Science sometimes contradicts the Gospel

[SamuelTheLamanite]

I believe Evolution, overpopulation, and other scientific theories do contradict the gospel of Jesus Christ. I agree with my friend JLHPROF when he said, "But I consider the term overpopulation, as in too many people on earth, to be contrary to gospel doctrine"

Scientists believe the world is dangerously overpopulated. "There's a strong correlation between the risk of pandemic and human population density. We've done the math and we've proved it," said Peter Daszak, a disease ecologist.  Scientists think they proved overpopulation can be very dangerous,, but our inspired leaders teach the planet is not dangerously overpopulated. 

As an apostle our prophet Elder Nelson taught, "Arguments swirl around that the earth is dangerously overpopulated and that couples should restrict the number of their children. … I adjure you to believe the Lord, who said that ‘the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare’ [D&C 104:17].”"   

In General Conference president Nelson (apostle then) taught "Many in developing nations unknowingly ascribe their lack of prosperity to overpopulation. While they grovel in ignorance of God and his commandments, they may worship objects of their own creation (or nothing at all), while unsuccessfully attempting to limit their population by the rampant practice of abortion. They live in squalor, oblivious to the divine teaching—stated in the scriptures not once, but thirty-four times—that people will prosper in the land only if they obey the commandments of God"   

Church manuals teach "The commandment to multiply and replenish the earth is a vital part of Heavenly Father's eternal plan and remains in force today"

So yes, it is clear science can contradict religion. God wouldn't tell us to "multiply and replenish" the Earth had it been dangerous. There can't be direct consequences for obeying the commandments of God. I  believe the larger the population gets the more blessed we will be.

Here is the Deseret News editorial debunking overpopulation alarmism.   "Overpopulation isn't the world's concern — the problem is too few births" https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865604167/Overpopulation-isnt-the-worlds-concern-2-the-problem-is-too-few-births.html

and church article proves "the problems of overpopulation may be exaggerated"  https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/05/realities-of-the-population-explosion?lang=eng

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[hope_for_things]

Some of those statements you're quoting are quite old.  There are legitimate concerns about population growth.  I recommend reading through this wiki link for a lot of relevant and current information about the topic.  Things like impact on the environment, food, water, sanitation, etc.  They talk about carrying capacity for the earth and there being an estimated range in the 4B - 16B area.  But I would also point out that as technology improves humanity has made significant advances on efficiency with respect to all these areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_overpopulation

I don't see any direct conflict with "the gospel" on this subject.  I'm not aware of any gospel principles that talk about total population needing to reach a certain amount in order to fulfill some important gospel ideal.  There is no incompatibility here.  If anything, the genesis account of creation which talks about multiplying and replenishing also admonishes mankind to take care of the earth and be good stewards of the earth.   

I think those that raise this argument do so out of a desire to position the evil scientists as being against God again.  Just more tribalism and fear mongering if you ask me.  

[ksfisher]

Just now, hope_for_things said:

 If anything, the genesis account of creation which talks about multiplying and replenishing also admonishes mankind to take care of the earth and be good stewards of the earth.   

 

One up for this point.

[rodheadlee]

I think the Earth has already been replenished. And we spent all our money on space travel instead of weapons of war we would already have other to spread out onto

[CA Steve]

How come we never hear religion contradicting the theory of gravity? We are finding new things out about gravity all the time so I look forward to when the theory of gravity is overturned by some future scientific discovery and I'll be able to fly.

 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I think the Earth has already been replenished. And we spent all our money on space travel instead of weapons of war we would already have other to spread out onto

Are you talking Mars, or far more distant places?

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/9/2018 at 3:06 PM, CA Steve said:

How come we never hear religion contradicting the theory of gravity? We are finding new things out about gravity all the time so I look forward to when the theory of gravity is overturned by some future scientific discovery and I'll be able to fly.

Man can already fly without contradicting gravity, and all the techniques used actually cooperate with gravity -- in the same way that Elon Musk's new rocket reached escape velocity to throw off "the surly bonds of Earth."

Edited February 12, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[SamuelTheLamanite]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

  There is no incompatibility here. 

Scientists say, "There's a strong correlation between the risk of pandemic and human population density. We've done the math and we've proved it," But the scriptures tell us to multiply. Church leaders assure us that Earth is not dangerously overpopulated. Is overpopulation dangerous yes or no? The incompatibility  is clear. 

