Are religious people more moral than athiests?

[Raymond Ellis]

Atheists are religious people too but their religion is the worship of power. All of us have an attention that divides between the power and precision of any act. Because of that there are only two possible choices for humans: you either worship power or you worship precision. God is extremely precise Hebrews 4:12, and anyone who loves God loves to be precise also, like King David as a teen with his precise sling-shots -- God helping David to be precise with his shots.

Those who worship power don't really believe in God or Satan, and they don't really believe in right or wrong either, only believing that if your strong enough to gain something by power then your action is justified. But this type of idea leads to all kinds of sin. For example the sin of murder to obtain wealth -- if your powerful enough to kill to get gain then you are justified. There are really no morals in the atheist religion.

If we worship precision then we love God and we are more moral than atheists.

[Gray]

8 hours ago, Raymond Ellis said:

Atheists are religious people too but their religion is the worship of power.

Some atheists worship power. I don't know of any personally who do, but I'm sure they exist. So do some religious people. Power worship is rampant among American evangelicals. Some theists worship their scriptures. Others worship their churches or their leaders. Some people (theists and atheists) worship themselves.

[Mansquatch]

"Are religious people more moral than athiests?"

No, but they have far better rationale for being such.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Some atheists worship power. I don't know of any personally who do, but I'm sure they exist. So do some religious people. Power worship is rampant among American evangelicals. Some theists worship their scriptures. Others worship their churches or their leaders. Some people (theists and atheists) worship themselves.

Very true. Brigham Young gave a fascinating sermon once about how some are drawn to the church by the attraction of power instead of a love or desire for righteousness.

[Teancum]

On 10/25/2017 at 10:28 PM, JLHPROF said:

 I usually try to find the closest option on polls instead of a perfect match, but all three of these just aren't close enough.

A belief in God/religion aren't necessary to be moral, but without God there is no true morality.  Just whatever a society thinks is best.

So choices 1 & 3 are both valid in part.

Yet the so called morals from God have not been constant and change frequently and differ depending on the alleged oracle or scriptures from God.  One thing is sure. God's morals and ethics are in constant flux.

Why is that?

Edited March 20, 2018 by Teancum

[Teancum]

On 10/25/2017 at 11:36 PM, mrmarklin said:

Atheism leads to Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro etc etc.

 

morality wasn’t invented from whole cloth. Without God, There would be none. Take a look at civilizations that don’t have the benefit of the Light of Christ. There’s cannibalism, human sacrifice, head hunting, etc.

Get real on this. 

No Atheism does not lead to what you say. And yes without God morals would develop. Interestingly for thousands of years before Jesus humans developed belief systems, myths, morals,etc that served them well. And they are still developing.  My guess is based on your post above, and I do not mean this rudely, you are ignorant and uneducated on how human societies have developed and how an atheist works out moral and ethical issues.

I understand. I used to think the way you do as well.

[SteveO]

35 minutes ago, Teancum said:

No Atheism does not lead to what you say. And yes without God morals would develop. Interestingly for thousands of years before Jesus humans developed belief systems, myths, morals,etc that served them well. And they are still developing.  My guess is based on your post above, and I do not mean this rudely, you are ignorant and uneducated on how human societies have developed and how an atheist works out moral and ethical issues.

I understand. I used to think the way you do as well.

How do you adjudicate between two different moral frameworks that are set before you, each one believing that their goodness is superior to the other’s goodness?

You as an atheist may have a moral framework that you believe leads to prosperity and peace.  How would you respond to someone who thinks the way to prosperity and peace is not having you around?  What reason would you have to back up your claim?

[Teancum]

51 minutes ago, SteveO said:

How do you adjudicate between two different moral frameworks that are set before you, each one believing that their goodness is superior to the other’s goodness?

You as an atheist may have a moral framework that you believe leads to prosperity and peace.  How would you respond to someone who thinks the way to prosperity and peace is not having you around?  What reason would you have to back up your claim?

Not much time to answer now.  Maybe I will come back to this.  But to make it clear, I am not an atheist. I don't even think I am agnostic.  I hope God is real. I don't know. I am just seeking but a skeptic as well.

[Meerkat]

I believe they are on the same quest we all are-- to find God and do His will.  Some of us just take longer than others.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

On 3/20/2018 at 9:40 PM, Teancum said:

Yet the so called morals from God have not been constant and change frequently and differ depending on the alleged oracle or scriptures from God.  One thing is sure. God's morals and ethics are in constant flux.

Why is that?

6 in 9 churchgoers donate a lot of money to  charity. Only 1 in 32 atheists donate to a charity.  Why is that?

On 3/20/2018 at 10:42 PM, SteveO said:

You as an atheist may have a moral framework that you believe leads to prosperity and peace.  How would you respond to someone who thinks the way to prosperity and peace is not having you around?  What reason would you have to back up your claim?

I am very worried about the rise of Atheism.

