Attracting Millenials--these two churches are succeeding

[bsjkki]

I found this article had some interesting points. http://www.kansascity.com/living/religion/article188544194.html Is there anything, as Mormons, we could change that would help reach the younger generation without sacrificing doctrine? What things are traditions and what things are doctrine? I found the article very interesting and I am not advocating modern (could slight updates be that terrible) music but this statement, "a willingness to discuss the taboo" is something I think we can and are trying to improve on. I hope our Relief Society Councils and Elders Quorum Councils bring about some very real discussions. I am happy these two churches are reaching young people and bringing them back to church. On an aside, I know my Elders Quorum asked for topics for council discussion. The answers they got were very hands on, practical advice on family, how to give blessings, how to be a good dad etc... I found that interesting. I think many are seeking very practical ways to be better people. 

"“A lot of times tradition is employed by the church at the expense of turning people away, at the expense of unnecessarily offending people,” AD3 says. “At the expense of souls into the kingdom.” By updating long-considered immovable church mores — dress codes and preaching styles, attitudes toward the secular, a willingness to discuss the taboo — and embracing modern music and technology (AD3 preaches not from a Bible but from his iPad), these churches brim with youthful vivacity."...

"“So often people approach topics putting the focus on sin,” Kyle says. “For people to change their life, they need to see that God is good, not that God is a tyrant. We have to authentically care about people. I’m not worried about your sexuality right now. I’m not worried about what you did Saturday night. I’m worried about what do you know about Jesus and how can I tell you more about him. Not let me tell you why God is upset at you.”

“When we started teaching on love, xxx and relationships and did a sermon series where we spoke on those topics candidly,” Lady J recalls. “That is when we really started blowing up.”

During one particularly memorable sermon, AD3 placed a trashcan on one side of the stage and on the other erected a makeshift restaurant, or as he called it, “the Sextaurant.”

“Are you going to do it God’s way and, yeah, you’ll have to wait a little bit on your food, but you know it’ll come out perfect and just how it was intended for you and you’ll be fulfilled.”

Then he traipsed over to the trashcan, sticking his hand into a muck of crushed Doritos and applesauce and shoveling it into his mouth. “Or,” he said, are you going to “be impatient and settle for a meal unworthy of the temple God created?”

“Clearly enough people are having it, including those in the church” Lady J says, laughing. “Why avoid the issue? Millennials want to address these issues; they’re seeking answers to the tough questions and wanting to have the tough conversations. They are inquisitive and want to know answers to certain questions.”

Edited December 12, 2017 by bsjkki

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I found this article had some interesting points. http://www.kansascity.com/living/religion/article188544194.html Is there anything, as Mormons, we could change that would help reach the younger generation without sacrificing doctrine? What things are traditions and what things are doctrine? I found the article very interesting and I am not advocating modern (could slight updates be that terrible) music but this statement, "a willingness to discuss the taboo" is something I think we can and are trying to improve on. I hope our Relief Society Councils and Elders Quorum Councils bring about some very real discussions. I am happy these two churches are reaching young people and bringing them back to church. On an aside, I know my Elders Quorum asked for topics for council discussion. The answers they got were very hands on, practical advice on family, how to give blessings, how to be a good dad etc... I found that interesting. I think many are seeking very practical ways to be better people. 

"“A lot of times tradition is employed by the church at the expense of turning people away, at the expense of unnecessarily offending people,” AD3 says. “At the expense of souls into the kingdom.” By updating long-considered immovable church mores — dress codes and preaching styles, attitudes toward the secular, a willingness to discuss the taboo — and embracing modern music and technology (AD3 preaches not from a Bible but from his iPad), these churches brim with youthful vivacity."...

"“So often people approach topics putting the focus on sin,” Kyle says. “For people to change their life, they need to see that God is good, not that God is a tyrant. We have to authentically care about people. I’m not worried about your sexuality right now. I’m not worried about what you did Saturday night. I’m worried about what do you know about Jesus and how can I tell you more about him. Not let me tell you why God is upset at you.”

“When we started teaching on love, xxx and relationships and did a sermon series where we spoke on those topics candidly,” Lady J recalls. “That is when we really started blowing up.”

During one particularly memorable sermon, AD3 placed a trashcan on one side of the stage and on the other erected a makeshift restaurant, or as he called it, “the Sextaurant.”

“Are you going to do it God’s way and, yeah, you’ll have to wait a little bit on your food, but you know it’ll come out perfect and just how it was intended for you and you’ll be fulfilled.”

Then he traipsed over to the trashcan, sticking his hand into a muck of crushed Doritos and applesauce and shoveling it into his mouth. “Or,” he said, are you going to “be impatient and settle for a meal unworthy of the temple God created?”

“Clearly enough people are having it, including those in the church” Lady J says, laughing. “Why avoid the issue? Millennials want to address these issues; they’re seeking answers to the tough questions and wanting to have the tough conversations. They are inquisitive and want to know answers to certain questions.”

What I’m wondering is how good they are at holding their millennials after attracting them. I seem to remember reports to the effect that the more lenient, liberal churches were losing members the fastest. 

Furthermore, people tend to grow more conservative and traditional as they grow older. I’ve seen it in my own generation, the sixties, rock-and-roll, free love generation. How appealing will these churches be to aging millennials over the long haul?

