bluebell Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, snowflake said: Anchor stones, Tower or babel (in Iraq), how the egyptians built the pyramids (literally hundreds of "experts" claim this), crucifixion site of Christ (Golgotha). I found this about the finding of the Tower of babel, but the timeline doesn't work so it can't be the Tower that is spoken in the bible. Can you link to the finding that you are talking about? I know what experts have said about how the Egyptians built the pyramids (they were built by Egyptian workers, not slaves). Does that substantiate the bible somehow? I also can't find anything about the location of Golgotha. I've read numerous 'possible' sites but nothing that has been authenticated in any substantial way. Can you link to the findings you are talking about on that location?
mfbukowski Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) 42 minutes ago, snowflake said: This dude was like a modern day Indiana Jones! Many of the items listed above have been found....the Bible has been authenticated by literally tens of thousand of places and archaeological finds. Which proves Jesus died for YOU right? You can prove that with archaeology? Then what good does the archaeology do for you? Can you find a rock that proves you are saved? Is that just a tiny tiny bit like looking at rocks and inanimate objects for your salvation? I don't want to be mean, I just want to raise the question about how science can prove mankind's salvation- I don't think that is possible, so why even look there for "evidence"? Edited April 17, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
JAHS Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: What do you believe? Joseph Smith's translation in the Book of Moses says the following: "And the Lord said unto Noah: My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for he shall know that all flesh shall die; yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years; and if men do not repent, I will send in the floods upon them. And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth." (Moses 8: 17, 30) Sounds like a real global flood happened to me. If it didn't really happen Joseph Smith would not have received the revelation to write this in the Book of Moses. 2
rongo Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 1 minute ago, JAHS said: Joseph Smith's translation in the Book of Moses says the following: "And the Lord said unto Noah: My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for he shall know that all flesh shall die; yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years; and if men do not repent, I will send in the floods upon them. And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth." (Moses 8: 17, 30) Sounds like a real global flood happened to me. If it didn't really happen Joseph Smith would not have received the revelation to write this in the Book of Moses. You also have Ether 13:2, which speaks of the Jaredite/Nephite land as being a promised land "after the waters had receded off the face of this land" --- and others. There is a reason why the only official items appearing in Church materials or from General Authorities are in favor of a global flood. There is a tension between the "simple" members who believe this, and the "nuanced" members who don't. The only reason why they don't is because they find it to be impossible and incredible, with a little embarrassment of how the world sees it now. So, they go for the slippery slope that leads to really none of the Bible events really happening until you get to Jesus. The "red line" is that you have to believe that Jesus really lived and that he really rose from the dead, or you're not really a Mormon or a Christian in any meaningful way. 2
Jeanne Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, JAHS said: Joseph Smith's translation in the Book of Moses says the following: "And the Lord said unto Noah: My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for he shall know that all flesh shall die; yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years; and if men do not repent, I will send in the floods upon them. And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth." (Moses 8: 17, 30) Sounds like a real global flood happened to me. If it didn't really happen Joseph Smith would not have received the revelation to write this in the Book of Moses. .. Thank you for your response and why you believe.
Jeanne Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 32 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Seriously? Of course if you are speaking of it as a non-allegorical account of "what really happened" historically. I believe in it whole heartedly as a story of God's redemption of mankind and the re-creation of the earth spiritually, for each of us, and as quite pertinent to today as the earth is flooded and drowning in our own....."blood and sins of this generation". Each of us needs to build our own ark and reconstruct our worlds according to God's plan for us. Yeah seriously...there are all kinds of interpretations of just Adam and Eve...and whether the Book of Mormon is real history or not..there are believers on all levels and that is why I asked. Thank you for your response.
snowflake Posted April 17, 2018 Author Posted April 17, 2018 21 minutes ago, bluebell said: I found this about the finding of the Tower of babel, but the timeline doesn't work so it can't be the Tower that is spoken in the bible. Can you link to the finding that you are talking about? Sorry, I was thinking of the tower in in Iraq built by Nebuchadnezzar, my error. 26 minutes ago, bluebell said: I also can't find anything about the location of Golgotha. I've read numerous 'possible' sites but nothing that has been authenticated in any substantial way. Can you link to the findings you are talking about on that location? Apparently it has been narrowed to two possible sites. https://www.britannica.com/place/Golgotha 1
pogi Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 3 hours ago, snowflake said: The government of Turkey recognizes a site as such.. "in the mountains of Ararat"... that has some very interesting finds. I know.....call me crazy..... but this seems to be a man made ship way up in the mountains and Wyatt was convincing enough to have the government of Turkey designate it as such. I don't think it would require that much convincing once you consider the tourism potential for such a site. 1
snowflake Posted April 17, 2018 Author Posted April 17, 2018 30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Which proves Jesus died for YOU right? You can prove that with archaeology? Then what good does the archaeology do for you? Can you find a rock that proves you are saved? Is that just a tiny tiny bit like looking at rocks and inanimate objects for your salvation? I don't want to be mean, I just want to raise the question about how science can prove mankind's salvation- I don't think that is possible, so why even look there for "evidence"? How would you suggest someone "prove" anything historically has ever happened? Yeah I am with you, I don't think it is possible to prove mankind's salvation "scientifically".
