aussieguy55 Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 Interesting article on the flood https://www.csicop.org/si/show/twenty-one_reasons_noahs_worldwide_flood_never_happened If no universal flood no need for Garden of Eden to be in America.
RevTestament Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 Agree - there was no global flood. Woop-de-do. I also personally agree that there was no Garden of Eden in America. Edin is a Sumerian word for plain. It was a garden of the plain with a river flowing out of the later area of Assyria. Keep bringin the nonsense. After about 500 of them, maybe you will give up.
Calm Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, aussieguy55 said: Interesting article on the flood https://www.csicop.org/si/show/twenty-one_reasons_noahs_worldwide_flood_never_happened If no universal flood no need for Garden of Eden to be in America. No need, but it could have been. A flood along the Mississippi that pulled the boat out to the Gulf at which point it traveled to the east would work or a flood in the Carolinas (someone's journal reports JS suggested that spot, could have been teasing someone who took him to seriously) might launch it and again travel east.
aussieguy55 Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 I watched Dr Coe being interviewed by John Dehlin. I think he would have knocked the smugness off your face in his assessment of LDS to find a place for the BOM and he is a friend of John Sorenson. Also check out Brother Jake's videos on the BOM parts one and two. As to the Exodus I find more credibility in the work if Dr Finkelstein. Do you have any peer reviewed papers published? Ryan Thomas who has published in this are has a positive view of Finkelstein's work. I would also like the full name of those scholars? you mention earlier. I would like to check what they have written.
changed Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 I think the best way to read the OT is the Torah - in the original Hebrew. If you have any Jewish friends, have them explain it to you.
aussieguy55 Posted April 11, 2018 Posted April 11, 2018 The Bible's Buried Secrets National Geographic Documentary HD on youtube gives interesting contrary interpretation, especially Hazor.
MormonMason Posted April 11, 2018 Posted April 11, 2018 (edited) On 04/10/2018 at 6:12 AM, changed said: I think the best way to read the OT is the Torah - in the original Hebrew. If you have any Jewish friends, have them explain it to you. Actually, portions of the Torah are not the original Hebrew. And if you read it in a Torah Scroll there is no vowel pointing or cantillation. You'll want to use a printed Hebrew text such as BHS. Parts of the original Hebrew have been lost due to changes in the text over the centuries. Here are examples from Deuteronomy 27 and 32. Someone I know marked the ones of Deuteronomy 32 with red rectangles to show the places where the texts differ from the current Masoretic Text of the Torah. Here is a fragment containing Deuteronomy 27:4 (this one is from the West Semitic Research program at Azusa Pacific University): You'll notice that the Hebrew text says "in mount Gerizim" there in the middle of the second line. Here is Deuteronomy 32:8: You'll note that the text here reads "sons of God" rather than "sons of Israel" here. Following is Deuteronomy 32:43: In the first line the word is "heavens" rather than "nations", the second line completely is obliterated from Torah texts today, reading "and let all gods worship him", the third line reads "his sons" rather than "his servants", the fifth line has been completely obliterated from Torah texts and reads "and they who hate him he will recompense", and the last line with a minor change in person in the first word of the sentence and "land of" rather than "his land" there. All of the above are Hebrew manuscripts that were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. If you look at a Torah, you will see the substantive differences between these manuscripts and the Torah. If you look at the text of the Septuagint, you'll see more substantive differences from the Hebrew text of today's Torah. For instance, here is the text reconstructed from the Hebrew vorlage of the Septuagint and formatted like printed Hebrew Bibles: הַרְנִ֤֯ינוּ שָׁמַיִם֙ עִמּ֖וֹ וְהִשְׁתַּחֲווּ־ל֝וֹ כָּל־אֱלֹהִ֔ים הַרְנִ֤֯ינוּ גוֹיִם֙ עִם־עַמּ֖וֹ וְהֵעִיזוּ־ל֝וֹ כָּל־בְּנֵ֣י אֱלֹהִ֑ים כִּ֥י דַם־בָּנָ֖יו יִקּ֖֯וֹם וְיָק֤וּם וְנָקָם֙ יָשִׁ֣֯יב לְצָרָ֔יו וְלִמְשַׂנְאָ֥יו יְשַׁלֵּ֖ם וַיְכַפֵּ֥ר יְהוָ֖ה אַדְמַ֥ת עַמּֽוֹ׃ פ I'll say here that this is the most complete reconstruction I've yet seen in all I've read over the years. He translates the above on the same page: "Rejoice, O ye heavens, with him, and let all ye gods worship him! Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people, and let all ye sons of God take refuge in him! For he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will arise, and will render vengeance to his adversaries; and them which hate him will he recompense, and the LORD will cleanse his people’s land." I took this reconstruction from page vi of D. Charles Pyle's book, titled I Have Said Ye Are Gods: Concepts Conducive to the Early Christian Doctrine of Deification in Patristic Literature and the Underlying Strata of the Greek New Testament Text (Revised and Supplemented). That is quite a bit different from what we see in most of today's Bibles. I can see this text underlying the Septuagint (minus the vowels and cantillation), though the Septuagint reads a little differently from his translation in a few places. However that is, we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking that the Torah hasn't been changed or is the "original Hebrew." It looks like substantial changes have come to portions of the text over time, no thanks to the scribes who changed up the Bible the way they did. Edited April 11, 2018 by MormonMason 1
changed Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 On 4/11/2018 at 6:49 PM, MormonMason said: Actually, portions of the Torah are not the original Hebrew. ... If anyone happens to be in Denver - http://www.dmns.org/dead-sea-scrolls/ Some interesting stories in there - they were discovered, and prophetic passages of Isaiah were read the same day Israel became a nation again.
