Popular Post JarMan Posted March 22, 2018 Popular Post Posted March 22, 2018 Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing? 6
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 30 minutes ago, JarMan said: Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing? Symbolism. Read some Kabbala. 3
cdowis Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, JarMan said: Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing? Turn off your critica/ skeptical l mind, and try to learn the spiritual lessons it gives us. Such as, what can I learn from the story of Noah in my personal life rather than focusing on the probability of a universal flood. Be assured that eventually all things will be revealed to us and we need to be patient til then. It may help to ponder on the quantum reality and how "impossible" it is, but yet it is real. WE simply do not know all things. Edited March 22, 2018 by cdowis 1
Popular Post Kevin Christensen Posted March 22, 2018 Popular Post Posted March 22, 2018 Start with Robert Alter, The Art of Biblical Narrative. And don't assume that you are supposed to approve of everything and everyone you see. And then perhaps, turn to Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible? for some of the layering and separate agendas, and then Barker's The Older Testament for finer detail into what got left out and why, and Northrop Frye, The Great Code for more light on the significance of what we have and how to appreciate it. All of that is in keeping with an observation by Brigham Young, “There is one principle I wish to urge upon the Saints in a way that it may remain with them—that is, to understand men and women as they are, and not understand them as you are.” (JD 8:37). FWIW, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 8
snowflake Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 7 hours ago, JarMan said: Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing? by J.C.Ryle 1. Read the Bible with an earnest desire to understand it. 2. Read the Bible with a simple, childlike faith and humility. 3. Read the Word with a spirit of obedience and self-application. 4. Read the Holy Scriptures everyday. 5.Read the whole Bible, and read it in an orderly way. 6. Read the Word of God fairly and honestly. 7. Read the Bible with Christ constantly in view. Remeber the OT is a story about a nation, the NT is a story about a Man (Jesus). 2
CV75 Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 7 hours ago, JarMan said: Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing? Sometimes we put our own spin on things, too. Maybe you can think outside the box for a few more categories. Having read it through twice before joining the Church in college (the first time at age 10). Even at 10, I knew something was "off" -- granted I actually understood very little -- but saw how overall it promoted conscience over immorality. I just figured in the old days things were more severe and people responded more to a stick. Plus all the blessings seemed to be about cattle and grain and security; I sensed at some point Jesus would put that into perspective. 2
bluebell Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 I struggle with it when i read it straight through, story style. If i read it by topical guide topic then I get WAY more out of and have been impressed with some of the insights that i've gotten from different verses. Doing it that way is the only way that I can distract myself from the other stuff that I don't understand and which makes no sense to me. 2
hope_for_things Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 7 hours ago, JarMan said: Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing? Personal study has helped, I agree that the lesson manuals are significantly lacking. Here are a few books I've read so far this year, that have really been interesting and helped me to appreciate the bible better. I also got a study bible that has been really helpful. Mormons and the Bible - Phillip L. Barlow Authoring the Old Testament - David Bokovoy Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes - E. Randolph Richards Wide as the Waters: The Story of the English Bible and the Revolution it Inspired - Benson Bobrick A World Ablaze: The Rise of Martin Luther and the Birth of the Reformation - Craig Harline Ancient Israel: From Abraham to the Roman Destruction of the Temple - Hershel Shanks Jewish Study Bible: Second Edition - Adele Berlin and Marc Zvi Brettler Lots of good stuff, definitely keeps me interested. Also if you like podcasts I would recommend these two by Mormon scholars: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/discovering-the-old-testament/id737344068?mt=2 https://gregkofford.com/blogs/authorcast You have to search for the David Bokovoy episodes, one episode per Sunday School lesson. Hope some of that might help. 2
mnn727 Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, JarMan said: Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing? Disclaimer: My 2 cents and only applies to my personal beliefs. I tend to think of much of the O.T. as not being historical. rather mans attempts to explain what they didn't understand (Most of Genesis) and mans attempts to explain their dealings with and beliefs in God in many cases using Him to explain away their bad behavior. I also see faith promoting stories like Moses' meeting with Pharaoh, Elijah and the Priests of Baal, Jonah, and Job and even Joseph, that I doubt have any basis (or little basis) in reality. Were I given the task to re-write all scripture today, I'd probably leave the O.T. out. Edited March 22, 2018 by mnn727 1
