Are religious people more moral than athiests?

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, Gray said:

So everyone who stops believing in God will eventually come to the conclusion that the state should own the means of production? Your conclusion doesn't follow.

Especially odd conclusion since in the Book of Mormon the atheists were the ones who ended having all things in common.

[mrmarklin]

32 minutes ago, JAHS said:

To some degree it is relative. Back in the early years of the Church polygamy was considered very immoral by other people of the world, but to the Saints it was a command by God to live it  and was therefore moral to them.  

Websters defines moral as "of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior".  The question is who decides what is right or wrong and can the degree of morality be at different levels when comparing the behavior between religious people and atheists? 

Of course morality is different.  Since this is a Mormon forum I can state that Mormon morality is defined in the scriptures as interpreted by our prophet.

 

What do atheists have?  No foundation,nothing.  By definition everyone has his/her own morality.  This can only lead to chaos.  And we end up with stuff like Pol Pot and Stalin. 

[Five Solas]

Who says atheists aren't religious?  In my city this time of year, we have a *huge* display of religiosity a couple times each month in CenturyLink Field.  Everyone dresses in the same colors, they pass the sacrament (garlic fries most commonly), and you can always count on one or two people being slain in the spirit--and carried out.

And the effect can last well into the next week, with people feeling better about themselves, their city, their lives--or not, depending on whether our local deities graced us with a win.

;0)

--Erik

 PS.  I was never that into it myself (I'd go when I'd occasionally get a free ticket through work or when someone invited me).  But my oldest daughter (age 8 ) *loves* the games, and now I often end up watching them because of her. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Nonsense. It’s all relative!

I didn't say a list of what is moral or immoral.  That is relative (sort of).
I said a definition of what the word moral means.

[mrmarklin]

57 minutes ago, Gray said:

So everyone who stops believing in God will eventually come to the conclusion that the state should own the means of production? Your conclusion doesn't follow.

 

This has nothing to do with atheism.

It has everything to do with atheism.  Since can all have our own definition of morality, anything can be justified. 

 

Im just positing examples. Can you name a successful atheist society?

[mrmarklin]

34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I didn't say a list of what is moral or immoral.  That is relative (sort of).
I said a definition of what the word moral means.

Your definition as an atheist can be anything you want. 

My definition would be that whatever benefits me is moral. Whatever does not would be immoral. YMMV. 

[mrmarklin]

42 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Who says atheists aren't religious?  In my city this time of year, we have a *huge* display of religiosity a couple times each month in CenturyLink Field.  Everyone dresses in the same colors, they pass the sacrament (garlic fries most commonly), and you can always count on one or two people being slain in the spirit--and carried out.

And the effect can last well into the next week, with people feeling better about themselves, their city, their lives--or not, depending on whether our local deities graced us with a win.

;0)

--Erik

 PS.  I was never that into it myself (I'd go when I'd occasionally get a free ticket through work or when someone invited me).  But my oldest daughter (age 8 ) *loves* the games, and now I often end up watching them because of her. 

Marijuana is legal there, right?

 

Real religion!

[Gray]

9 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

It has everything to do with atheism.  Since can all have our own definition of morality, anything can be justified. 

What does that have to do with atheism?

 

There are a number of theists on this board who will tell you that morality is subjective, and yet will argue vigorously for a subjective system of morality. There are plenty of theists who hold to might makes right, too - Christian history is full of that.

 

Quote

 

Im just positing examples. Can you name a successful atheist society?

Sweden, UK, Japan, Netherlands.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Gray

[Gray]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Of course morality is different.  Since this is a Mormon forum I can state that Mormon morality is defined in the scriptures as interpreted by our prophet.

 

What do atheists have?  No foundation,nothing.  By definition everyone has his/her own morality.  This can only lead to chaos.  And we end up with stuff like Pol Pot and Stalin. 

Communism is a pseudo-religion, and the most fundamentalist versions turn violent.

Fundamentalism is the root of all evil.

[JLHPROF]

26 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Your definition as an atheist can be anything you want. 

My definition would be that whatever benefits me is moral. Whatever does not would be immoral. YMMV. 

I don't think you are calling me an atheist?

If the only definition of morality is self-serving then morality is not a goal worth reaching.
Morality is either defined by self, society, or a higher power.

If the first two it is entirely relative and therefore basically meaningless as it can be changed with our moods.
For true morality it requires an absolute.  And that has to be God.
But it doesn't require a belief in that God to follow his moral standards.

[Jeanne]

I haven't had a chance to read everything yet..and not sure my experience will mean a thing....but as a young girl..about 19...I dated my first return missionary.  Nice guy ...clean cut..handsome  and though I was inactive at the time, I was so open to getting involved again in the church and I loved RM's!!  My second date with him and his profound testimony was such a disappointment...he could quote bible scriptures and some B Of M scriptures that made it okay to "pet"...whatever...no scripture was going to change my own moral code right??  It is a personal thing.  There are influences in life that build our own perception of morals...that is what we live by...in the end...religion may influence..but it is not necessary in the whole of your own moral code.  For this RM...as long as you didn't go "all the way"...it was okay with God.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Jeanne

[thesometimesaint]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, but much of that was apostate Christianity which means it can only fairly compared to apostate atheists.

True.

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, JAHS said:

We are told that all people have the light of Christ in them to know the diffference between right and wrong, but is that enough to be the most moral person we can be?
Are athiests incapable of being as moral as a religious person because they don't learn or adhere to a set of values and principles that originate from God?