JAHS Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 20 minutes ago, rongo said: There is a tension between the "simple" members who believe this, and the "nuanced" members who don't. The only reason why they don't is because they find it to be impossible and incredible, with a little embarrassment of how the world sees it now. I kind of understand why they do this, when in our day you just don't see any of those dramatic miracles happening the way they did back in the Old Testament times or even some of the things Jesus did. If those things are not happening today when we have the restored gospel and prophets and priesthood power, they question as to whether they really happened back then.
mfbukowski Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, snowflake said: How would you suggest someone "prove" anything historically has ever happened? Yeah I am with you, I don't think it is possible to prove mankind's salvation "scientifically". Looking at the preponderance of the evidence we RECONSTRUCT our best guess and interpretation of "what happened". The BEST we can hope for is "beyond a reasonable doubt". There are only interpretations of history available to us, short of having a time machine. Some stuff is easy- "what must have happened" That is why it is called "His- Story". Your story may differ. 1
snowflake Posted April 17, 2018 Author Posted April 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Looking at the preponderance of the evidence we RECONSTRUCT our best guess and interpretation of "what happened". The BEST we can hope for is "beyond a reasonable doubt". There are only interpretations of history available to us, short of having a time machine. Some stuff is easy- "what must have happened" That is why it is called "His- Story". Your story may differ. So if we look at the 4 Gospels, they are written as "eyewitness accounts" from 4 different points of view on the life of Jesus of Nazareth. Would you consider these stories as evidence? Does the existence of Jerusalem, Judiasm, the temple mount etc. give any evidence to the gospel narrative?
pogi Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 4 hours ago, snowflake said: I've been fascinated with the story of Noah's ark since I was a kid.....never really believing the story until I became a Christ follower. Has anyone done any research into Ron Wyatt and his claim that Noah's ark has been found? The government of Turkey recognizes a site as such.. "in the mountains of Ararat"... that has some very interesting finds. I know.....call me crazy..... but this seems to be a man made ship way up in the mountains and Wyatt was convincing enough to have the government of Turkey designate it as such. http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm Also, here is a video on the research done by Wyatt. If the mountains of Ararat is the epicenter of all modern life, not only would expect to find the remains of a ship, but we would along with that expect to see fossil remains of every kind of animal/insect life there, including indigenous species to North America, the tropical jungles of south east Asia, and the deserts of Africa and Australia. We should see fossil of kangaroos from Turkey to Australia. As soon as someone finds a kangaroo fossil or a North American Bison fossil, or a red-eyed Amazonian tree frog fossil around the area of Turkey, then give me a call. 3
RevTestament Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 1 hour ago, snowflake said: This dude was like a modern day Indiana Jones! And just as real too! Quote Many of the items listed above have been found....the Bible has been authenticated by literally tens of thousand of places and archaeological finds. The Bible has, but none of them from Mr Wyatt. I unencourage you to spend your last hard-earned dollar to go see Mr Wyatt's museum... He had a large, and I believe, fraudulent imagination. Have you ever seen his Sodom and Gomorrah? It's a series of cliff faces south of the Dead Sea, LOL. First of all I encourage you to examine the text, and you will find that the most logical place for Sodom was in the "kikkar of the Jordan." This was an area north of the Dead Sea, rather than south of it, and corresponds to the land Abraham gave Lot - the well-watered plain. Try finding that south of the Dead Sea. His chariot wheels were pictures of dead brain corals. No one has been able to substantiate any of his alleged pictures off Nuweiba Beach either. Most of his work is completely fraudulent, and unfortunately give a bad rep for real archaeologists who are true Biblical apologists. You are right that the Bible has been authenticated by thousands of archaeological finds and places, but all Wyatt did was damage that work.
mfbukowski Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, snowflake said: So if we look at the 4 Gospels, they are written as "eyewitness accounts" from 4 different points of view on the life of Jesus of Nazareth. Would you consider these stories as evidence? Does the existence of Jerusalem, Judiasm, the temple mount etc. give any evidence to the gospel narrative? They were all written much after the time of Jesus. Yes they give evidence that that something happened. For me everything else is confirmed by the spirit. That is the only evidence that counts for me. That is more than I need. I demand my own evidence directly from God. Hearsay written hundreds of years after something happened would not stand up in court. Yet God speaks directly to my spirit that I know these things are true. If there is a God he must be able to communicate to us individually or else how are we to know that? Are we not individually saved? Would God risk our personal salvation on us accepting hearsay evidence.? How could God answer my prayers if he cannot hear me and I hear him? In God I trust all others pay cash.
