Are religious people more moral than athiests?

[JAHS]

We are told that all people have the light of Christ in them to know the diffference between right and wrong, but is that enough to be the most moral person we can be?
Are athiests incapable of being as moral as a religious person because they don't learn or adhere to a set of values and principles that originate from God?
 

[sunstoned]

God or Religion is not required for morality.  It it silly to think so.  To have any meaningful dialog on this topic, a definition of morality would have to be agreed upon. For example, many people overload the term to include grooming and dress requirements, while others would disagree, claiming that how you think and act determine morality rather than what you wear.  This is just one example.

If you ask me (which no one has) I believe morality, and it's definition (at least on a granular level) is something each of use defines for ourselves.

[JLHPROF]

 I usually try to find the closest option on polls instead of a perfect match, but all three of these just aren't close enough.

A belief in God/religion aren't necessary to be moral, but without God there is no true morality.  Just whatever a society thinks is best.

So choices 1 & 3 are both valid in part.

[strappinglad]

Is there any action or behavior that would be universally considered moral, or immoral without exception or excuse ? Let's step back a bit and require only a 95% agreement.

[The Nehor]

Thankfully due to a recent television show we now have an objective test to determine whether someone is a good person:

Did you ever commit a serious crime? such as murder, sexual harassment, arson or otherwise?
Did you ever have a vanity license plate, like Mama's BMW, Lexus for Liz, or Boob Guy?
Did you ever reheat fish in an office microwave?
Have you ever paid money to see the California funk rock band The Red Hot Chili Peppers?
Were you ever a waiter and when seeing a customer who had eaten all his or her food said sarcastically "Guess you hated it?"
Have you ever said "Hubby" or referred to the department store Target as "Tar-jay"?
Did you every take off your shoes and socks on a commercial airplane?
Did you ever appear on the American television show "The Bachelor" or it's companion shows "The Bachelorette", "Bachelor in Paradise" or comment on them in any capacity or post on any social media site that you were "emotionally vested" in any of the relationships that the contestants were pursuing?

 

Seems like a sound evaluation method to me.

[mrmarklin]

Atheism leads to Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro etc etc.

 

morality wasn’t invented from whole cloth. Without God, There would be none. Take a look at civilizations that don’t have the benefit of the Light of Christ. There’s cannibalism, human sacrifice, head hunting, etc.

Get real on this. 

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Atheism leads to Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro etc etc.

 

morality wasn’t invented from whole cloth. Without God, There would be none. Take a look at civilizations that don’t have the benefit of the Light of Christ. There’s cannibalism, human sacrifice, head hunting, etc.

Get real on this. 

If the Light of Christ is given to every man (and presumably that is the 'mankind' use and women get it too) how do you find these civilizations without its benefit?

[The Nehor]

No, you cannot be moral without God since the Light of Christ is what enlightens people to be good. It is LDS doctrine. However it is a pointless debate to have because we cannot prove it and what most people mean when they say they can be moral without God is that they do not need to believe in or acknowledge God to know on some level the difference between right and wrong which is true.

It also seemingly hinges on the belief that what God is primarily interested in us is seeing moral behavior, a proposition I have come to reject. Morality is a stepping stone in the Gospel and exists to be transcended. Being moral presumably can get you into the higher Telestial kingdoms and maybe even the Terrestrial which is good as far as it goes.

[sunstoned]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Thankfully due to a recent television show we now have an objective test to determine whether someone is a good person:

Did you ever commit a serious crime? such as murder, sexual harassment, arson or otherwise?
Did you ever have a vanity license plate, like Mama's BMW, Lexus for Liz, or Boob Guy?
Did you ever reheat fish in an office microwave?
Have you ever paid money to see the California funk rock band The Red Hot Chili Peppers?
Were you ever a waiter and when seeing a customer who had eaten all his or her food said sarcastically "Guess you hated it?"
Have you ever said "Hubby" or referred to the department store Target as "Tar-jay"?
Did you every take off your shoes and socks on a commercial airplane?
Did you ever appear on the American television show "The Bachelor" or it's companion shows "The Bachelorette", "Bachelor in Paradise" or comment on them in any capacity or post on any social media site that you were "emotionally vested" in any of the relationships that the contestants were pursuing?

