Struggling with the Old Testament

[hope_for_things]

On 3/22/2018 at 3:26 PM, JarMan said:

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. There is a lot I need to learn about the OT but I'm finding that the more I learn the less likely I am to find something of spiritual value or to believe the manual. I've been studying a modern translation (NRSB) and that has helped a lot. I've also looked at various online chapter-by-chapter commentaries which has also helped. The problem with some of those, though, is I don't always know the commentator's credentials or background. (Online recommendations would be appreciated though I am planning on reading a couple of the books suggested, as well.)

For online Bible resources I like the NET bible, it actually works pretty well on a tablet browser too.  And I'm assuming you meant NRSV rather than NRSB as I haven't heard of that before.  That Jewish Study Bible I recommended is excellent, and there is also a Jewish New Testament version of the NRSV that is great, they just released a second edition last year with additional essays and I've heard they are great, I have the 2011 version of this.  

https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Matthew+1

https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Annotated-New-Testament/dp/0190461853/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1521842534&sr=1-1&keywords=annotated+jewish+new+testament

Best of luck in your studies! 

[hope_for_things]

16 hours ago, JarMan said:

I keep trying to find Christ in the OT. So far I haven't been very successful. I just feel that after-the-fact correlations based on obscure references can be used to find almost anything you want.

Just a couple more recommendations.  This is a good book that gets you thinking about the Jewish world that Jesus lived in.  

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310284228/?coliid=I3O9LZ9CCM1WEP&colid=3DENV5AC8WEYS&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

If you want a Mormon approach, this book has recently received some nice press, and I think you'd like it.  

https://www.amazon.com/Whom-That-Lessons-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/1589587073/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1521842842&sr=1-1&keywords=whom+say+ye+that+i+am+lessons+from+the+jesus+of+nazareth

And an interview with the authors that I attended, they were such gracious people, I was really impressed with their story and their research.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A39DLIG65rM

 

[RevTestament]

On 3/22/2018 at 10:50 PM, JarMan said:

I keep trying to find Christ in the OT. So far I haven't been very successful. I just feel that after-the-fact correlations based on obscure references can be used to find almost anything you want.

Jesus/Yeshua said all the prophets had spoken/written of Him, and He opened the eyes of His disciples to the scriptures, so there is truth to what Snowflake says as you quoted him:

On 3/22/2018 at 1:59 PM, snowflake said:

The New Testament is in the old testament..... concealed,

The Old Testament is in the new testament....revealed.

The OT is oft quoted in the NT, because the NT is revealing what the OT is referring to. We must not forget that the BoM does this as well - although it is not so much about Yeshua Himself, but about the restoration in the latter days. Nevertheless, it is a great key to understanding the OT, because Prostestantism usually gets these points wrong. The D&C are also important in properly understanding the OT. As I have alluded, I don't always agree with interpretations of the OT, even in the modern Church, but I do follow scriptural interpretations of the OT, and believe them to be quite illuminating and important. However, there are other future servants in the OT prophesied other than the Messiah, and I believe they are usually misunderstood or ignored by Christianity, so that may be some of the cause of your confusion, Jarman. There is another thread about multiple mortal probations which addresses this a little. Some like Alaris interpret some scriptures to prophesy of a future Davidic servant. This is an example of one area which most Christianity will interpret differently. I see Yeshua in different places than others in the OT, but He is there in the prophets, as He says. It is a most intriguing study. If you would like to discuss various ways to interpret the OT, or what seems to confuse you, I will be happy to discuss them with you, and believe this would make an interesting thread. This would also be most appropriate this year while LDS study the OT in SS.  

[The_Monk]

Get yourself a good study Bible (I like the Jewish Study Bible) and check out some of these. 
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/benjaminthescribe/2017/12/old-testament-resources-part-3-paradigm-changers/

 

[strappinglad]

I too find little spiritual enlightenment in parts of the OT.I just finished sliding through Kings and Chronicles  and if these came down to us from oral traditions , those who memorized the genealogies etc. must have been great minds. Imagine what info would have been lost if one of the memory keepers had come down with a case of early onset Alzheimers .

[Jeanne]

There are parts of Isaiah that i loved..but probably because I didn't understand a hoot ..but lots of the Bible are somewhat like poetry in a way..If I could just get a grip, I know it would be much more interesting and written better than  the Book of Mormon...but when I read..I end up going around to everybody and saying..What Say Ye???!!

[aussieguy55]

Numbers  31:17-18           

¹⁷ Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

¹⁸ But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

So  those who saw their families killed are "sex slaves"?

[aussieguy55]

Love to see Robert Smith's spin on that one.

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, aussieguy55 said:

Love to see Robert Smith's spin on that one.

Numbers  31:17-18           

¹⁷ Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

¹⁸ But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

So  those who saw their families killed are "sex slaves"?

