Attracting Millenials--these two churches are succeeding

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

I'm sure there are exceptions but I think for most people it does come down to community, not doctrine. People stay in the church when they have strong community ties. They leave the church when life events happen live divorce or their social group (close friends) starts disaffiliating.

Unfortunately I think for many people you are correct. I'm not sure that's the core of the church though.

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Then, take the individual who doesn't find much value in the community/social aspect, but is there solely because of the beliefs and doctrines. When those doctrines are challenged, when the truth claims seem less true, when the messy history and fallibility of prophets becomes a major concern, they fall away because they don't have the anchor of the social connections. Without the social it becomes very easy to walk away when a testimony is challenged.

I think that right, although again I think it important to emphasize that it's not just social connections. Individuals can always turn to God. You certainly find lots of examples of that. 

14 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I have not seen unmarried young people being treated as teenagers, or unfit to serve, or lacking wisdom and maturity. It is my experience that they are treated according to their ability. Now of course some callings require someone to be married, but ,any others did not. But remember is not only young people who may not be married, but also older widows and widowers as well. 

It really varies place to place. Some wards are better than others. I do think since the Church started focusing on this that wards have done better though.

17 hours ago, bluebell said:

I know lots of people who do not at all feel connected to the community but who stick around because they 'know' it's the gospel of Jesus Christ (LDS mommy groups are full of women who do not enjoy church, absolutely hate RS, but go every week because they have a testimony).   Like the disciples of old they ask "to whom should we go?" and believe that there is no other option.

Yup. Honestly I don't have much of a connection to my ward. I like them but don't socialize with anyone from the ward. From people I talk with this is actually pretty common.

18 hours ago, pogi said:

I am not opposed to improved and more dynamic lessons, I am not opposed to more variety in music, I am not opposed to scriptures with more plain English.  I wish many of these things would change in the church.

However, I am realistic and recognize that we will never be able to compete with professionally trained paid ministers and musicians.  Our teachers are volunteers with other demanding responsibilities, careers, and families to take care of, they don't have the time, or the monetary motivation quite honestly, to prepare exceptional lessons like a paid ministry does.

I don't think I'm arguing against that. I don't think we should have a professional clergy. Indeed that would be more the passive reception view that I oppose. I want people involved. More what I'm saying is that requires allowing a bit more diversity into how we conduct our meetings. What works great in white educated suburbs of America might not translate as well to other locales.

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

I'm not really talking about the goal - more about the reality behind why people affiliate or disaffiliate with churches. Doctrine changes. Every church has its own unique doctrines, but social dynamics seem pretty universal.

3 hours ago, Gray said:

I'm thinking of these two items:

"In general, it seems that the two strongest factors of predicting doubt in contemporary Mormonism are church attendance and social networks.  Those who attend regularly and have more Mormons in their social networks are more likely to be Believers, while those who attend less regularly and have more no-Mormons in their family and friendship circles are more likely to be Doubters.  Those who are married and have advanced degrees are also more likely to be Believers than Doubters." (p.15)

- "It is also notable that the number of family members who have left the Church does not make an independent difference in predicting the likelihood of someone being a Doubter once controlling for the other factors described above.  Friends leaving the Church seems to matter more than family leaving the Church." (p.15).

This is how I look at it - unless we have our eyes on the target, talking about anything else could be a distraction and lead our course away from our ultimate goal.

All this data shows is that greater social networks are associated with greater activity.  I think that is a given - the more you attend church, the more friends you are going to gain at church.  The less you attend church, the smaller your social network will be.   As Happy JackWagon states, both doctrinal and social systems "work in tandem".  They strengthen each other, but I think it important that we keep the ultimate goal in mind.  That is evidence by the second paragraph in your quote:  People who attend for social reasons only are like the waves of the sea, tossed to and fro, and go wherever their friends may go.  When your anchor to the church is social, then you will follow your anchor wherever it goes.  But, when your anchor is Jesus Christ and His gospel, then you are less likely to be tossed to and fro.  It is a much more steady anchor and should be the focus and emphasis of the church, without leaving the other undone.   

[pogi]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think the doctrine/ belief system works in tandem with the social aspect. Both are important. In times when a person struggles with one the other can be a strength. But I also agree with Gray, that eventually some people simply get worn out if they are clinging to the church when only one of those things is working for them.