 

Seems like a sound evaluation method to me.

guilty on many of the above.  I guess I am among the ranks of the morally bankrupted. 

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

 I usually try to find the closest option on polls instead of a perfect match, but all three of these just aren't close enough.

A belief in God/religion aren't necessary to be moral, but without God there is no true morality.  Just whatever a society thinks is best.

So choices 1 & 3 are both valid in part.

It's always a risk one takes in posting a poll because the question is never quite clear enough for everyone and there is always another choice that could have been added.
I do get what you are saying though.

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Atheism leads to Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro etc etc.

 

morality wasn’t invented from whole cloth. Without God, There would be none. Take a look at civilizations that don’t have the benefit of the Light of Christ. There’s cannibalism, human sacrifice, head hunting, etc.

Get real on this. 

Christianity leads to Charlemagne, the  Crusades, the Inquisition, the Protestant Reformation, the Counter Reformation, Colonialism, the burning of witches at the stake, near eradication the American Indians, slavery, Hitler, Jim Crow laws, Racism, Sexism, and Nationalism, White supremacy, on and on and on.

 

 

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Christianity leads to Charlemagne, the  Crusades, the Inquisition, the Protestant Reformation, the Counter Reformation, Colonialism, the burning of witches at the stake, near eradication the American Indians, slavery, Hitler, Jim Crow laws, Racism, Sexism, and Nationalism, White supremacy, on and on and on.

 

 

 

Yes, but much of that was apostate Christianity which means it can only fairly compared to apostate atheists.

[Glenn101]

8 hours ago, sunstoned said:

God or Religion is not required for morality.  It it silly to think so.  To have any meaningful dialog on this topic, a definition of morality would have to be agreed upon. For example, many people overload the term to include grooming and dress requirements, while others would disagree, claiming that how you think and act determine morality rather than what you wear.  This is just one example.

If you ask me (which no one has) I believe morality, and it's definition (at least on a granular level) is something each of use defines for ourselves.

Gray presented a similar thought in another thread, i.e. that morality is subjective. And without God, that is actually correct. In LDS theology there is an objective morality which God is bound by and observes perfectly in order the be God (among other things). He has imparted as much of that to us through the prophets and the scriptures as we are able to comprehend and understand. And, like it or not, in the mainly Christian countries, the basic ideas that embody morality are mostly descended from that religion. However as people become less religious those ideals about morality have become more fluid and change depending upon the culture and society.

Morality has always, to a large extent, been a societal and cultural thing, whether it be a religious society or a secular one. I do not believe that religious people are more moral than atheists. As thesometimesaint has noted, there have been people that considered themselves good Christians that have done some really atrocious things. Slavery and the treatment of slaves comes quickly to mind as one example. This was a societal thing (which does not make it right) among the landed elite. But that was a huge step away from the morality that had been espoused by the Savior when He taught what has become known as the Golden Rule.

Glenn

[mrmarklin]

8 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Christianity leads to Charlemagne, the  Crusades, the Inquisition, the Protestant Reformation, the Counter Reformation, Colonialism, the burning of witches at the stake, near eradication the American Indians, slavery, Hitler, Jim Crow laws, Racism, Sexism, and Nationalism, White supremacy, on and on and on.

 

 

 

Hitler was an atheist for the record, his political statements notwithstanding  

No philosophy has inflicted more misery than atheistic communism. 

Many of your examples are bogus anyway for various reasons.  Quite a silly reply.

Racism, slavery, Sexism,, colonialism, predate Christianity for sure  so I’m not getting your point.

 

Remember, there is no such a thing as rape or theft, etc. in the animal kingdom.   Since by definition with atheism morality is relative, only religion separates us from the animals.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2017 by mrmarklin
Clarity

[JLHPROF]

I think a shared definition of moral/morality would help this thread.

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Hitler was an atheist for the record, his political statements notwithstanding  

No philosophy has inflicted more misery than atheistic communism. 

Many of your examples are bogus anyway for various reasons.  Quite a silly reply.

 

 

You're trying to smuggle communism into atheism as if all atheists are communists or fascists.