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

  There are legitimate concerns about population growth.  I recommend reading through this wiki link for a lot of relevant and current information about the topic. 

The scriptures never tell us to stop multiplying at a certain point. Hope, I don't believe God would tell us to do something that is dangerous. There is no such thing as a dangerous overpopulation because God told us to multiply. So no, let's not worry.

I am more worried about real dangers likes the secular attacks on religious freedom. I am very worried about the destructive force of pornography. In General Conference our leaders tell us about the things that we need to worry about.

Edited February 10, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[hope_for_things]

39 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Scientists say, "There's a strong correlation between the risk of pandemic and human population density. We've done the math and we've proved it," But the scriptures tell us to multiply. Church leaders assure us that Earth is not dangerously overpopulated. Is overpopulation dangerous yes or no? The incompatibility  is clear. 

The scriptures never tell us to stop multiplying at a certain point. Hope, I don't believe God would tell us to do something that is dangerous. There is no such thing as a dangerous overpopulation because God told us to multiply. So no, let's not worry.

I am more worried about real dangers likes the secular attacks on religious freedom. I am very worried about the destructive force of pornography. In General Conference our leaders tell us about the things that we need to worry about.

God’s not responsible for anyone’s worries or misunderstanding or misinterpretation of scripture.  

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I think the Earth has already been replenished. And we spent all our money on space travel instead of weapons of war we would already have other to spread out onto

Agreed.  There are about a thousand things better to spend money on than weapons of war.  

[Robert F. Smith]

43 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

....................................... So no, let's not worry.

I am more worried about real dangers likes the secular attacks on religious freedom. I am very worried about the destructive force of pornography. In General Conference our leaders tell us about the things that we need to worry about.

What about underpopulation, Sam?  What about low birthrates in some countries?  Japan, for example, is rapidly losing population.  The older generation is dying, and young people are not having babies.  At the same time, Japan doesn't want immigrants.  In fact the average birth rate in the USA is too low, and the only way we grow here is by immigration.  Same applies to Western Europe.

So, Sam, are you prepared to welcome some immigrants into your home?  Some places are overcrowded, and the people have nothing to eat or drink, and they die from horrible epidemics.  If you would care for them by volunteering your home (along with many others), that would help alleviate the problem.  Or are you going to wait to hear from our leaders at Conference before you exhibit Christian charity?

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I believe Evolution, overpopulation, and other scientific theories do contradict the gospel of Jesus Christ. I agree with my friend JLHPROF when he said, "But I consider the term overpopulation, as in too many people on earth, to be contrary to gospel doctrine"

Please be careful how you lump me in with your brand of crazy.  I have my own brand of crazy.

True, I don't consider overpopulation a concern, but our ineffective allocation of resources is, and may one day force the saints into living consecration and United Order just to survive.

I also don't consider global warming a concern.  Not because it isn't happening but because I believe it's related to the winding up scene.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

37 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

God’s not responsible for anyone’s worries or misunderstanding or misinterpretation of scripture.  

I believe God was inspiring president Nelson as an apostle when he basically said overpopulation isn't a threat. Why wouldn't our God be responsible for our interpretation of scripture? If we are misunderstanding the scriptures  we have prophets and the spirit to correct us.  We are no longer in the great apostasy.

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Please be careful how you lump me in with your brand of crazy.  I have my own brand of crazy.

True, I don't consider overpopulation a concern

Thank You JLHPROF. According to Hope I am misunderstanding the scriptures.

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I believe God was inspiring president Nelson as an apostle when he basically said overpopulation isn't a threat.

Depends on how you define threat.

Having more people than resources is definitely a threat.  The falsehood is that the world (as usual) has things backwards.

The solution isn't population control and reduction.  It's changing how we consume resources like food and water

But there is still a threat.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

46 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What about underpopulation, Sam?

Robert, the world's population will reach 9.6 billion people by 2050, but we have nothing to worry about.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The solution isn't population control and reduction.  It's changing how we consume resources like food and water

Can you please clarify. How do countries with high poverty levels change how they consume resources?  

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Can you please clarify. How do countries with high poverty levels change how they consume resources?  

There is no one right solution.  But God provided all we need on this earth.  If people don't have reasonable access there is a problem in how we are situated and operating.