MormonMason Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 5 hours ago, changed said: If anyone happens to be in Denver - http://www.dmns.org/dead-sea-scrolls/ Some interesting stories in there - they were discovered, and prophetic passages of Isaiah were read the same day Israel became a nation again. Looks like the same exhibit I went to in Salt Lake City a couple years ago. A friend invited me to come down to see it while it was there. For the record, the Isaiah scrolls were closer to the Masoretic Text of today but still not identical.
SJR3t2 Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 These videos are not extensive but are nice quick summaries. https://www.youtube.com/user/jointhebibleproject
MormonMason Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, SJR3t2 said: These videos are not extensive but are nice quick summaries. https://www.youtube.com/user/jointhebibleproject I just watched a few of the videos. I stopped halfway through the "Errors in the Bible?" video when the person in the video started telling fibs. Some of the changes are much more substantial than they claim. You should take a look at Swanson's New Testament Greek Manuscripts series. Pay close attention to what Swanson states in the volumes on 1 and 2 Corinthians. After a lot of study he gave up on trying to recover the original New Testament. He died believing full recovery of the originals an impossible task after all his work with the manuscripts. One of the books cited (but not named) by the guy in the last video I watched (the one by Metzger and Ehrman) also states that we may not be able to recover the original books of Corinthians at all because of special problems in those books. Like I said, I don't appreciate people telling fibs. These videos hide misleading stuff in the videos and can mislead people because of it. Pretty slick of them if you ask me. Edited April 28, 2018 by MormonMason 1
SJR3t2 Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 3 hours ago, MormonMason said: I just watched a few of the videos. I stopped halfway through the "Errors in the Bible?" video when the person in the video started telling fibs. Some of the changes are much more substantial than they claim. You should take a look at Swanson's New Testament Greek Manuscripts series. Pay close attention to what Swanson states in the volumes on 1 and 2 Corinthians. After a lot of study he gave up on trying to recover the original New Testament. He died believing full recovery of the originals an impossible task after all his work with the manuscripts. One of the books cited (but not named) by the guy in the last video I watched (the one by Metzger and Ehrman) also states that we may not be able to recover the original books of Corinthians at all because of special problems in those books. Like I said, I don't appreciate people telling fibs. These videos hide misleading stuff in the videos and can mislead people because of it. Pretty slick of them if you ask me. I have not watched all of them, I've only watched a few of them, but I would not be surprised if they don't have everything right, in my experience no one does. I agree it's bad when people start misleading others and giving false information, I hope most are doing it on accident and not on purpose. I shared the videos because the few I watched I did like, I have not watched any from the NT, lately I've been focusing on the BoM and OT.
MormonMason Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 6 hours ago, SJR3t2 said: I have not watched all of them, I've only watched a few of them, but I would not be surprised if they don't have everything right, in my experience no one does. I agree it's bad when people start misleading others and giving false information, I hope most are doing it on accident and not on purpose. I shared the videos because the few I watched I did like, I have not watched any from the NT, lately I've been focusing on the BoM and OT. When the guy cited the book by Metzger and Ehrman to set up a contradiction between two works of Ehrman "published the same year" it seemed to me some of it could only be described as deliberate. That is when I stopped watching further. I can only stomach so much deliberate BS for so long. It is probable that many of the videos are tainted with it.
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