Then, take the individual who doesn't find much value in the community/social aspect, but is there solely because of the beliefs and doctrines. When those doctrines are challenged, when the truth claims seem less true, when the messy history and fallibility of prophets becomes a major concern, they fall away because they don't have the anchor of the social connections. Without the social it becomes very easy to walk away when a testimony is challenged.

I am all on board with what you said in the first paragraph.

In regards to the second paragraph, the point is to strengthen the anchor to Jesus Christ and His gospel in a way that the "messy" stuff seems insignificant when compared with the burning of their testimony and daily communion with God, and with the assurance that God is happy with their path.  That is the strongest anchor that we could ever hope for - one that can endure social changes.  In contrast to the example you gave above, the individual who doesn't find much value in the gospel, but is there solely because of their friends - when those friends start to question and become inactive or leave the church, there is no reason for them at all to stay.  There is no hope at all in that anchor to endure.  There is a much brighter hope in the other anchor.

We are basically comparing the anchors of spiritual self-reliance vs. spiritual co-dependence.   

I agree that social connections can help, but it is only secondary to the anchor of Christ and His gospel.  

Edited December 14, 2017 by pogi

[pogi]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't think I'm arguing against that. I don't think we should have a professional clergy. Indeed that would be more the passive reception view that I oppose. I want people involved. More what I'm saying is that requires allowing a bit more diversity into how we conduct our meetings. What works great in white educated suburbs of America might not translate as well to other locales.

I would like some more diversity too, but I don’t see that as a reason why millennials are leaving (at least not a reason that I see in my social network, nor a reason that the church recognizes in their charts identifying “reasons for leaving”)

Edited December 14, 2017 by pogi

[poptart]

So, I guess I can take from all this religion in the states is about money, comfort and feeling good?  Guess discipline, duty and loyalty aren't trendy anymore.   Sad.

Edited December 14, 2017 by poptart

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, poptart said:

So, I guess I can take from all this religion in the states is about money, comfort and feeling good?

Why would you take that away ? Several on this thread have said that doctrine and testimony are more important than either of those.

[poptart]

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

Why would you take that away ? Several on this thread have said that doctrine and testimony are more important than either of those.

Ops, was hinting more at the millenials, my bad.  Technically I'd be considered one, makes me want to puke.  Would like to toss most of em in a fire alive.  Something a lot of people seem to never mention, evangelical churches fold like crazy, members come and go and often they're in trouble.  Where I live they're trying to nail one for tax fraud, apparently Jesus needs a new mansion every year or so.

[cinepro]

On 12/11/2017 at 7:25 PM, bsjkki said:

Is there anything, as Mormons, we could change that would help reach the younger generation without sacrificing doctrine?

Judging from this thread, it would appear that your answer is "Nope, we're doing great.  Thanks for asking."

Edited December 14, 2017 by cinepro

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Judging from this thread, it would appear that your answer is "Nope, we're doing great.  Thanks for asking."

I am not sure who you are referring to, but I don't see anyone saying that we can't be doing better.  The debate is about which areas should we be focusing on to improve.  The superficial skin or the heart?  Should our emphasis and goal be on strengthening social ties or spiritual ones?  Spiritual self-reliance or spiritual co-dependence?

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I would like some more diversity too, but I don’t see that as a reason why millennials are leaving (at least not a reason that I see in my social network, nor a reason that the church recognizes in their charts identifying “reasons for leaving”)

I don't think there's any one thing that will change how millennials view things. Rather there are many small things we can change that will each have minor effects and likely some things we just won't be able to deal with. (Much as with the secularization in Europe)

[rongo]

5 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't think there's any one thing that will change how millennials view things. Rather there are many small things we can change that will each have minor effects and likely some things we just won't be able to deal with. (Much as with the secularization in Europe)

Secularization in Europe is a good analogy. As with that, there are things we can do with and for millennials, but it is on the individual (case-by-case; boy on the beach with the starfish) level, not big picture. Secularization in Europe has led to reduced conversions and growth, but good, solid people are converted all the time there. Just not in droves. 

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Secularization in Europe is a good analogy. As with that, there are things we can do with and for millennials, but it is on the individual (case-by-case; boy on the beach with the starfish) level, not big picture. Secularization in Europe has led to reduced conversions and growth, but good, solid people are converted all the time there. Just not in droves. 