[mapman]

One thing I've thought about is that our reputation has suffered along with the decline in acceptance of Evangelicalism and fundamentalists by younger people. We aren't evangelicals or fundamentalists (or at least shouldn't be), but I think certain overly-partisan Christian groups have come to be the epitome of Christianity in a lot of people's minds. People see how churches getting involved in politics has corrupted them and the perception is that Christians are hypocrites that claim to want religious freedom but really mean they want to preserve Christian privileges, that they claim to follow Christ's teachings but fight against people's rights and support morally bankrupt politicians.

Obviously most Christians aren't actually like that, but that is how many Millennials view Christianity, and that I think is how many young Mormons come to view the religion they grew up in. I'm not sure what kind of solution there is for this, but it is a problem that all not-crazy Christians have to figure out: how to not get lumped in with the fundamentalists and partisans in the public's minds.

Edited December 12, 2017 by mapman

[Robert F. Smith]

56 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What I’m wondering is how good they are at holding their millennials after attracting them. I seem to remember reports to the effect that the more lenient, liberal churches were losing members the fastest. 

Furthermore, people tend to grow more conservative and traditional as they grow older. I’ve seen it in my own generation, the sixties, rock-and-roll, free love generation. How appealing will these churches be to aging millennials over the long haul?

The Kansas City Star article reminds me of the time when a young pastor named Chuck Smith began a small congregation of young folks at his Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa California in the late 60s.  He allowed Hippies and Jesus Freaks to attend services barefooted, and they came in droves.  Some were college dropouts.  A lot of them were very smart.  Pastor Smith preached with good humor and seriousness a powerful evangelical message that kept them coming, and induced change in them.  During the 1970s many of them fanned out into various parts of America, some forming the most successful Jesus communal movement ever (centered in Oregon).  He trained a generation of pastors like himself from that cadre of young folks, establishing 1700 branches of his Calvary Chapel all over the country, and began broadcasting some of the best Christian radio available -- like having church and Sunday School 24/7.  Now that Chuck Smith is gone, his Chapelite movement has split into two groups, and it may or may not continue its past success.  Only time will tell.

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, bsjkki said:

"“A lot of times tradition is employed by the church at the expense of turning people away, at the expense of unnecessarily offending people,” AD3 says. “At the expense of souls into the kingdom.” By updating long-considered immovable church mores — dress codes and preaching styles, attitudes toward the secular, a willingness to discuss the taboo — and embracing modern music and technology (AD3 preaches not from a Bible but from his iPad), these churches brim with youthful vivacity."...

"“So often people approach topics putting the focus on sin,” Kyle says. “For people to change their life, they need to see that God is good, not that God is a tyrant. We have to authentically care about people. I’m not worried about your sexuality right now. I’m not worried about what you did Saturday night. I’m worried about what do you know about Jesus and how can I tell you more about him. Not let me tell you why God is upset at you.”

“When we started teaching on love, xxx and relationships and did a sermon series where we spoke on those topics candidly,” Lady J recalls. “That is when we really started blowing up.”

During one particularly memorable sermon, AD3 placed a trashcan on one side of the stage and on the other erected a makeshift restaurant, or as he called it, “the Sextaurant.”

“Are you going to do it God’s way and, yeah, you’ll have to wait a little bit on your food, but you know it’ll come out perfect and just how it was intended for you and you’ll be fulfilled.”

I'm certainly not a millennial but I have a certain amount of resistance to the "cookie-cutter" Mormon mold. I wear red, blue, and accru shirts quite regularly. I can only imagine what young millennials coming to our churches may think about pressures to conform. I have said I believe our acceptable Church hymns could use a little updating - or maybe even a lot. 

While we cannot change the sin of fornication, we may be able to address it differently like that one church did. Rather, than talks which may fill perpetrators with guilt, talks which provide other motivations to change I think could certainly be in order. Judging from all the available statistics, un-wed sex, and single parent families have become the norm in our society, and maybe just pointing out the statistics pertaining to fatherless families would help - but then being there are so many, I'm sure some would feel offended at such an approach. It is a somewhat sticky subject, but if we address it the right way, perhaps we can draw in millennials not finding help elsewhere. Perhaps those who provide professional counseling for troubled relationships have already developed "a feel" for what approaches work best. 

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I'm certainly not a millennial but I have a certain amount of resistance to the "cookie-cutter" Mormon mold. I wear red, blue, and accru shirts quite regularly. I can only imagine what young millennials coming to our churches may think about pressures to conform. I have said I believe our acceptable Church hymns could use a little updating - or maybe even a lot. 

While we cannot change the sin of fornication, we may be able to address it differently like that one church did. Rather, than talks which may fill perpetrators with guilt, talks which provide other motivations to change I think could certainly be in order. Judging from all the available statistics, un-wed sex, and single parent families have become the norm in our society, and maybe just pointing out the statistics pertaining to fatherless families would help - but then being there are so many, I'm sure some would feel offended at such an approach. It is a somewhat sticky subject, but if we address it the right way, perhaps we can draw in millennials not finding help elsewhere. Perhaps those who provide professional counseling for troubled relationships have already developed "a feel" for what approaches work best. 

The Millenials are a different breed.  They've grown up in a society where the family has been devalued. Parents and elders are not respected.   Their media tells them "Anything Goes."  So anything goes with them, causing many of them to injure their character.  The platitude "Idle hands are the devil's workshop" has special significance to them. Their (US) government has stripped away the lessons we received from learning how to work as children. 