[Teancum]

On 3/28/2018 at 12:51 AM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

6 in 9 churchgoers donate a lot of money to  charity. Only 1 in 32 atheists donate to a charity.  Why is that?

I am very worried about the rise of Atheism.

CFR re charity stats. And let's take contributions to their church out and then see how it stacks up.

[mfbukowski]

On 10/25/2017 at 7:28 PM, JLHPROF said:

 I usually try to find the closest option on polls instead of a perfect match, but all three of these just aren't close enough.

A belief in God/religion aren't necessary to be moral, but without God there is no true morality.  Just whatever a society thinks is best.

So choices 1 & 3 are both valid in part.

I think we need to see it both ways if we want to communicate with the secular world and yes, even convert them

"What a society thinks best" is often precisely what God commands because it works pragmatically.  Violation of "Thou shalt not commit adultery" for example would lead to a much better society free from all kinds of ills if followed.  Virtually all laws which are just are based on the golden rule.

An early Christian text - the Didache- speaks of the way of death vs the way of life and shows how sins like adultery lead to all kinds of societal problems- broken homes and general lack of peace in the society

Even the notion that "the commandments evolved" because they work and have survival value for a culture which follows them can be seen as the hand of God demonstrating the principles in Alma 32.  True beliefs lead to "sweet fruit" in a culture regardless of whether or not they believe in God

Cultures like Germany during WWll soon perish because the world culture itself sees them as a cancer in society and will not allow them to exist

Neighbors don't like cannibal tribes living next door any more that decent folks don't like gangs living next door.  Germany and Japan were not playing nicely with others during that period.

Obviously God would give us principles which actually work in society to make an ideal society IF FOLLOWED

Of course today no one follows them BECAUSE they think they are old superstitions and yet we are finding that immorality just does not WORK for society.

It bears bad fruit.

"The wages of sin are death" because one is living in a way which leads to death as opposed to LIFE.  Sex drugs and rock n roll all night are simply not a healthy lifestyle.

God's way has survival value!!- that is why it has worked for mankind for millennia 

I fear as a culture we are in the process of learning a very important principle of pragmatism and religion both- that immorality leads to death, as I watch our culture die.

Pleasant idea, huh? 

"The end is near" may be seen as some as a stupid superstition but even some atheists can see it as well because they simply see that what we are doing now is simply not working.

We see the rise of what some may see as "Eco-health nuts" which in itself becomes a kind of religion without God

So yes I think one can have morality without God but not without "religion" in the sense of a larger view of the importance of life and a reason to get up in the morning- a cause bigger than ourselves that we think affects the world and humanity as a whole.  To me that is "religion" in a sense

Religion is what gives people meaning in life.  We all need something to live for and a cause to dedicate our lives to.

For me it is God because I have experienced Him in my life.  All we need is for others to see whatever the Ideal is in their lives to be "of God"

The Ideal Human does not pollute the planet.  If that is the only principle that some can accept, then I can live with them at least thinking about what the Ideal Human would do because I know that the Ideal Human was Christ

If in every moment they thought "what would the Ideal Human do" - I know they are thinking "What would Christ do?" and that is good enough for me. 

If everyone on this planet tried to take into account being the Ideal Human thinking constantly about "What if everyone did what I am doing now?" this could be a paradise.  

I know it's God's way regardless, but if we can sneak them into thinking that way it's ok with me! 

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

CFR re charity stats. And let's take contributions to their church out and then see how it stacks up.

Is contributing to cancer research a religious act if one does not have cancer? 

Who cares about cancer research if you don't have it? 

Is Saving the Whales a religious organization?  What do the true believers get out of it? 

If the justification includes the word "should" it is a moral decision based on God or not. 

Why "should" we do anything?

Does saving a child give you burning in the bosom?  Why is that?

 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Is contributing to cancer research a religious act if one does not have cancer? 

Who cares about cancer research if you don't have it? 

Is Saving the Whales a religious organization?  What do the true believers get out of it? 

If the justification includes the word "should" it is a moral decision based on God or not. 

Why "should" we do anything?

Does saving a child give you burning in the bosom?  Why is that?

 

 

I don't call contributions to church's non charitable. While I give to many organizations my largest single donee is the LDS Church.

I am just curious to see if you take church contributions out of the factor of the religious person how much other charity they support.

 

[mfbukowski]

13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I don't call contributions to church's non charitable. While I give to many organizations my largest single donee is the LDS Church.

I am just curious to see if you take church contributions out of the factor of the religious person how much other charity they support.

 

Personally I think my tithe and contributions covers everything. Lds Charities or whatever is called as an amazing organization

[Jeanne]

In my life..in my various friends of all religions/athiests...agnostics..whatever..they all have morals..their conscience still guides them. Charity isn't necessarily monetary..but the giving of self for NO reward.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Jeanne

[Jeanne]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Personally I think my tithe and contributions covers everything. Lds Charities or whatever is called as an amazing organization

It is amazing in many ways and gives you a sense of giving..but do you expect something from giving to tithes?  What good is that?