Right. I'm just not convinced the US or even Canada is going the route of European secularization. However I do think there have been some pretty pronounced social changes we've not adjusted to well. I think the KJV is one example but also our style of worship. Likewise while reducing boring lessons won't solve everything, it may have a marginal effect. But you start fixing a bunch of small things and it can add up to a big thing. I think the Church realizes this thus it's adjusting missionary work. While I've been skeptical of some changes like reducing missionary age it does show they are adjusting. 

[mnn727]

On 12/14/2017 at 8:12 AM, rongo said:

I think that people like that are much less likely to disaffiliate. The issue is that comparatively few converts are of this type; nearly 100% are social converts. I think this directly impacts retention, and this despite overall very good efforts at fellowshipping. That is, I don't think not doing a good job of fellowshipping is the source of our retention struggles. I think it's inherent in the phenomenon of social converts. 

I agree with you that, for most converts and even for many members now, social connection is a much bigger factor and influence than doctrine than testimony. Those for whom doctrine, testimony, and testimony of the history is most important (Davis Bitton just rolled over in his grave) are very likely to stay and stay strong.

SO what you are saying is that our members are very shallow - I don't see that, a few no doubt are, but I see the overwhelming majority are here because they have a testimony. I'd certainly like a different type of worship service except for one thing -- I Know Joseph Smith was a prophet. That kind of ruins your local evangelical Church sermon, no matter how talented the Minister and musicians are..

[rongo]

23 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

SO what you are saying is that our members are very shallow - I don't see that, a few no doubt are, but I see the overwhelming majority are here because they have a testimony. I'd certainly like a different type of worship service except for one thing -- I Know Joseph Smith was a prophet. That kind of ruins your local evangelical Church sermon, no matter how talented the Minister and musicians are..

I agree that boring talks and lessons don't help, and that it would be better if they never happened. But, in a volunteer church where we all give talks and lessons, with varying levels of training and skill, they are part of our development. To the extent that we can improve this, even for lowest common denominators, it's better for everyone. 

[Jeanne]

22 hours ago, pogi said:

I am all on board with what you said in the first paragraph.

In regards to the second paragraph, the point is to strengthen the anchor to Jesus Christ and His gospel in a way that the "messy" stuff seems insignificant when compared with the burning of their testimony and daily communion with God, and with the assurance that God is happy with their path.  That is the strongest anchor that we could ever hope for - one that can endure social changes.  In contrast to the example you gave above, the individual who doesn't find much value in the gospel, but is there solely because of their friends - when those friends start to question and become inactive or leave the church, there is no reason for them at all to stay.  There is no hope at all in that anchor to endure.  There is a much brighter hope in the other anchor.

We are basically comparing the anchors of spiritual self-reliance vs. spiritual co-dependence.   

I agree that social connections can help, but it is only secondary to the anchor of Christ and His gospel.  

But Pogi...the messy stuff is important or should be to anyone there for any reason.  It is what is taught.  I rarely remember a lesson taught just about Jesus and God without the mormon interpretation of it.  Perhaps I am just confused as to what you mean by your aversion to the 2nd paragraph.  It is hard for any member to get outside the box of what Jesus taught without those lessons that instill the leaders...prophets.and revelation.   The testimony is a testimony of the church more often than a testimony of Christ and God alone.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Jeanne

[Gray]

23 hours ago, pogi said:

This is how I look at it - unless we have our eyes on the target, talking about anything else could be a distraction and lead our course away from our ultimate goal.

All this data shows is that greater social networks are associated with greater activity.  I think that is a given - the more you attend church, the more friends you are going to gain at church.  The less you attend church, the smaller your social network will be.   As Happy JackWagon states, both doctrinal and social systems "work in tandem".  They strengthen each other, but I think it important that we keep the ultimate goal in mind.  That is evidence by the second paragraph in your quote:  People who attend for social reasons only are like the waves of the sea, tossed to and fro, and go wherever their friends may go.  When your anchor to the church is social, then you will follow your anchor wherever it goes.  But, when your anchor is Jesus Christ and His gospel, then you are less likely to be tossed to and fro.  It is a much more steady anchor and should be the focus and emphasis of the church, without leaving the other undone.   

Well, you could be right. Who knows? I'm skeptical, though. I'm thinking the social thing is the biggest driver both for people who stay and for people who leave.