 

Parts like this make me sick. This isn't my God at all. And so much in the Bible that make me think the writers were high on mushrooms/plants.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Numbers  31:17-18           

¹⁷ Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

¹⁸ But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

So  those who saw their families killed are "sex slaves"?

 

Parts like this make me sick. This isn't my God at all. And so much in the Bible that make me think the writers were high on mushrooms/plants.

Yuck..

[strappinglad]

These kinds of stories tell me that the writers in the OT didn't have a PR dept charged with whitewashing . It wouldn't have made it passed the first editor.

A brief review of current practices in some countries show us how easy it is to say " God Said " and use that as the reason to do unspeakable things.

We here should be very thankful we live when and where we do.

[aussieguy55]

Today we have  courts for Crimes against Humanity. We do not kill people because they believe in a different God or have no belief.

[mnn727]

15 hours ago, aussieguy55 said:

Today we have  courts for Crimes against Humanity. We do not kill people because they believe in a different God or have no belief.

We don't, but some do.

[Tacenda]

55 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

We don't, but some do.

So in a way the Bible is evil. The Bible causes more harm then? That's why I am leary of going to another church that may believe that every word of the Bible is true or of God, or God's breath, ha! I can't go there. 

I think the men who wrote some things about women in the bible have caused more women to be abused in fact. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Tacenda

[Maidservant]

I read this today.

It is one way to look at the Old Testament, one that I more or less agree with.  But it shows that there are blessings in the Old Testament, again, beyond just reading something in the OT and taking marching orders from it.  This article is from a Franciscan friar.

Human Development in the Old Testament

[Avatar4321]

I feel like Nephi. I don’t know the meaning of all things, but I know God loves His children.

ive been reading the Old Testament daily. There are many things I don’t understand.

how was Judah justified in hiring his daughter in law as a prostitute?

how did Sampson Ever act as a judge.

david being a man after the Lords heart when he did what I think are questionable things.

is Solomon really the wisest man? Some things seem wise but many I question.

but I have learned a bit. The importance of seers in the Old Testament. The importance David put in not hurting the Lords anointed even when the Lords anointed was way out of line and rejected of the Lord.

 

i don’t understand it all but I do think we can learn a lot from the Spirit

[Bernard Gui]

On 3/21/2018 at 11:42 PM, JarMan said:

Does anyone else struggle with the OT? We are studying it this year in Gospel Doctrine and I am finding it difficult to extract spiritual value. The stories so far seem to fall into these categories: 1) incest, 2) God kills wicked people, 3) mythological, and 4) Abraham or one of the other prophets does something weird. And I think the spin put on the stories by the lesson manual sometimes borders on falsehood. What am I missing?

Two good sources....

From the LDS point of view, The Interpreter has weekly discussions of the Sunday school lessons:

http://interpreterfoundation.org/gospel-doctrine-resource-index/ot-gospel-doctrine-resource-index/

http://interpreterfoundation.org/category/gospel-doctrine-knowhys/old-testament-knowhys/

 

From an orthodox Jewish point of view, The Temple Institute has a long series of lectures on the temple and the Old Testament:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzAJMmlolVXnzXZVU7rlbfQ

[JarMan]

Thanks again for all of the excellent feedback. I’m learning things already. The Benjamin Spackman interview about genre confusion and the Bible was very helpful. Now for a really dumb question. What exactly is a Study Bible and why would a Jewish one be preferable?

[aussieguy55]

Don't you find the story of Samson a bit strange? Why did he not get the picture after the second incident? a bit Duh!!!!

[snowflake]

13 hours ago, JarMan said:

Thanks again for all of the excellent feedback. I’m learning things already. The Benjamin Spackman interview about genre confusion and the Bible was very helpful. Now for a really dumb question. What exactly is a Study Bible and why would a Jewish one be preferable?

A good way to think of a study bible is like having "cliff notes". The study bible will offer context, a history, location, the main characters and themes in the book as well. I prefer study bibles and bible teachers that are not afraid to teach several different "interpretations" or views of different subjects. For example "Sons of God" in Genesis and Job can be taught as "fallen angels".  A different view is that they are the offspring of humans.  Knowing that there are different takes on a particular subject encourages a more in depth study of the passages, and a chance for spiritual growth and biblical understanding.  

I also use several different translations (KJV is still my favorite) but these can also help with some of the language. 

Also good bible teachers, teachers that encourage you to read, study, look at different themes and really dive into the text, I prefer "expository teachers" that focus on the text itself. Unfortunately you will not find much of this within the LDS church.  

[RevTestament]

On 3/26/2018 at 3:54 PM, JarMan said:

Thanks again for all of the excellent feedback. I’m learning things already. The Benjamin Spackman interview about genre confusion and the Bible was very helpful. Now for a really dumb question. What exactly is a Study Bible and why would a Jewish one be preferable?