Most people (atheists and agnostics included) behave according to the culture in which they are raised.  That culture may outwardly appear to be a secular culture, but will be based ultimately on some past religious and ideological notions (which do not even have to be explicitly stated).  Whether this or that person is moral or immoral (or even amoral) is a matter of personal value judgment.  In Islamic religion, for example, we currently witness extreme cruelty and bestiality based on religious claims, which is likewise characteristic of past Christian behavior.  Being religious has apparently meant that mass murder is acceptable and righteous -- depending on the circumstances.

[thesometimesaint]

44 minutes ago, Gray said:

Communism is a pseudo-religion, and the most fundamentalist versions turn violent.

Fundamentalism is the root of all evil.

Communism is not a religion at all. It is a economic system for the control of production. IE; A Jewish "kibbutz" is communistic, but religious.

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Communism is not a religion at all. It is a economic system for the control of production. IE; A Jewish "kibbutz" is communistic, but religious.

In many ways it mirrors many aspects of a religion or a cult. All totalizing political ideologies have characteristics like that.

Of course it depends on which specific Communist system we're talking about. Communism can also be benign.

 

Edited October 26, 2017 by Gray

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

.................................................

What do atheists have?  No foundation,nothing.  By definition everyone has his/her own morality.  This can only lead to chaos.  And we end up with stuff like Pol Pot and Stalin. 

The late Bertrand Russell believed that religion is dangerous and deadly.  In fact religion has been the basis of most of the bloodiest wars in history, including the horrors of the Inquisition.  Russell wrote and spoke extensively on the problem posed by religions, and he included Marxism-Leninism as a full-bodied religion, for which the withering away of the state presaged the automatic harmony of their communist millennium.  Russell rightly feared the well-intentioned beliefs of religious people.

[mrmarklin]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

What does that have to do with atheism?

 

There are a number of theists on this board who will tell you that morality is subjective, and yet will argue vigorously for a subjective system of morality. There are plenty of theists who hold to might makes right, too - Christian history is full of that.

 

Sweden, UK, Japan, Netherlands.

Sweden, UK et al are not atheistic. You must not get out much. Read some history. 

[mrmarklin]

43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't think you are calling me an atheist?

If the only definition of morality is self-serving then morality is not a goal worth reaching.
Morality is either defined by self, society, or a higher power.

If the first two it is entirely relative and therefore basically meaningless as it can be changed with our moods.
For true morality it requires an absolute.  And that has to be God.
But it doesn't require a belief in that God to follow his moral standards.

If you’re not an atheist, I apologize. Look at your as in the Royal You All. 

It may not require a belief in God to follow His standards, true.  But people that don’t believe have nothing to cling to when their morality is challenged. Further, with relativism, they have no defenses. 

[LittleNipper]

I know that morality is not the way to heaven. Christ is!  And I see from the Bible that all who practice morality without salvation produce nothing but filthy rags. Such is not a good thing.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Communism is not a religion at all. It is a economic system for the control of production. IE; A Jewish "kibbutz" is communistic, but religious.

False.  As pointed out by Lord Bertrand Russell, so-called "communism" is a full-scale religion, and it even has a Millennium at the end of its rainbow.

http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/opiate/why.html 

http://rowrrbazzle.blogspot.com/2007/05/bertrand-russell-on-communism-and.html 

In fact there is nothing "communist" in Marxism-Leninism, which is really state capitalism pretending to be a people's democracy.  Milovan Djilas examined that lie in detail in his The New Class (Praeger, 1957).

Likewise, Nazism is a religion, with plenty of rituals and a Thousand Year Reich (Millennium) to look forward to.  The Satanic plan includes everyone, except the subhumans.

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Sweden, UK et al are not atheistic. You must not get out much. Read some history. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/14/map-these-are-the-worlds-least-religious-countries/

You mean they weren't atheistic. Read some news.

The trend for developed nations tends to be towards greater and greater secularism. That's not an indictment of religion, that's just how nations seem to develop.  Perhaps religion will reach the next step in its evolution and allow it to thrive again in these cultures.

 

[Gray]

2 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

I know that morality is not the way to heaven. Christ is!  And I see from the Bible that all who practice morality without salvation produce nothing but filthy rags. Such is not a good thing.

That's not what Jesus taught.

[mrmarklin]

10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The late Bertrand Russell believed that religion is dangerous and deadly.  In fact religion has been the basis of most of the bloodiest wars in history, including the horrors of the Inquisition.  Russell wrote and spoke extensively on the problem posed by religions, and he included Marxism-Leninism as a full-bodied religion, for which the withering away of the state presaged the automatic harmony of their communist millennium.  Russell rightly feared the well-intentioned beliefs of religious people.

I guess if we include atheistic Marxism as a religion he’s correct. But separate atheistic Marxism and what do we have. Yeah, that’s right. 

 

Atheism is is the most destructive, and it’s not even close.

 

His reasoning is patently silly.  Societies that are Godly, despite flaws, are the most successful. 

[mrmarklin]

3 minutes ago, Gray said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/14/map-these-are-the-worlds-least-religious-countries/

You mean they weren't atheistic. Read some news.

The trend for developed nations tends to be towards greater and greater secularism. That's not an indictment of religion, that's just how nations seem to develop.  Perhaps religion will reach the next step in its evolution and allow it to thrive again in these cultures.

 

Least religious is far from atheistic. You realize, for example that the queen of England is not only head of state, but also head of the Church of England. She was crowned in a cathedral by an Archbishop. 

[thesometimesaint]

27 minutes ago, Gray said:

In many ways it mirrors many aspects of a religion or a cult. All totalizing political ideologies have characteristics like that.

Of course it depends on which specific Communist system we're talking about. Communism can also be benign.

Maybe a "Fun House" mirror.