The Plan and the Proclamation

[Bernard Gui]

22 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Too dang many dang weird Mormons in Utah.

And a whole bunch of salt-of-the-earth Saints who are doing their darnedest to follow the Lord. I just attended the funeral of one, and it was evident that his wonderful influence had spread across the globe from his little home in Pleasant Grove.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 10/4/2017 at 1:56 PM, theplains said:

In LDS theology, did the Holy Spirit also become a god without being married?

Alma 37

Quote

11 Now these mysteries are not yet fully made known unto me; therefore I shall forbear.

 

[Calm]

8 hours ago, churchistrue said:

I would never tell an apostle his talk was inappropriate. 

I am not asking you to tell him, but tell us.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, longview said:

After Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, did He not acquire a fully Celestialized glorified body?  He is the "First-fruits" of the Resurrection.

Yet he had wounds....perhaps the process isn't completely finished yet.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, longview said:

It is explicitly taught that Jehovah was the "Firstborn" of the Father in the First Estate.  I.E. the very first of spirit children of Heavenly Father.  Therefore we are literally brothers and sisters to Jehovah as far as spirit beings.   Jehovah was NOT married or "exalted" at the point of becoming the "Firstborn."   God the Father occupies an "office" in the Godhead which is a priesthood function.  Likewise Jehovah has a position in the Godhead but is clearly and unequivocally subordinate to the Father.

You should know by now I don't believe that.

[Bobbieaware]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yet he had wounds....perhaps the process isn't completely finished yet.

From Joseph Fielding Smith:

We must not judge the resurrection of others by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is true that he appeared to his disciples and invited them to examine the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet, and the spear wound in his side, but this was a special manifestationto them.

We should know that the disciples had failed to understand that he was to rise again, and this manifestation was for their benefit. Thomas was absent, and it was with some difficulty that the other disciples could convince him that the Lord had risen. Thomas was not worse than any other one of the apostles. Perhaps they would have done just what he did had they been absent....

When the Savior comes to the Jews in the hour of their distress, as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, 45:51-53, he will show them the wounds in his hands and in his feet....

The Prophet Zechariah has also prophesied of the Savior.s Second Coming and his appearance to the Jews, when they will flee from their enemies and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in twain making a valley in which they shall seek refuge. At that particular time he will appear and they shall say: "What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." [Zech 12:9-14; 13:1-9; 14:1-21.] Then will they mourn, each family apart, because they had rejected their Lord.

It is true that he also showed these wounds to the Nephites when he visited them with the same purpose in view, to convince them of his identity, and give to them a witness of his suffering. [3 Ne 11:10-17.] It can hardly be accepted as a fact that these wounds have remained in his hands, side, and feet all through the centuries from the time of his crucifixion and will remain until his Second Coming. But they will appear to the Jews as a witness against their fathers and their stubbornness in following the teachings of their fathers.... (Doc of Salv 2:290-292.)

Edited October 8, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[longview]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Yet he had wounds....perhaps the process isn't completely finished yet.

I agree with Bobbieaware's post above.  I consider His wounds in His hands, feet and side to be a TOKEN of the ordinance of the "Last and Ultimate Sacrifice" of the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world.  Somewhat similar to an American soldier wearing his Medal of Honor around his neck but vastly more awesome and terrifying.  Of course He had other wounds far more grievous in body and spirit from the "Olive Press" in Gethsemane (the Bitter Cup) but I take it on faith He is fully healed of them (as soon as His resurrection).

[Calm]

Whatever they are, his 'wounds' aren't typical since people could thrust their hands into his side without him falling to the floor writhing in pain.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Calm

[ksfisher]

8 hours ago, longview said:

After Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, did He not acquire a fully Celestialized glorified body?  He is the "First-fruits" of the Resurrection.

“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”  (John 20:17)

[Bobbieaware]

4 hours ago, longview said:

I agree with Bobbieaware's post above.  I consider His wounds in His hands, feet and side to be a TOKEN of the ordinance of the "Last and Ultimate Sacrifice" of the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world.  Somewhat similar to an American soldier wearing his Medal of Honor around his neck but vastly more awesome and terrifying.  Of course He had other wounds far more grievous in body and spirit from the "Olive Press" in Gethsemane (the Bitter Cup) but I take it on faith He is fully healed of them (as soon as His resurrection).

According to Christ's own word, this suffering of the bitter cup of the wrath of God continued after he left the precincts of the garden. 

10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.

11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? (John 1$)

Both Tal,mage and McConkie, the two great  LDS biographers of the life of Christ, agree that in addition to the physical and emotional horrors of crucifixion the Savior experienced while on the cross, he also experienced a recurrence of the spiritual sufferings of Gethsemene. Talmage even believed tthe recurring gethsemanic sufferings Christ endured while on the cross were intensified beyond what he had previously endured, which is what caused him to die and why he cried out in superhuman agony -- "my God, my God, why hast though forsaken me?" 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[churchistrue]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

I am not asking you to tell him, but tell us.

They have authority. So, by definition no doctrinal interpretation they make would be inappropriate. 

My general feeling is that even talking about gay marriage in a church setting brings into small minded and narrow thinking. There are so many big things to think about and talk about in a religious setting that are relevant and important in our lives. Hammering the topic of gay marriage to a 97% heterosexual audience is just a big waste of time...at best.

Using the Proclamation as a weapon against gay marriage detracts from the true power of that document, which is to emphasize the importance of marriage and family to the majority of members. I almost get the feeling after one of these talks, OK, on the topic of marriage and family, am I straight? Check. Did I gay marry? Nope. Yes, I checked off the boxes, I'm good to go.

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, churchistrue said:

They have authority. So, by definition no doctrinal interpretation they make would be inappropriate. 

My general feeling is that even talking about gay marriage in a church setting brings into small minded and narrow thinking. There are so many big things to think about and talk about in a religious setting that are relevant and important in our lives. Hammering the topic of gay marriage to a 97% heterosexual audience is just a big waste of time...at best.

Using the Proclamation as a weapon against gay marriage detracts from the true power of that document, which is to emphasize the importance of marriage and family to the majority of members. I almost get the feeling after one of these talks, OK, on the topic of marriage and family, am I straight? Check. Did I gay marry? Nope. Yes, I checked off the boxes, I'm good to go.

 

And in the church membership, since gay folks probably choose not to be there any more, we are talking probably a 100% heterosexual audience at least among the adults.

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

Whatever they are, his 'wounds' aren't typical since people could thrust their hands into his side without him falling to the floor writhing in pain.

They are clearly tokens.  

There is a lot to be learned here about the temple if we think about it.  There are obvious links and not so obvious links with the veil

All of Hebrews 9 and 10 teach this, but here especially in Hebrews 10:

Quote

 

¹⁸ Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

¹⁹ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

²⁰ By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

²¹ And having an high priest over the house of God;

²² Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

 

[kiwi57]

On 10/8/2017 at 10:35 AM, Calm said:

So was Elder Oaks' talk inappropriate in your view?

Elder Oaks's talk was appropriate, timely, and true in every particular.

I'm not saying that because I imagine that I'm qualified to render a verdict, but because that is my view.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 10/8/2017 at 2:37 PM, Calm said:

Yet he had wounds....perhaps the process isn't completely finished yet.

The wounds were tokens of His crucifixion, an integral part of His role as the Only Begotten Son and Savior of the world.