A youth can't get a paper route or pick berries in a field for minimum wage or less like we did.  With two parents required to work outside the home, (caused by government social engineering,) it became easier to just buy the Millenials what they want rather than take the time to teach them how to work for it.  No wonder they expect success to be handed to them on a silver platter.  No wonder they feel entitled to free education, free food and housing, high salaries with no experience, plus a strong benefits, retirement and benefits package to sign on.  No wonder there is an avalanche of Millenials who feel entitled to live with their parents (more than any other generation,) playing video games at all hours, and blaming their parents, teachers, employers, society and God for their problems.  Maybe their parents and society can take some credit.

When everything is handed to them including food, shelter, vehicle, TV, why do they need faith in God?  They have plenty of time on their hands to think through the wisdom of socialism and why the rich need to be taxed to provide them with more benefits.  Some of these Millenials are our own beloved children.  And they may be right.  We have contributed to their attitudes and behavior.  Rather than handle them with kid gloves and an attitude that "They are too fragile to work," I believe it is more helpful to cut off the video games and night time entertainment they are addicted to, and give them a short timeline in which to get a job and move out of the house.  If they say "I will be homeless and live under a bridge, or worse!!!", tell them "Well, I guess you've got to do what you've got to do.  We love you, but we are too old for this nonsense.  There is the door!"

That approach gives them the opportunity to step back, reflect on their lives.  When we stop giving and giving them everything, they will need to learn to live on their wits and develop faith in God just to live, the way prior generations have, on their knees.  They need to learn, as every child of God does, that they have a Savior, and it isn't their parents.  It isn't the Nanny State.  It is up to THEM to make something of their lives.  The sooner the better.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Meerkat

[rongo]

There is a big difference between "attracting" target demographics (millennials, or whomever), and retaining them. The problem with missionary work for us isn't just millennials; it's everybody. I've had many conversations with stake presidencies and other bishops about this, and people don't like to hear this, but they have to grudgingly admit that it's true. Whenever converts and retention is brought up, inevitably, the conversation turns to gimmicks. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, necessarily, but the focus is on initiatives, new undertakings, new projects, new activities, etc. These are all gimmicks that don't matter, but they give the illusion of "getting things done" and "doing something new." Once, I was asked to explain what my ward had done to lead the stake in baptisms one year. I explained that we had done the same exact things we had done the year before, when we were at the bottom of the stake in baptisms. The fact is that it goes in cycles, and you go through good times and dry spells regardless of whatever gimmicks you are using at any given time. I also have noted that I have never been in a ward that didn't do a good job of fellowshipping (making people feel wanted, needed, and appreciated). People don't go inactive because they weren't fellowshipped or fellowshipped enough. They go inactive despite our best efforts. It's just the nature of the mix of people right now, and those who agree to be baptized. Very, very few of them have an actual testimony of the Restoration (that scriptures and priesthood keys were restored by real angels); they agree to be baptized for reasons other than a conviction that the Restoration was real. There is a big, big difference between committed conversion (very rare) and getting people to agree to be baptized (most of our convert baptisms). And yet, who can forbid water, that these same should not be baptized? So, we will continue to be around 15% retention past the first two years after baptism, despite our best efforts. 

Now, regarding millennials. I would add to what has already been said above that millennials as a group are even more shallow and superficial in their receptiveness to the message of the Restoration (and critical thinking, reading difficult things, pondering, etc.). Their world revolves around electronic connection to people, and they are very meme-centric (they think and build their lives around memes). This is a bad omen, even worse than before, in terms of potential for commitment and reliability in the Church, and receptiveness to the Restoration and historicity of the scriptures. They don't care, and don't see or understand why they should care. 

Personally, I don't think our focus should be on "attracting" people like this. Our focus should be on attracting and retaining people who think about, care about, and love the Restoration (and these people do exist, and are attracted by an old-fashioned emphasis --- and they are potentially much better-placed to be retained long-term). Some deep millennials and others will be drawn into this net, and those are the ones who will make solid Mormons. Churches and groups who "attract" typical millennials won't hold them or their interest ---- they are too ADHD for that. And more bright lights, short meme-ish sound bites, loud noises, and electronic gimmicks will be required to get and hold their interest, which soon wanes and they search elsewhere for entertainment and stimulation. To try to attract them on their terms is a fool's errand, and won't retain them, anyway. And it won't lead them to the really important thing --- a strong conviction and dedication to the work of the Restoration. 

I am more than fine with seeking and sifting Gideon's Army in these last days. No hard feelings, and wish people well, but I have no desire to shrug sheepishly about elements of the Restoration that people find to be weird, and to focus instead on "community" to attract people who don't think about, appreciate, or want the Restoration. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by rongo

[rongo]

I would add, too, that the blame for adrift millennials who were raised in the Church but have no interest in or connection to the Church in their 20s rests on the home and upbringing. If the ball has been dropped there, then there are no things we can do to "attract" and retain them in their 20s and 30s that will have any lasting effect. The damage has already been done. The time to forge interest, connection, and love for the kingdom of God and the work of the Restoration is when they are young, and as they grow up. 

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I would add, too, that the blame for adrift millennials who were raised in the Church but have no interest in or connection to the Church in their 20s rests on the home and upbringing. If the ball has been dropped there, then there are no things we can do to "attract" and retain them in their 20s and 30s that will have any lasting effect. The damage has already been done. The time to forge interest, connection, and love for the kingdom of God and the work of the Restoration is when they are young, and as they grow up. 