Popular Post The Nehor Posted March 22, 2018 Popular Post Posted March 22, 2018 11 hours ago, JarMan said: Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing? You are not finding the fun in the 4 points you brought up. The Old Testament is the best. Talking donkeys, our enemies are all products of drunken incest, prophets siccing bears on people, petty family rivalries, it has it all. Plus it has immense spiritual comfort. If people this messed up are exalted there is hope for me. 9
Maidservant Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) Out of all the scriptures, the Old Testament is my favorite. I always feel like I have entered the Holy of Holies. It was prepared, not as a history, but as a template for progression, initiation, and transformation of the individual AND OF SOCIETY AS A WHOLE; according to "the learning of the Jews" 1 Ne 1:2, 2 Ne 25:1-2 (Of possible value to also review: 1 Ne 14:23; 2 Ne 13:23; Jacob 4:14. You can see that Nephi wasn't much of a fan of the OT, either.). The OT is a book of code and symbolism. It is a map. (The map continues with the addition of the New Testament.) The center of the Old Testament for me is in Exodus 3:14: I AM THAT I AM. Then I go from there. The entire Old Testament is worth that one phrase to me. But, of course, there are endless treasures in it. We often think of the Genesis as matching the endowment, but what I understand is that the further portions of Genesis (and of the entire OT) are further portions of the endowment. According to me, but it is what I have come to see. So I study them as symbolisms and templates for further initiations into NOT what seems to be written, but rather the arc of the progression of mankind (individually and as a whole) from before this earth life, during earth life, and beyond earth life. When Jews learn traditionally, first they learn the stories by rote. They do have to know the stories as written. But once the stories are memorized as if the learner was a child, then comes the next stage. They use the stories in many different ways, tear them apart even (midrash). They leave behind the surface and go to the depths, where it turns out, it may have nothing to do with the front story. I do think that the Church teaches the stories incorrectly, as stories of faith and ethics. That is a failure of the legacy that the Old Testament is (according to my opinion). When I was trying to teach how Moses killed an Egyptian to a bunch of nine year olds, I was very upset, knowing that this story was not for them. That they did not have the tools to understand. That it was being told in an ethical, faithful way rather than a symbolic, transformative way (as the entire template of Moses is, which is not as much about how to obey God, but how to DISOBEY Pharoah--which is a lesson we don't want generally, no thank you). But manslaughter ought not to be a feature of ethics and faith taught to a nine-year-old (at least in general, at church; what parents are able to do at home, go for it). (Now, of course, Moses was defending another man.) Edited March 22, 2018 by Maidservant 1
Popular Post cinepro Posted March 22, 2018 Popular Post Posted March 22, 2018 13 hours ago, JarMan said: Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing? I think I know where the problem is. When we study the Old Testament in Gospel Doctrine, the Church has done a great job of carefully selecting which verses you should be reading in each chapter, and then explaining how you should understand those verses. If you're "struggling", it sounds like you may have accidentally read some of the verses that aren't recommended, or not wholly accepted the approved explanations. Either mistake is easily rectified. 5
The Nehor Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, cinepro said: I think I know where the problem is. When we study the Old Testament in Gospel Doctrine, the Church has done a great job of carefully selecting which verses you should be reading in each chapter, and then explaining how you should understand those verses. If you're "struggling", it sounds like you may have accidentally read some of the verses that aren't recommended, or not wholly accepted the approved explanations. Either mistake is easily rectified. Yeah, I taught Gospel Doctrine a few weeks back and almost asked someone to read the Lot’s daughters getting him drunk story and then ask what the class takes from this account to see what anyone came up with. Then I realized I wanted to be asked to teach again. 2
snowflake Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 14 hours ago, JarMan said: Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing? The New Testament is in the old testament..... concealed, The Old Testament is in the new testament....revealed. 2
Guest Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 14 hours ago, JarMan said: Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing? It is being honest, and showing the consequences of sin, and willful disobedience. But it also shows that God can and does use flawed me, sometimes "deeply" flawed men and women to bring forth his works and words. Having said that, you are correct, some stories are just terribly disturbing. 1
