shows Jesus even had one wife, let alone more? Well there are several scriptures I believe point towards a married Christ, even a polygamous Christ. But the are subject to interpretation so not worth getting bogged down by right now. But I have a different question. Do you have one proving he didn't? I realize the onus is on the one claiming something happened, but in what way does the limited detail in the Bible lead us to doubt his marital status? Remember, the Bible mentions Christ's infancy, his teaching in the temple age 12, and the jumps to his ministry around age 33. That's TWO DECADES of his life we have no Biblical record of (a few apocryphal texts but nothing biblical). What do you think he did from age 12 to 32? What did most young men in that society do? 1
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 Personally I believe JS fought against polygamy. This is a small article I wrote about one facet of LDS D&C 132. https://seekingyhwh.com/2017/05/02/2-nephi-288-vs-lds-dc-13226/
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 This is a great resource. https://theexonerationofemmajosephandhyrum.com/
Marginal Gains Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said: Personally I believe JS fought against polygamy. This is a small article I wrote about one facet of LDS D&C 132. https://seekingyhwh.com/2017/05/02/2-nephi-288-vs-lds-dc-13226/ But lost....at least 33 times.... 2
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 18 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: But lost....at least 33 times.... lol that is a funny way of saying you disagree with me. But seriously there is much support that JS fought against it and never practiced it.
JLHPROF Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said: lol that is a funny way of saying you disagree with me. But seriously there is much support that JS fought against it and never practiced it. There really isn't. There is one book (2 volumes) by the Price's and pretty much every scholar recognizes them as bad history.
ALarson Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: There really isn't. There is one book (2 volumes) by the Price's and pretty much every scholar recognizes them as bad history. Yeah, I've read their two books. What a disaster, IMO. Not well documented and lots of stating their own opinions and theories as facts. I couldn't recommend them.
ALarson Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 10 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said: lol that is a funny way of saying you disagree with me. But seriously there is much support that JS fought against it and never practiced it. He only fought it publicly, but I agree he outwardly appeared to fight it at times. But there is much, much more support, documentation and actual records that he lived the principle of plural marriage. A whole lot of people (including many of Joseph's wives and friends) would have to be telling some pretty big lies for that not to be the truth.
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: There really isn't. There is one book (2 volumes) by the Price's and pretty much every scholar recognizes them as bad history. There is much more than that, in fact I shared one.https://theexonerationofemmajosephandhyrum.com/
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, ALarson said: He only fought it publicly, but I agree he outwardly appeared to fight it at times. But there is much, much more support, documentation and actual records that he lived the principle of plural marriage. A whole lot of people (including many of Joseph's wives and friends) would have to be telling some pretty big lies for that not to be the truth. So you believe JS was a liar? I don't I believe him when he said he only had one wife. 2 Nephi 9:34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell. 2 Nephi 26 32 And again, the Lord God hath commanded that men should not murder; that they should not lie; that they should not steal; that they should not take the name of the Lord their God in vain; that they should not envy; that they should not have malice; that they should not contend one with another; that they should not commit whoredoms; and that they should do none of these things; for whoso doeth them shall perish. 33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord;
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