Over the years I've heard many many stories of many people who have left the Church for many reasons, but mostly starting with historic and doctrine issues.  Most were raised in the very uptight, at least as they put it, conservative, stridently Mormon homes, with, of course, some exceptions.  I've noted in the past as well, that most who tend to leave for these reasons were often quite literal believers before things crashed on them.  Maybe the living the letter of the law type families are the ones who are the biggest problems to the Church on this issue.  But, they are just doing as they are told by the leaders.  If this cycle continues we may be in for a really big change in the Church--either people will leave in more droves then mentioned by Jensen in 2011 or the church will have to really learn to adjust in a way, perhaps, it never has tried to do in the past (even with all it's changes).  

This is very interesting, and its quite interesting to watch the younger generations, with the tools and world they're raised in, respond to churches who insist on tradition.  

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

I would add, too, that the blame for adrift millennials who were raised in the Church but have no interest in or connection to the Church in their 20s rests on the home and upbringing. If the ball has been dropped there, then there are no things we can do to "attract" and retain them in their 20s and 30s that will have any lasting effect. The damage has already been done. The time to forge interest, connection, and love for the kingdom of God and the work of the Restoration is when they are young, and as they grow up. 

That is probably true to a significant degree.  However part of the problem has been exacerbated by the desire of many active and committed parents who have felt a commitment to "do it all" to do it all, which is virtually impossible to do.  Hence the repeated warning over the past thirty or so years to "reduce and simplify," and "Good, Better, Best" priorities.  That followed many years of "Lengthen your Stride" that had resulted in Church growth while the world was changing and becoming more demanding. Armed with desire to do what they were asked, many families embraced the pressure, and had to learn from experience how to find balance in their lives over the ensuing decades.  Many bishops and stake presidents saw certain of their apparently compliant children go inactive as adults.

While the world was spinning out of control, piling more pressures upon all families, many in the Church continued to "magnify" their callings with more and more demanding activities until our inspired leaders said "No more ward or stake activities committees."  Ward leaders continued to give multiple callings to family members that were difficult to be borne in their effort to fully staff their organizations, even after Handbook instructions that members should have only one calling if possible. 

Then there were the (successful) efforts of some leaders to shame members into doing more.  Just five or so years ago, we had an Area Seventy give a talk at Stake Conference.  He cited an example of a family with parents who had multiple demanding callings.  Then the wife was called to be Relief President or counselor, or some other such calling.  She, of course, accepted because she was a woman "who knows!"  What did she know?  The implication was that she knew all callings were inspired.  She knew that by accepting another pile of straw on her back, the Lord would watch over her already neglected family.

One stake President counselor tried to share the Gospel with his neighbor at 9pm one night on the way home from a meeting.  "You are great neighbors," the friend said.  "But I could never join your church.  You are too busy."

Then there was the daughter who said "Dad, growing up I felt if I had a flat tire by the side of the road, and someone else had a flat tire, you would help them first."  

I think those are some points that need to be considered when assessing blame for adrift Millenials.  Yes, we are responsible for our own choices and priorites.  Yes, there is a learning curve.  Yes, the scripture says "And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order." Mosiah 4:27.  But until that scripture is discovered and taken to heart, much damage can occur.

One final "Yes," we are all in the Lord's very capable hands.  He knows our place and time.  He knows the desires of our hearts, our love for God and man.  And He has a plan of Redemption, and aeons of time at His disposal to work with the fallen and give them every opportunity to embrace Celestial values, if they will.  I believe that there is a compensation that will come as Elder Holland implied in his talk "Be Ye Therefore Perfect-- Eventually."

Edited December 12, 2017 by Meerkat

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I would add, too, that the blame for adrift millennials who were raised in the Church but have no interest in or connection to the Church in their 20s rests on the home and upbringing. If the ball has been dropped there, then there are no things we can do to "attract" and retain them in their 20s and 30s that will have any lasting effect. The damage has already been done. The time to forge interest, connection, and love for the kingdom of God and the work of the Restoration is when they are young, and as they grow up. 

It's not fair to say that anytime a child has no connection or interest in the church in their 20s, the blame rests on their parents.

Our Father in Heaven, a perfect parent who 'raised' His children perfectly, still lost 1/3 to satan.  Did He somehow drop the ball?  We are kidding ourselves if we think that our parenting choices alone determine our children's activity rate or testimony about the church.

 

[rongo]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's not fair to say that anytime a child has no connection or interest in the church in their 20s, the blame rests on their parents.

Our Father in Heaven, a perfect parent who 'raised' His children perfectly, still lost 1/3 to satan.  Did He somehow drop the ball?  We are kidding ourselves if we think that our parenting choices alone determine our children's activity rate or testimony about the church.

While I didn't use a qualifier, I don't believe that this is always the case. There are definitely good parents whose children make bad choices despite their upbringing.

I do believe that it is usually (or often) the case, though. It doesn't happen in a vacuum, and there are things parents can do in raising their kids to "hedge their bets." Very often, when there are breakdowns in outcomes, there are many pretty obvious things that were or were not done in raising children that --- had they been done or not done --- would likely have had an impact. What we do and don't do with our children matters --- more than we know. 

As Meerkat mentioned, one of these things that might not be "bad" per se is inattentiveness. This can even happen with good intentions (parents with job and Church leadership responsibilities). I look at how many parents are handing their toddlers a tablet constantly as a pacifier or occupier, and these little kids are tapping, swiping, and toggling through things like a pro, and I weep. These kids aren't going to have a chance. 