JarMan Posted March 22, 2018 Author Posted March 22, 2018 Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. There is a lot I need to learn about the OT but I'm finding that the more I learn the less likely I am to find something of spiritual value or to believe the manual. I've been studying a modern translation (NRSB) and that has helped a lot. I've also looked at various online chapter-by-chapter commentaries which has also helped. The problem with some of those, though, is I don't always know the commentator's credentials or background. (Online recommendations would be appreciated though I am planning on reading a couple of the books suggested, as well.) Last week I taught Genesis 24-29. There are a bunch of weird stories but one of the overarching themes was marriage. The lesson manual is insistent that Isaac and Jacob were marrying "in the covenant." From reading the stories I didn't get that at all. I got that they were marrying "in the family." Abraham's father and brother were idol worshipers, not people who shared in Abraham's religion, so when a suitable wife was being sought from among those people it sure doesn't look like marriage for them had a religious purpose. I suggested to the class that marriage partners were being chosen as a way to keep the family wealth in the family. I got some raised eyebrows and wrinkled faces from that. But I just couldn't get myself to parrot the idea that these ancient marriages were actually celestial marriages among people who shared a religion. I made the point that we are supposed to take from the story a message of marriage in the covenant, but that we shouldn't mistake the message we are supposed to take from the story as being equivalent to the actual story. More raised eyebrows and wrinkled faces. 3
RevTestament Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 13 hours ago, JarMan said: Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. I believe the OT to be much more steeped in symbology than most people interpret it. I think a lot of the OT cannot be understood until its symbolism is understood. Once one understands that, the OT begins to form into a cohesive whole. However, I agree, it is not so plain as the BoM. Especially just trying to sit down and read the KJV, I think will leave one with misconceptions. I suggest studying it with a Revised English Version like the Oxford Annotated. However, I often do not agree with commentaries and annotations about the OT so be forewarned that they are usually a majority viewpoint, and may not be right. It is important to try to understand the contextual background of the OT, as cultural traditions are usually assumed, and may be completely missed by the modern reader. I have found the usual Church materials to be lacking in this area. Quote And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing? I have given up on trying to correct the Church or broaden the discussion - correlated materials are like "revelation," and I carry no clout. If what I believe is true, I believe the spirit will eventually confirm it. I simply learn stuff on my own. Once one gets past basics, the lesson manuals aren't really a means of any new insight or revelation(at least for me), and any interpretation beyond what's in the manual is dissuaded. Sorry, that's probably not too helpful to you - just an observation. However, you are welcome to post questions here. I for one will probably enjoy answering them. Perhaps an Institute Manual will prove more useful that the GD manual, and are available at LDS.org now. Here is the OT teacher's manual: https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/32490_eng.pdf?lang=eng 1
Mike Harris Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 D&C 42:12 "the...teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon". When I read the scriptures, especially the Old Testament, through that lens, then scripture inspiring. Not every verse of scripture is as historical as we make it out to be. For the authors, teaching true principles was objective number one. Judah and Tamar (Gen 38)=(King David's and the Savior's forebearers) PRINCIPLE: no matter our lineage or how broken of a family life we come from, our choices and the Lord's help we can break the chain of destruction. "Reuben lay with Bilhah" (Gen 35:22)= PRINCIPLE: even the very elect (which is both Reuben and Bilhah) can be deceived and fall. (see also D&C 3:4) Brant Gardner insights about Mormon (Moroni's father) is applicable to the the Old Testament writers, " "[Mormon] is hardly like a modern historian at all, but much more like the historians of antiquity in his relationship to his source material. Mormon’s purposes were didactive, not reconstructive. He told a moral story, where the moral was more important that the facts. Mormon often manipulated his facts into the moral story he was telling, and at times (he or perhaps the original plate author) simply invented 'history” when the story required it and neither he, nor the original plate author, could not have known it. Does any of this mean that Mormon was less than a prophet? Absolutely not. What it means is that his understanding of his task was appropriately ancient. He wrote with the historical sensibilities of the ancient world, which necessarily saw all events as they fit into and supported their religious understanding. Mormon’s recasting of events into a moral history is [a] most important key to understanding..." (https://publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/review/21/1/S00010-5176a33305fca10Gardner.pdf)
JarMan Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 8 hours ago, snowflake said: The New Testament is in the old testament..... concealed, The Old Testament is in the new testament....revealed. I keep trying to find Christ in the OT. So far I haven't been very successful. I just feel that after-the-fact correlations based on obscure references can be used to find almost anything you want. 1