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

In my life..in my various friends of all religions/athiests...agnostics..whatever..they all have morals..their conscience still guides them. Charity isn't necessarily monetary..but the giving of self for NO reward.

I believe that for some people, organized religion can give them the structure and social support group that helps them make good choices in their lives.  But for many, organized religion has failed them. It doesn't mean that their moral compass has changed.  It means that they have found other social support groups that they can rely on for love, support and help in times of need.  

In both groups. there are people whose morals fail them.  For one group to feel superior over the other group for having higher morals is just self centered pride and often no real understanding of the group dynamics that they belittle.  And it is certainly not strictly an atheist/religious equation.  Putting people in boxes and labeling them is rarely accurate to what is really going on.

One of the most influential books ever written in America is The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin.  It was used as a text in schools in the United States for over 100 years.  It is from this book that many of the fundamental principles this country believes in.  Pulling yourself up by the bootstraps and living the American Dream comes from the strong influence Benjamin Franklin had.  At one time, he was the wealthiest person in America, yet started life walking into Boston with only two loafs of bread under each arm.  Many of the virtues he taught also became fundamental guides.  Yet Benjamin Franklin never belonged to any organized religion.  

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I believe that for some people, organized religion can give them the structure and social support group that helps them make good choices in their lives.  But for many, organized religion has failed them. It doesn't mean that their moral compass has changed.  It means that they have found other social support groups that they can rely on for love, support and help in times of need.  

In both groups. there are people whose morals fail them.  For one group to feel superior over the other group for having higher morals is just self centered pride and often no real understanding of the group dynamics that they belittle.  And it is certainly not strictly an atheist/religious equation.  Putting people in boxes and labeling them is rarely accurate to what is really going on.

One of the most influential books ever written in America is The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin.  It was used as a text in schools in the United States for over 100 years.  It is from this book that many of the fundamental principles this country believes in.  Pulling yourself up by the bootstraps and living the American Dream comes from the strong influence Benjamin Franklin had.  At one time, he was the wealthiest person in America, yet started life walking into Boston with only two loafs of bread under each arm.  Many of the virtues he taught also became fundamental guides.  Yet Benjamin Franklin never belonged to any organized religion.  

Thank you.  Your post is so inspiring.  Pride condemns us all..religion or not. 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Jeanne said:

It is amazing in many ways and gives you a sense of giving..but do you expect something from giving to tithes?  What good is that?

Seriously?  You don't understand it do you?

I get to be a member of the church, that's what I expect.

[Jeanne]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Seriously?  You don't understand it do you?

I get to be a member of the church, that's what I expect.

Whooped d' do...I don't give anything to planet fitness outside dues...and I get to be a member!!

[Glenn101]

On 4/7/2018 at 4:05 PM, Jeanne said:

It is amazing in many ways and gives you a sense of giving..but do you expect something from giving to tithes?  What good is that?

I pay tithes because the Lord has asked me to do so.

I believe that religious people do good  for the same reasons hat non-religious people do good, because it is their nature. The promise of reward or threat of punishment is really a non-player in that department because the promise of rewards or the threat of punishment are far into an unforeseeable future. The further away in time that a promise of reward, the less effect it has on a person's behavior. The more distant in the future the threat of punishment, the less deterrent effect it has on people. That is human nature.

Glenn

[Meerkat]

On 4/7/2018 at 1:05 PM, Jeanne said:

It is amazing in many ways and gives you a sense of giving..but do you expect something from giving to tithes?  What good is that?

I get the faith to call down the power of Heaven when I need it. I get peace of mind. I get to prove the promise is real.  Tithing is a small price to pay for faith.  It may be hard to understand logically, and it may not seem altruistic.  God made promises to those who obey this law.  Who am I to reject those blessings?  Many of us will affirm there is nothing a person could do to keep us from paying our tithing.   

If someone wants to see a miracle in their life, applying Malachi 3:10-11 is a good place to start.  If they want to see a further miracle, pay a generous fast offering.  Read and apply Isaiah 58:5-12.   Both promises are clearly explained, as are the actions to obtain proof they are real. 

I was a tithe payer before I was a Christian, and experienced the promised blessings.  Tithing was instrumental to my obtaining faith in God.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Meerkat

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Whooped d' do...I don't give anything to planet fitness outside dues...and I get to be a member!!

Well an excellent point !   Why didn't I think of that?

And AARP only costs $16 a year, and then there's Hulu too! 

[Jeanne]

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Well an excellent point !   Why didn't I think of that?

And AARP only costs $16 a year, and then there's Hulu too! 

Oh yeah...another AARP member....tell me, do you get as confused as I do with all their mail???  I don't know how many things I have contributed to outside the $16.00!!