[mnn727]

What could we do? We could dump the KJV of the Bible or at least come up with our own modern version of it. We could also modernize the language of the BoM. 

I know its so engrained in the (older) LDS psyche its like I'm committing blasphemy to even suggest it. but its becoming less and less understandable to each succeeding generation and I believe a big strike against us in missionary work.

----
What else? Dump all the meetings  (auxiliary meetings, 3rd Sunday teacher development meetings - does anyone anywhere get anything out of them?) -- Ward Council meetings need to be streamlined. Perhaps we could have a 5th Sunday lesson on "Effective meetings and how to get things done via email and texting."

---

3 hours of Church is too long, attention spans are shorter and shorter.  

Edited December 12, 2017 by mnn727

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

What could we do? We could dump the KJV of the Bible or at least come up with our own modern version of it. We could also modernize the language of the BoM. 

I know its so engrained in the (older) LDS psyche its like I'm committing blasphemy to even suggest it. but its becoming less and less understandable to each succeeding generation and I believe a big strike against us in missionary work.

I disagree, and I don't think that lowering the bar to match the encroaching illiteracy of society is a good thing --- for missionary work, or for general intelligence. I think there is a power in the KJV English that is lacking in attempts to bring scripture "up to date." And, I find that investigators who learn to work with and understand KJV English are the ones who are going to "stick" --- and those who won't read any "scripture-ese" at all are not going to. It's actually a good indicator. 

I think Hugh Nibley made a very good point. Here is an excerpt that we included in a stake/community BoM fireside years ago:

Now as to [the] question, ‘Why did Joseph Smith, a nineteenth century American farm boy, translate the Book of Mormon into seventeenth century King James English instead of into contemporary language?’

The first thing to note is that the ‘contemporary language’ of the country-people of New England 130 years ago was not so far from King James English. Even the New England writers of later generations, like Webster, Melville, and Emerson, lapse into its stately periods and "thees and thous" in their loftier passages.

For that matter, we still pray in that language and teach our small children to do the same; that is, we still recognize the validity of a special speech set apart for special occasions. My old Hebrew and Arabic teacher, Professor Popper, would throw a student out of the class who did not use ‘thee’ and ‘thou’ in constructing. ‘This is the word of God!’ he would cry indignantly. ‘This is the Bible! Let us show a little respect; let us have a little formal English here!’

Furthermore, the Book of Mormon is full of scripture, and for the world of Joseph Smith's day, the King James Version was the Scripture, as we have noted; large sections of the Book of Mormon, therefore, had to be in the language of the King James Version—and what of the rest of it? That is scripture, too.

One can think of lots of arguments for using King James English in the Book of Mormon, but the clearest comes out of very recent experience. In the past decade, as you know, certain ancient non-biblical texts, discovered near the Dead Sea, have been translated by modern, up-to-date American readers. I open at random a contemporary Protestant scholar's modern translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and what do I read? ‘For thine is the battle, and by the strength of thy hand their corpses were scattered without burial. Goliath the Hittite, a mighty man of valor, thou didst deliver into the hand of thy servant David.’

Obviously the man who wrote this knew the Bible, and we must not forget that ancient scribes were consciously archaic in their writing, so that most of the scriptures were probably in old-fashioned language the day they were written down. To efface that solemn antique style by the latest up-to-date usage is to translate falsely.

At any rate, Professor Burrows . . . falls naturally and without apology into the language of the King James Bible. Or take a modern Jewish scholar who purposely avoids archaisms in his translation of the Scrolls for modern American readers: ‘All things are inscribed before Thee in a recording script, for every moment of time, for the infinite cycles of years, in their several appointed times. No single thing is hidden, naught missing from Thy presence.’ Professor Gaster, too, falls under the spell of our religious idiom.

By frankly using that idiom, the Book of Mormon avoids the necessity of having to be redone into ‘modern English’ every thirty or forty years. If the plates were being translated for the first time today, it would still be King James English!” (Hugh Nibley, “The Prophetic Book of Mormon,” [Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1990] pp. 214-218).

I think that is a very powerful point. If the Book of Mormon were translated today, it would be the same. None of that, "I, Nephi, had great parents and they taught me good stuff."  

[Gray]

11 minutes ago, rongo said:

I disagree, and I don't think that lowering the bar to match the encroaching illiteracy of society is a good thing --- for missionary work, or for general intelligence. I think there is a power in the KJV English that is lacking in attempts to bring scripture "up to date." And, I find that investigators who learn to work with and understand KJV English are the ones who are going to "stick" --- and those who won't read any "scripture-ese" at all are not going to. It's actually a good indicator. 

I think Hugh Nibley made a very good point. Here is an excerpt that we included in a stake/community BoM fireside years ago:

 

 

I think that is a very powerful point. If the Book of Mormon were translated today, it would be the same. None of that, "I, Nephi, had great parents and they taught me good stuff."  

So God chose a really archaic form of expression that most people have trouble understanding because it takes some effort to revise texts every once in a while?  It certainly wouldn't have to be redone every 30-40 years.

Maybe God should have chosen Old English. That would be REALLY unintelligible and would save so much on textual revisions. Almost no one would be able to spot grammatical errors (the BOM still has plenty that are obvious even to me)

In any case, intelligible scripture isn't going to solve anything. People don't go to church for that kind of thing, generally. Church generally functions as a social network.

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Gray

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, rongo said:

While I didn't use a qualifier, I don't believe that this is always the case. There are definitely good parents whose children make bad choices despite their upbringing.