Kevin Christensen Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 6 hours ago, JarMan said: I keep trying to find Christ in the OT. So far I haven't been very successful. I just feel that after-the-fact correlations based on obscure references can be used to find almost anything you want. Have you read Margaret Barker, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God? I rather think it makes an important contribution. A preview: http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/Atonement.pdf A broad survey of why other scholars missed what ought to be obvious: http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/ReflectionsOnBiblicalStudies.pdf Isaiah 53 in historical and ritual context: http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/FourthServantSong.pdf About deciding what to read in the Old Testament, and what to ignore, and who makes those decisions and to what effect. http://www.templestudiesgroup.com/Papers/2Jul11_TempleHiddenInKings.pdf There is much more. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 1
CV75 Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, JarMan said: I keep trying to find Christ in the OT. So far I haven't been very successful. I just feel that after-the-fact correlations based on obscure references can be used to find almost anything you want. I think this is where we need a key of understanding, which Jesus offered and those after His ascension passed along. The OT texts were only ancillary, a vague reflection of an older oral tradition that had become somewhat corrupted and then only documented in such a state state (while the Jews were captive in Babylon) hundreds of years later. I think as changes in the religion's practices that had accumulated over hundreds of years were corrected under the unrecognized authority of Jesus, things came into perspective for those He taught in His mortal life and then for those He commissioned to spread the word. The OT and NT are really a continuum from the view of those first Christian Jews who believed in both. Edited March 23, 2018 by CV75
Gray Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 I subscribe to Rabbi Ted Falcon's mailing list. He includes spiritual messages based on usually a single passage from Torah, and uses it as a metaphor that supports a spiritual message, like this one: Quote Release the ashes from our hearts In Jewish mystical tradition, the heart is our inner altar, but it is an altar that is all too often smothered beneath yesterday's ashes. Sometimes the ashes of a lifetime threaten to extinguish the flame within us that seeks fresh expression. Like ashes from the sacrificial fire, that accumulation impacts our capacity to be supportive of our own health and the well-being of others. While the elaborate and detailed instructions in this parashah concern the ritual of sacrifice and priestly dress, some of those ancient rituals can serve even now. Every morning, the priests were to take the ashes from the previous day's offerings and carefully remove them from the alter to make it ready for the offerings of a new day. The priest shall then . . . remove the ashes of the burnt offerings consumed by the fire that are on the altar . . . He shall then take the ashes to a ritually clean place outside the camp. The fire of the altar shall be ignited with [the remaining coals] . . . So that there shall be a constant fire kept burning on the altar, without being extinguished. (6:3 - 6 selections) The coals that retain the fire are not removed, for they will ignite wood for the new day. But the ashes left from the day before must be removed from the altar, to allow the fire to burn more cleanly. Our attachment to old dramas, like the ashes from spent fires choking an external altar, clogs our capacity to bring renewed love and compassion into our lives. Every morning, we are asked to release the ashes from moments already lived to allow our inner flame to inspire our greater spiritual evolution. We release our ashes best by remembering that, behind all our roles and history, we carry the Flame of awareness, the Light of consciousness. That radiance can be so easily eclipsed by the stresses we experience, and dimmed behind pretense. When we release the ashes from our hearts, we can remember old pains without any longer carrying them as burdens. Then, each day, we can open ourselves to renewed illumination from our inner heart flame. Our roles are conditional, but the Light we carry is not.
snowflake Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 11 hours ago, JarMan said: I keep trying to find Christ in the OT. So far I haven't been very successful. I just feel that after-the-fact correlations based on obscure references can be used to find almost anything you want. http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/Jesus-in-the-Old-Testament.cfm
The Nehor Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 14 hours ago, JarMan said: I keep trying to find Christ in the OT. So far I haven't been very successful. I just feel that after-the-fact correlations based on obscure references can be used to find almost anything you want. And part of this life is sorting out within ourselves what we really want to find. See, the metaphorical approach is working already.
bluebell Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 15 hours ago, JarMan said: I keep trying to find Christ in the OT. So far I haven't been very successful. I just feel that after-the-fact correlations based on obscure references can be used to find almost anything you want. I feel like it's easier to find Christ in the OT when you compare verses talking about forgiveness/the Messiah in the OT with verses describing Jesus in the other scriptures. For example, reading about the law of moses and sacrifice, and then reading all of the verses that talk about the Lamb of God, really opened my eyes to seeing that phrase in a new light. The OT is like reading a book written in code sometimes. If you don't have the key, it doesn't mean as much.
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