mnn727 Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: Is there any LDS on this board that does not believe in the story of Noah's Ark? I don't believe it as given -- ie a world-wide flood that killed everyone. or that Noah saved a pair of every animal on the planet. I believe there was a large but localized flood, or perhaps a tsunami that flooded a large region. You could explain the 40 days of rain and the flood by a meteor or comet strike in the ocean throwing up enormous amounts of water in the air which would have to come down as rain along with a tsunami sweeping the ark out to sea. To a primitive people without modern satellite and weather radar, I'm sure it appeared like the entire world was under water. 2
snowflake Posted April 17, 2018 Author Posted April 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: They were all written much after the time of Jesus. Yes they give evidence that that something happened. For me everything else is confirmed by the spirit. That is the only evidence that counts for me. That is more than I need. I demand my own evidence directly from God. Hearsay written hundreds of years after something happened would not stand up in court. Yet God speaks directly to my spirit that I know these things are true. If there is a God he must be able to communicate to us individually or else how are we to know that? Are we not individually saved? Would God risk our personal salvation on us accepting hearsay evidence.? How could God answer my prayers if he cannot hear me and I hear him? In God I trust all others pay cash. How did you ever come to know Jesus? Your disrespect for the Holy Bible really surprises me. I find it odd that you believe you can speak directly to God, but you can't trust God's word, or that he is incapable of preserving an accurate set of scriptures for us.
rongo Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, mnn727 said: I don't believe it as given -- ie a world-wide flood that killed everyone. or that Noah saved a pair of every animal on the planet. I believe there was a large but localized flood, or perhaps a tsunami that flooded a large region. You could explain the 40 days of rain and the flood by a meteor or comet strike in the ocean throwing up enormous amounts of water in the air which would have to come down as rain along with a tsunami sweeping the ark out to sea. To a primitive people without modern satellite and weather radar, I'm sure it appeared like the entire world was under water. What do you do with JST (Book of Moses) and BoM passages that perpetuate the "mistaken notion of primitive people" explanation, though? Why did God perpetuate the myth in translated scripture?
mfbukowski Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, snowflake said: How did you ever come to know Jesus? Your disrespect for the Holy Bible really surprises me. I find it odd that you believe you can speak directly to God, but you can't trust God's word, or that he is incapable of preserving an accurate set of scriptures for us. God told me it is his word. That's all I need. And you call that disrespect? How can anyone know that Jesus even existed without God telling him that He is the savior of mankind? How can you possibly know the Bible is the word of God without God telling you so? You just believe anybody that they are a prophet? Edited April 17, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) Nevermind Edited April 17, 2018 by mfbukowski
mnn727 Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, snowflake said: How did you ever come to know Jesus? Your disrespect for the Holy Bible really surprises me. I find it odd that you believe you can speak directly to God, but you can't trust God's word, or that he is incapable of preserving an accurate set of scriptures for us. Funny as we don't believe in scriptural inerrancy or that God doesn't let mankind make mistakes or corrupt the Bible. Thats a Protestant Evangelical belief NOT an LDS belief Edited April 17, 2018 by mnn727
mnn727 Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 28 minutes ago, rongo said: What do you do with JST (Book of Moses) and BoM passages that perpetuate the "mistaken notion of primitive people" explanation, though? Why did God perpetuate the myth in translated scripture? Read my above answer on scriptural inerrancy.
cinepro Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 49 minutes ago, mnn727 said: To a primitive people without modern satellite and weather radar, I'm sure it appeared like the entire world was under water. How would it look to a prophet that was taken up in a vision and shown the entire planet and its history? 2
mfbukowski Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, mnn727 said: Funny as we don't believe in scriptural inerrancy or that God doesn't let mankind make mistakes or corrupt the Bible. Thats a Protestant Evangelical belief NOT an LDS belief Yes one might even believe that God is capable of preserving the scriptures but it is an entirely different question about whether or not what people say are scriptures are are indeed Gods scriptures. Worldwide there are thousands of writings claiming to be scripture how can we know which one was the true one? Or for that matter maybe all of them are true. They rarely contradict each other. To me it feels like an unthinking assumption that yes of course the Bible must be God's word because we take it to be such. After all we are the only people who could possibly be worshipping the true God. It's just even seems weird to me to think that way and then calling it disrespect for even bringing up the question Edited April 17, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, cinepro said: How would it look to a prophet that was taken up in a vision and shown the entire planet and its history? You answer your own question with the words "in vision" It would look however it looked him. That doesn't answer the question of how it would have looked to an astronaut. Of course the answer to either question is unknowable, so why bother with it? Edited April 17, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
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