I do believe that it is usually (or often) the case, though. It doesn't happen in a vacuum, and there are things parents can do in raising their kids to "hedge their bets." Very often, when there are breakdowns in outcomes, there are many pretty obvious things that were or were not done in raising children that --- had they been done or not done --- would likely have had an impact. What we do and don't do with our children matters --- more than we know. 

As Meerkat mentioned, one of these things that might not be "bad" per se is inattentiveness. This can even happen with good intentions (parents with job and Church leadership responsibilities). I look at how many parents are handing their toddlers a tablet constantly as a pacifier or occupier, and these little kids are tapping, swiping, and toggling through things like a pro, and I weep. These kids aren't going to have a chance. 

I get what you are saying, but when i hear this kind of thing, it always comes across like "if people just raised their kids and parented like my wife and I have/did/do, we wouldn't be having these problems in the church."  And full disclosure, i haven't had a child stray and I'm not letting my little kids play with tablets (I don't even have a tablet), but it still makes me cringe when I read thoughts like this.  

I've heard these kinds of words from parents who got to eat them later when one or more of their kids left the church.  I just think we have to be careful expressing these kinds of things that can easily come off as really self-righteous.

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

The Millenials are a different breed.  They've grown up in a society where the family has been devalued. Parents and elders are not respected.   Their media tells them "Anything Goes."  So anything goes with them, causing many of them to injure their character.  The platitude "Idle hands are the devil's workshop" has special significance to them. Their (US) government has stripped away the lessons we received from learning how to work as children. 

A youth can't get a paper route or pick berries in a field for minimum wage or less like we did.  With two parents required to work outside the home, (caused by government social engineering,) it became easier to just buy the Millenials what they want rather than take the time to teach them how to work for it.  No wonder they expect success to be handed to them on a silver platter.  No wonder they feel entitled to free education, free food and housing, high salaries with no experience, plus a strong benefits, retirement and benefits package to sign on.  No wonder there is an avalanche of Millenials who feel entitled to live with their parents (more than any other generation,) playing video games at all hours, and blaming their parents, teachers, employers, society and God for their problems.  Maybe their parents and society can take some credit.

When everything is handed to them including food, shelter, vehicle, TV, why do they need faith in God?  They have plenty of time on their hands to think through the wisdom of socialism and why the rich need to be taxed to provide them with more benefits.  Some of these Millenials are our own beloved children.  And they may be right.  We have contributed to their attitudes and behavior.  Rather than handle them with kid gloves and an attitude that "They are too fragile to work," I believe it is more helpful to cut off the video games and night time entertainment they are addicted to, and give them a short timeline in which to get a job and move out of the house.  If they say "I will be homeless and live under a bridge, or worse!!!", tell them "Well, I guess you've got to do what you've got to do.  We love you, but we are too old for this nonsense.  There is the door!"

That approach gives them the opportunity to step back, reflect on their lives.  When we stop giving and giving them everything, they will need to learn to live on their wits and develop faith in God just to live, the way prior generations have, on their knees.  They need to learn, as every child of God does, that they have a Savior, and it isn't their parents.  It isn't the Nanny State.  It is up to THEM to make something of their lives.  The sooner the better.

Well, while it may be tempting to agree with you at least somewhat, I think it incumbent to realize you are speaking in generalities. I have raised 3 millennials. I have seen their friends grow up and raised them in the milieu that is our modern society. Most I know who did not grow up in the Church are somewhat rudderless and what I would call troubled. They got their girl friends pregnant, and some to their credit, are at least trying to raise these kids. Knowing their society was going to be like this, we had daily scripture reading and somewhat routine family home evenings. When we got to places in the scriptures that talk about this kind of stuff, I made sure to pause and talk about it. I talked about why I decided at a young age not engage in premarital sex, and about the social pressure to be "cool" and "in" - about listening to other boys brag about it while I grew up, etc. I talked about areas I do not feel JS or BY were perfect or where I disagree with their opinions, and the danger I perceive in just following. I talked about a few areas I disagree with the Church, and just aired my point of view. Sometimes the discussion even got a little heated because my wife is def more "Molly" Mormon than I am "Manfred" Mormon...LOL. But I wanted to let them know that I love the restored gospel and why even if don't always agree with everything every church leader has said - that that is possible. I wanted to discuss some of the "difficult" areas of Church history/teachings, and how I deal with them, because I realized these would probably come up in talking with their friends. 

My oldest son kept his nose clean and even went against the grain of some of his friends. However, there were times when he didn't want to go to church - while we invited him, I did not get angry with him or unduly pressure him - and my wife fretted. Usually, the next week he would go. He worked some for me growing up, and had a bit of an independent streak. He aired he wasn't even sure there was a God at one point, and I told him about my various stages of development, and how I became inactive, but why I came back, and encouraged him to just pray to the Lord for guidance, and be patient. Well, about the time he reached HS graduation, he said he was asked to talk about the 1st Vision, and the HS just hit him "like a freight train" and convicted him of its truth. He went on to work a little while and he paid for his own mission. My other two boys are on their missions right now, and have worked at least some to help pay for their missions. I couldn't be more proud of them all. They have also seen what some of their cousins are like who have had everything handed to them.