The Oxford Annotated is an example of a study Bible. As Snowflake says, a study Bible helps give some context to what you are reading. They usually will offer one or more interpretations too in the footnotes as you read along. I was required to purchase an Oxford Annotated Bible years ago when I took a New Testament class. I generally like its translation. Although I have grown up with the KJV, I have developed a few issues with it over the years - probably first and foremost is I believe it tends to hide the names of God. However, sometimes it just isn't a good or correct translation, and I believe it suffers from a few exclusions.  You can pick up a used Oxford Annotated on Amazon.com or probably at most used bookstores. It basically adds footnotes to "The Revised English Bible." A similar one is the Oxford Study Bible. A Jewish Study Bible may offer more in terms of context of Jewish traditions and so forth, and may provide better context for studying the Hebrew OT known as the Masoretic Text, which is essentially the only surviving version of the Hebrew Tanakh. Everything else is a translation such as the Septuagint(Greek), Peshitta(Syriac), Aramaic Targums, etc. So if you want to study the Hebrew itself, you are essentially limited to the Masoretic Text, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Over my years of study, I have found the OT to be rich in symbolism and meaning. Unfortunately, I have come to believe the Church is almost "paranoid" about exploring interpretation of the OT - in other words if some GA has said something about a particular scripture, that becomes "scripture." This severely limits exploration of other interpretations. For instance BY taught that the garden of Eden was in the Americas. I simply do not share that belief, and I will not be open to share my own belief or interpretation. 

When seeking to understand the OT, you should realize that the Hebrews had essentially four rules of interpretation they might look to in trying to understand the OT. First is the "literal" or face value interpretation. Then come nuances in interpretation and finally, they look for hidden meaning.

You can pick up free study Bibles. Some are available for the free esword program. Here is one http://www.biblesupport.com/e-sword-downloads/file/6569-newberry-thomas-reference-bible-study-bible/   That site also has a Hebrew Study Bible with transliteration and Strong's numbers.

[MormonMason]

How about learning to read some Hebrew? Since I did that I have gotten a whole lot more out of reading the Old Testament.  But also look under the surface and try reading it with the lenses of the New Testament and Book of Mormon.  I mean, even with the Book of Mormon, there are all those wars and such.  But there are snippets of value in even those accounts.  If you look only for the negative, that is just about all you will find.

[JarMan]

7 hours ago, MormonMason said:

How about learning to read some Hebrew? Since I did that I have gotten a whole lot more out of reading the Old Testament.  But also look under the surface and try reading it with the lenses of the New Testament and Book of Mormon.  I mean, even with the Book of Mormon, there are all those wars and such.  But there are snippets of value in even those accounts.  If you look only for the negative, that is just about all you will find.

I actually like the war chapters in the Book of Mormon. But this is partly because the Nephites fought ethical wars. They were based on self defense, not on conquering new lands. They were very moderate in how they treated their prisoners. They didn’t take slaves from among their conquered enemies. And they didn’t commit wholesale slaughter of innocents. So when I look at the OT through the lens of the Book of Mormon I wonder why it is that the OT people were so brutal in comparison. They had the same god didn’t they? Why didn’t the Nephite god require the same types of brutal actions he required in the old world?

[RevTestament]

30 minutes ago, JarMan said:

I actually like the war chapters in the Book of Mormon. But this is partly because the Nephites fought ethical wars. They were based on self defense, not on conquering new lands. They were very moderate in how they treated their prisoners. They didn’t take slaves from among their conquered enemies. And they didn’t commit wholesale slaughter of innocents. So when I look at the OT through the lens of the Book of Mormon I wonder why it is that the OT people were so brutal in comparison. They had the same god didn’t they? Why didn’t the Nephite god require the same types of brutal actions he required in the old world?

I don't think the OT was as brutal as it is made out to be. Israel was ordered to destroy the Amalekites because they had unprovokedly attacked Israel at Rephidim. Rather than being some murderous plunderers, the Israelites allowed all the peoples to surrender to them if they would agree to be subject to Israel. All the peoples the Israelites conquered in Canaan were warned, and given a chance to leave or be subject to Israel. Israel only attacked when the prior inhabitants refused both these options. Further, in the end Israel failed to kick out all the inhabitants, and allowed many of them to stay. The Phoenicians and the Philistines stayed. Nor were the Israelites particularly brutal - at least compared to the Assyrians who would impale their enemies. The Lord sent the Nephites to a land which was uncivilized and essentially had nothing but a few wandering inhabitants. Therefore, the Nephites did not have a land to conquer nor a people to do it with.

 

[aussieguy55]

I suppose one could at this   point  out that scholars like Israel Finkelstein (The Bible Unearthed) and Peter Enns (The  Bible Tells me So) that the exodus and conquest are not historical.