We also have moved away from family based communities to a more self centered lifestyle that requires more resources.

[RevTestament]

19 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Robert, the world's population will reach 9.6 billion people by 2050, but we have nothing to worry about.

You're right of course.

Isaiah 24:6

6 Therefore hath the ^acurse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the ^binhabitants of the earth are ^cburned, and ^dfew men left.

[Robert F. Smith]

34 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Robert, the world's population will reach 9.6 billion people by 2050, but we have nothing to worry about.

So this means that you are going to accept my invitation to have immigrants come to your place, because we need to keep up with the rest of the world.  Good on you, Sam!!

[Robert F. Smith]

Sam, I'm not sure that your OP title is correct.  You say that "Science sometimes contradicts the Gospel."  I don't believe that real science ever contradicts the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I don't see how it could.  Would you please show me even one instance in which science conflicts with the Gospel?

[Telescope]

6 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I believe Evolution, overpopulation, and other scientific theories do contradict the gospel of Jesus Christ. I agree with my friend JLHPROF when he said, "But I consider the term overpopulation, as in too many people on earth, to be contrary to gospel doctrine"

Scientists believe the world is dangerously overpopulated. "There's a strong correlation between the risk of pandemic and human population density. We've done the math and we've proved it," said Peter Daszak, a disease ecologist.  Scientists think they proved overpopulation can be very dangerous,, but our inspired leaders teach the planet is not dangerously overpopulated. 

"Scientists believe..." is the prelude to anything, included utter bull, that someone with a point to prove trots out to back up whatever it is they want taken seriously.

"Scientists believe in God."  "Scientists don't believe in God." Both assertions are true.  They are equally invalid and examples of appeals to authority.

Also, opinions are like noses: everybody has one.

In my opinion, the planet isn't dangerously overpopulated. What the world is, is dangerously disorganized.  Starvation, except in certain limited circumstances, occurs because of greed as a result of governments or dictators who insist upon controlling people for the benefit of the rulers alone, or primarily.  

As for evolution, heck with that, lets get into the origin of the Universe, i.e. the Big Bang and the following 13 billion years.  In Genesis God gives us a very superficial overview of our creation, and the story lacks any kind of detail that we can test scientifically.  Neither the Big Bang nor evolution contradict Genesis.  Only if you insist upon a particular interpretation of Genesis, which is an interpretation that is not supported by the words in Genesis -- because there is no detail.  It boils down to God created the Earth, he organized it in a particular order (an order which doesn't substantially contradict the scientific record), but doesn't say HOW he did it.  Or how long it took.  And no, it wasn't any 6 days, nor 6,000 years.  It is sufficient to say that God created the Universe.  Science can't disprove this.  Although science can disprove that the Earth was created in 6 24-hour periods, or 6,000 years.  As to literally how God created the human race, Genesis doesn't say this either.  God created our mortal bodies, and that's all you need to know.  And you don't need to believe that God created us by hand-waving magical incantations.  Which Genesis doesn't attest to, anyway.  I don't care if I descended from a ape (or if the ape and I descended from a common ancestor).  However it happened, God was behind it.

 

 

[JLHPROF]

22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sam, I'm not sure that your OP title is correct.  You say that "Science sometimes contradicts the Gospel."  I don't believe that real science ever contradicts the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I don't see how it could.  Would you please show me even one instance in which science conflicts with the Gospel?

Very true.  Real science and real gospel truths will always be in harmony.  Problem of course is that we only understand both in part.

[rpn]

Samuel, you have it backwards.   The Gospel of Jesus Christ incorporates all truth: science and secular, and religious.    The challenge of today is that we don't actually know what science is full truth  (in my lifetime, many once "scientifically proven" ideas have changed, sometimes even 180 degrees), and we don't even know all things about faith.    Ultimately, though we know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ does fully incorporate all truth in all realms.

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Agreed.  There are about a thousand things better to spend money on than weapons of war.  

Unless North Korea gets busy.  But the good news is that if mankind is wiped out, we won't have to spend money on defense anymore and can worry about global warming and curing cancer!

Oh wait.

There won't be any people left.

Oh well. 

 

[mfbukowski]

Science only contradicts the gospel here, where one is likely to find the philosophies of men mangled by scripture.