To be quite truthful I feel very disconnected from the millennial generation at large. I don't feel I really know how to relate to them with some exceptions, so I am not going to pretend that I really know what will work best for them. To a large extent my heart goes out to them because I perceive many of them as being quite rudderless and lost. I agree that many feel entitled, and are looking to the government to solve all their problems. However, I do see glimmers of change and hope as well. I see some backlash against the consequences of the asinine leftist policies and PC speech of micro-aggressions. Some millennials have had enough of it. Those are the ones I believe who will be most open to the restored gospel. I am also encouraged by the efforts of the Church to have a palpable presence at a few colleges around the nation rather than just in Utah and Idaho. With a resurgence to foundational, "conservative" or what I call Liberal roots of at least segments of our society, I perceive a door opening for the Church in the United States. The Church can be there for those searching for what is true in life. I am also encouraged by the Church's increasing willingness to deal with some issues of its past. Although I believe it has essentially been "forced" to do it, it is doing it.

[rongo]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I just think we have to be careful expressing these kinds of things that can easily come off as really self-righteous.

It can come across as self-righteous and judgmental. I fully realize that. And, you are correct that proponents of things often have to "eat their words" later. But the possibility that words might have to be eaten doesn't mean that things that are right shouldn't be propounded, lest people look bad later. I think this fear is all too present in our modern psyche. 

Still, we are rapidly losing the ability to call a spade a spade in society and in the Church. People freak out about it --- and often when it hits a little to close to home. There is no longer room to hear criticism or suggestions and say to ourselves, "Hmmm. I think you're off-base, and I disagree." There's just outrage at people being self-righteous and judgmental. 

I think Isaiah's statement about Israel that "children are their oppressors" is true in our day. I can't tell you how many parents have expressed dismay that their children use their devices inappropriately (porn, sexting, being mean, etc.), and when I ask them why they haven't taken them away (permanently, in some cases), they are stunned with the idea. "We can't!" Why can't you? "Because --- because they have to have a phone!" Why? If you aren't willing or able to be a parent in this important instance, then there are a lot more things wrong in River City, and the prognosis isn't good for the next 20+ years. It's sad. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by rongo

[bsjkki]

22 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

What could we do? We could dump the KJV of the Bible or at least come up with our own modern version of it. We could also modernize the language of the BoM. 

I know its so engrained in the (older) LDS psyche its like I'm committing blasphemy to even suggest it. but its becoming less and less understandable to each succeeding generation and I believe a big strike against us in missionary work.

----
What else? Dump all the meetings  (auxiliary meetings, 3rd Sunday teacher development meetings - does anyone anywhere get anything out of them?) -- Ward Council meetings need to be streamlined. Perhaps we could have a 5th Sunday lesson on "Effective meetings and how to get things done via email and texting."

---

3 hours of Church is too long, attention spans are shorter and shorter.  

I think 3 hours of church is okay. I don't want to lose Sunday School, Relief Society or Primary but I do think our teaching can improve. I like the Teaching the Saviors way manual and think it does help. I would like more "open" discussions where people feel safe to ask real questions and not just regurgitate what everyone knows the teachers and leaders want to hear. I liked this article found on the lds.org home page. https://www.lds.org/liahona/2017/12/elevating-our-family-discussions?lang=eng&_r=1&cid=HP_WE_6-12-2017_dPFD_fLHNA_xLIDyM-2_ We actually want peoples brains to be engaged so we need to let them ask real questions, express real doubts, and feel like classrooms are actually places to learn.  "Cultivate love and respect. Love softens hearts. Expressions of love will help prepare our children for the influence of the Holy Ghost. It will also nurture their desire and willingness to engage in active, spiritual learning. Respecting our children by listening to and validating their perspective and feelings will help them feel safer and more willing to share what they are feeling...Be patient! The Holy Ghost will work with our children as they search their minds and hearts for truth and understanding. We need to resist the temptation to cut their search short by prematurely jumping in with personal opinions and self-conceived solutions.

I have learned to talk less and listen more when I teach. Instead of explaining the meaning of a video, object lesson or scripture...I ask what the class thought about it or what it taught them. Just a few questions can take the whole lesson time as discussion takes off. I am grateful to a friend who taught me to let the kids speak and teach other. This even works in junior primary. It's amazing. 

[mapman]

According to Wikipedia Millennials are usually understood to be people born from the early 1980s to mid 1990s. These are mostly people who already have careers or are in college working towards that, people who have to deal with the screwed up economic and political realities that older generations left for them. They may have less loyalty to corporations, but studies haven't shown any major differences in work ethic, just that Millennials tend to be more idealistic, more concerned with balancing work with the rest of their lives, more willing to get paid less to work in a field they are interested in, and do more volunteer work than previous generations. It's absolutely ridiculous that people can think that Millennials lives revolve around memes and video games.

People are people. Each generation is biologically the same. People grow up in different circumstances, but someone born in 1100 or 1960 or 1990 is going to act basically the same. There have always been lazy people. If you look for them you will find them. New generations tend to be disillusioned with old institutions and way of doing things, and old people complain about it and think the world is ending. There is no new thing under the sun.

Edit to add: If we are going to over-generalize anyways, lets remember that the baby-boomer generation gave us the hippies. Therefore we can conclude that baby boomers are lazy leftists that expect everything to be given to them and don't know how to get real jobs. Their lives probably revolve around watching sitcoms all day and doing drugs with their friends. They are rudderless and don't know what to do with their lives. They are atheists or into self-centered spirituality.