[Gray]

Morality is more about character and less about theology, or lack thereof.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Gray

[JAHS]

My interest in this topic was sparked by a study:
Global evidence of extreme intuitive moral prejudice against atheists

"Anti-atheist prejudice—a growing concern in increasingly secular societies—affects employment, elections, family life and broader social inclusion. Preliminary work in the United States suggests that anti-atheist prejudice stems, in part, from deeply rooted intuitions about religion’s putatively necessary role in morality. However, the cross-cultural prevalence and magnitude—as well as intracultural demographic stability—of such intuitions, as manifested in intuitive associations of immorality with atheists, remain unclear. Here, we quantify moral distrust of atheists by applying well-tested measures in a large global sample (N = 3,256; 13 diverse countries). Consistent with cultural evolutionary theories of religion and morality, people in most—but not all— of these countries viewed extreme moral violations as representative of atheists. Notably, anti-atheist prejudice was even evident among atheist participants around the world. The results contrast with recent polls that do not find self-reported moral prejudice against atheists in highly secular countries, and imply that the recent rise in secularism in Western countries has not overwritten intuitive anti-atheist prejudice. Entrenched moral suspicion of atheists suggests that religion’s powerful influence on moral judgements persists, even among non-believers in secular societies."

[Gray]

10 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Atheism leads to Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro etc etc.

 

Actually, it's fundamentalism and extremist ideologies that lead to humanity's greatest evils. We have similar atrocities in American history. Theism and atheism are benign, so long as they are not taken to extremes.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Gray

[mrmarklin]

10 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Is there any action or behavior that would be universally considered moral, or immoral without exception or excuse ? Let's step back a bit and require only a 95% agreement.

Atheistic communism states that the end justifies the means. Using this as a philosophy any act can be justified. There is by definition no morality at all in Atheism. It’s all relative. 

[mrmarklin]

16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I think a shared definition of moral/morality would help this thread.

Nonsense. It’s all relative!

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Atheistic communism states that the end justifies the means. Using this as a philosophy any act can be justified. There is by definition no morality at all in Atheism. It’s all relative. 

Atheism begins and ends with the notion that there is no God. Theism begins and ends with the notion that there is a God. There are any number of moral systems that theists and atheists can hold.

[mrmarklin]

19 minutes ago, Gray said:

You're trying to smuggle communism into atheism as if all atheists are communists or fascists.

Communism and related philosophy is the end result of atheism. 

Remember, the end justifies the means.  Morality is relative. You have yours and I have mine. What I consider moral, such as theft, you may not. Animals don’t have theft.  They just perceive hunger, and act on their needs.  Is that wrong?  What did Harvey Weinstein do wrong?  Maybe nothing. He had opportunities to sell, and sold them for sex. It’s all relative. No one ever had to give in to it. Except maybe the stupids that, had they any morals, would never have put themselves in a position to be raped.  BTW, there is no rape in the animal kingdom. Aren’t we all just smart animals?

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Communism and related philosophy is the end result of atheism. 

So everyone who stops believing in God will eventually come to the conclusion that the state should own the means of production? Your conclusion doesn't follow.

 

12 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Remember, the end justifies the means.  Morality is relative. You have yours and I have mine. What I consider moral, such as theft, you may not. Animals don’t have theft.  They just perceive hunger, and act on their needs.  Is that wrong?  What did Harvey Weinstein do wrong?  Maybe nothing. He had opportunities to sell, and sold them for sex. It’s all relative. No one ever had to give in to it. Except maybe the stupids that, had they any morals, would never have put themselves in a position to be raped.  BTW, there is no rape in the animal kingdom. Aren’t we all just smart animals?

This has nothing to do with atheism.

[JAHS]

38 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

54 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I think a shared definition of moral/morality would help this thread.

Nonsense. It’s all relative!

To some degree it is relative. Back in the early years of the Church polygamy was considered very immoral by other people of the world, but to the Saints it was a command by God to live it  and was therefore moral to them.  

Websters defines moral as "of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior".  The question is who decides what is right or wrong and can the degree of morality be at different levels when comparing the behavior between religious people and atheists?