[pogi]

54 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

But Pogi...the messy stuff is important or should be to anyone there for any reason.  It is what is taught.  I rarely remember a lesson taught just about Jesus and God without the mormon interpretation of it.  Perhaps I am just confused as to what you mean by your aversion to the 2nd paragraph.  It is hard for any member to get outside the box of what Jesus taught without those lessons that instill the leaders...prophets.and revelation.   The testimony is a testimony of the church more often than a testimony of Christ and God alone.

I am not saying that the messy stuff isn't important.  What I am saying is that when you have a spiritual witness that you are on the path that God wants you on, it becomes easier to have patience with the messy stuff.  I am saying that a testimony anchored in Jesus Christ and a knowledge that you are on the path that he wants you to be on, is far more enduring than a social anchor.  

[bsjkki]

22 hours ago, Gray said:

Well, you could be right. Who knows? I'm skeptical, though. I'm thinking the social thing is the biggest driver both for people who stay and for people who leave.

I would agree with you if that person had not had a spiritual witness. If they had a profound spiritual witness, the social stuff is icing on the cake but not necessary. Many of our youth have not gained their own spiritual witness, so if the social stuff goes downhill, they go with it. Church has been social torture in my current ward for 6 1/2 years...still active, still struggling but my past spiritual experiences anchor me. One of my kids, did not have a strong spiritual anchor yet...it was destroyed as it was forming...she could not withstand the social alienation. I don't blame her but pray, someday, she will seek out the church but God will have to be in charge of that conversion.

Edited December 16, 2017 by bsjkki

[Avatar4321]

Perhaps what we need to do is sanctify ourselves and get the Spirit so we can preach with power from God.

[bsjkki]

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865694056/Op-ed-Listening-is-the-first-step-in-speaking-to-Mormon-millennials.html

The difficult thing is to feel our way back into the question’s full force, to remember what it is like to live without an answer, to remember in our bones why we need an answer. And, more, the difficult thing is to recognize that it is not enough to do this once or for ourselves alone. This must be done again and again, both for ourselves and those we love. It must be done again and again because the question’s specific shape — the specific shape that captures the full force of life’s troubles in that particular historical moment — is a moving target.

In this sense, an important part of our work as individual Latter-day Saints is to make what’s become obvious feel strange again, to make what is too familiar less familiar, and to recover Mormonism not only as an answer but as a question. Doing this will position us to recognize what, in their frustration, millennials are trying to show us about the specific shape that their own very real, very human problems have taken.

 

To help them, I don’t need to show up at their door to tell them what ought to keep them up at night. I need, instead, to listen. I need to let them tell me what keeps them from sleeping. I need to let them tell me what worries and frightens them. And, in response, even if I don’t share that worry, I need to be ready and willing to mourn with them as they mourn.

 

[sunstoned]

On 12/14/2017 at 2:06 PM, cinepro said:

Judging from this thread, it would appear that your answer is "Nope, we're doing great.  Thanks for asking."

It seems this might also be the thinking of the Q15 because they seem to be holding there current course, and listening to their lawyers, and making decisions which does not take into account social media or any of the issues that seems to be important to millennials. 

[kiwi57]

On 12/12/2017 at 4:25 PM, bsjkki said:

Then he traipsed over to the trashcan, sticking his hand into a muck of crushed Doritos and applesauce and shoveling it into his mouth. “Or,” he said, are you going to “be impatient and settle for a meal unworthy of the temple God created?”

This is an interesting article and is worthy of discussion.

That said, I really hope he doesn't have a congregation full of fragile snowflakes. Given the angst that gets kicked up about a few youth leaders talking about licked cupcakes, can you begin to imagine the howls of outrage emanating from someone imagining that they are being compared to crushed Doritos?

 

[rchorse]

Never mind.

Edited December 18, 2017 by rchorse

[rongo]

I think this is an overlooked factor affecting 18-30 year-olds:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-18/divorce-is-making-american-families-66-bigger

The carnage of multiple generations of ubiquitous divorce (including in the Church) is a contributing factor to the struggles of these generations as they have grown up. It is almost a given when looking at contact information for high school students that there will be a variety of last names listed in the household --- often none of which are the students' last names. 

[Josh Khinder]

millennials expect a real worship service like this to build the Church

https://youtu.be/UGUOh7B13OM