Edited December 12, 2017 by mapman

[Duncan]

Growing up our family never had FHE, scripture study, family prayer except at supper and for that my Mum always prayed and she said a United Church of Canada prayer, same prayer every night for years and years. Crazy thing is is that everybody in my family is active, my sisters' husbands and kids. I mean so far anyways, my son isn't baptized yet but he wants to be so hopefully that'll happen. I don't want to burden anybody but religion, beliefs wasn't ever pushed on us, we all just kind of chose for ourselves. I think though if someone wasn't active I don't know if they would be shunned or thought less of, in our family.

Something I wonder about with converts, some people like to have their ego stroked. People at church pay attention to them, give them a calling and they'll come as long as they on top of the heap so to speak or headed in that direction. I had a mission comp like that, he was either on the way up to AP or he was a lazy....but he had all the trappings of a missionary but getting to do stuff was another matter. Like to him and these others they had their eye on some big whatever calling and the Church was true if they got it or were on their to get but after they got it and didn't go no further or didn't get the AP calling then the church wasn't true anymore and they would go less active, be apathetic, move away to try again elsewhere(I had a Bishop do that, didn't make Stake Pres so they moved), it was all or nothing, they have to be the biggest Mormon or they'd drop out. But they enjoy the ego trip. the antidote, I really liked Elder Oaks comments about this when he said 

"In the world, we refer to the up or down of promotions or reductions. But there is no up or down in Church positions. We just move around. A bishop released by proper authority and called to teach in Primary does not move down. He moves forward as he accepts his release with gratitude and fulfills the duties of a new calling—even one far less visible.

I saw a memorable example of this a few months ago in the Philippines. I visited a ward in the Pasig stake, near Manila. There I met Augusto Lim, whom I had known in earlier years as a stake president, a mission president, a General Authority, and president of the Manila temple. Now I saw him serving humbly and gratefully in his ward bishopric, second counselor to a man much younger and much less experienced. From temple president to second counselor in a ward bishopric is a beautiful example of the gospel culture in action." Oct. 2003 GC

[clarkgoble]

I think how Millennial are different is pretty exaggerated with the elements of exaggeration often being the same thing each generation is accused of. To the degree there are differences it's tied to two main elements. 1. Not as many high paying jobs for less educated people. 2. People tend to be single longer. With the former I think too many focus on college crowds when they make up a smaller group than those from the college crowd realize. Secondly it causes problems where women, who are more educated, don't want to date men who are less educated and vice versa. For the second the reality is that even back in Gen-X days being single past 25 changed everything. Well meaning members who remembered being single in their early 20's had a hard time even understanding what it was like in the late 20's or 30's. That group just kept growing and the things that make Church attractive for married people just doesn't for single people. The main issue is frustrations with sex (or the perception you'll never have it or true companionship legitimately) and then socializing. The latter is particularly hard for married people who usually don't have enough time to do the socializing they want to. When you're single and nearly every evening is free, the issue is finding interesting things to do. Despite trying hard, the Church just hasn't found good solutions for these over the past two decades. It's a hard problem with no easy answers.

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

The latter is particularly hard for married people who usually don't have enough time to do the socializing they want to. When you're single and nearly every evening is free, the issue is finding interesting things to do. Despite trying hard, the Church just hasn't found good solutions for these over the past two decades. It's a hard problem with no easy answers.

Isn't this tacit admission that there is a competency/maturity deficiency, though? Many point out that gripes about millennials are no different from gripes about the rising generation in the past, but there is always this implicit thought that "the Church" or "parents" or "the government" or "society" or whatever need to provide "interesting things to do" or "good jobs" or "instruction and counsel on how to be a married spouse," etc. The number of millennials living at home and treading water (or not) is definitely higher with this generation --- this is a change from the past (and not a good one). There is this implicit thought that it is the responsible older adults' job to fix their problems, and that they are incapable of fixing their own or bettering their lot or improving. 

This is implied in the article referred to in the OP. What does the Church need to do to attract and retain millennials?

[bsjkki]

Sometimes I think we are too rule bound. I shared quite some time ago about a convert in my ward that was forced to go to the ward he resided in. He had the discussions in our ward, was fellowshipped in our ward but right before his baptism he was told he could not be baptized by our ward or attend our ward afterward. It was a very uncomfortable conversation and he did not understand and his feelings were hurt. He did get baptized at a building 15 minutes away, both wards showed up but he quickly fell into inactivity. He recently moved into our ward as a pit stop as he moves to a new state...his new ward refused to help him move. 

I also heard parts of a interview for a prospective BYU student--the doors was open and I was in the waiting room. The interviewer went over the no flip flops at BYU and I and honestly thought it seemed silly. My son refers to himself not as a millennial but as the "why" generation. They do question everything and want to know "why" and if the answer is "because" it really doesn't fly. 

 

[HappyJackWagon]

4 hours ago, rongo said:

There is a big difference between "attracting" target demographics (millennials, or whomever), and retaining them.

Yes- 2 sides of the same coin. In business "churn" is often discussed to describe the phenomena of customers or employees coming in the front door and leaving almost as quickly through the back door. Churn accepts that there will be significant loss of customers so they focus on bringing in more through the front door. If the business retains a certain percentage of people then by increasing the real number of people coming in, the real number that stays will also increase, even if they continue to lose the same % in the churn through the back door.

It doesn't seem to me that the church is doing a particularly good job of attracting or maintaining millennials. They have their base of millennials and they are leaving out the back door, yet there doesn't seem to be much success attracting new millennials. So the church is in the position of seeing their incoming numbers shrink while the outgoing numbers rise. When businesses see this kind of model panic sets in and adjustments are made.