conference today

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I support this person's interpretation and hope they go to heaven for it.

[Calm]

Stargazer, murder, rape, theft are wrong in our society because we say they are wrong.

Mankind has not always said that.

Many criminal cultures do not say so even now...

Rape is often excused during times of war

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/06/18/gruesome-killing-of-baltimore-teen-part-of-gang-initiation/

Gadiantons found murder quite useful if you believe the Book of Mormon as they saw murder as their culture's way to power

Many countries had rituals of murder:

"For the re-consecration of the Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan in 1487, the Aztecs reported that they killed about 80,400 prisoners over the course of four days."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice

-----

The question is why do we today in many societies see it as fundamentally wrong.  Are we evolving into a more kinder society or did we start finally start listening to God, though not all that well as there are still plenty of people out there who use the opportunity to kill others as a way to gain power, only they get others to do it for them and that forces others to try and stop them...often with the same methods.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

There is virtually no culture that holds murder (meaning illegal killing of a human being) to be appropriate.

Many, many did in the past. In the part of the world that I researched for my PhD, killing, plundering, raping, etc. were just normal features of everyday life. An encounter with literally anyone from outside one's people was presumed to turn violent, and therefore communities lived in protective compounds and only ventured out in the daytime to work in their gardens. Even then, people would have been keeping watch. What changed this? Contact with Christianity. To miss that what we now understand as basic and universal morality is an expression of the Judeo-Christian God is to miss an enormous part of what happened with European expansion.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Many, many did in the past. In the part of the world that I researched for my PhD, killing, plundering, raping, etc. were just normal features of everyday life. An encounter with literally anyone from outside one's people was presumed to turn violent, and therefore communities lived in protective compounds and only ventured out in the daytime to work in their gardens. Even then, people would have been keeping watch. What changed this? Contact with Christianity. To miss that what we now understand as basic and universal morality is an expression of the Judeo-Christian God is to miss an enormous part of what happened with European expansion.

Wasn't talking about the past.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Wasn't talking about the past.  

That's fine, but these values/principles/laws have genealogies. Ignoring where they came from limits understanding.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Then on what basis should we legislate if not morality?

What is fair and just are moral considerations so what do we have left?

Morality plays only a small part in such discussions, simply because moral judgments vary widely.  Far more germane are tradition and practicality.  Since murder has traditionally been considered a major crime, we might nibble around the edges of the definition of that crime and develop some sophisticated rules about it (premeditated, crime of passion, justifiable homicide, negligent manslaughter, etc.) and the sorts of punishments to be applied in particular instances.   Ultimately, however, what we do in such instances is to fall back on the old notion that your rights end where my face begins.  As noted by John Stuart Mill, pragmatism plays a much larger role in public life in America than we usually credit.

[Stargazer]

56 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

That's fine, but these values/principles/laws have genealogies. Ignoring where they came from limits understanding.

Sure, but doesn't limit my point.

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes.  Legislating criminality is not the same a legislating morality.  Forcing people by law to go to the state church on Sunday is an example of legislating morality.  We can always argue that it is good for them, just as we can argue that requiring them (taxing them) to pay tithing to the state church is also a good thing.  These were once laws with penalties for disobedience.  A free society cannot abide such laws.

But it kind of is, isn't it?  What we as a society decide is criminal is largely based on our society's morals.  Infanticide, for example, was not criminal in Rome because it was seen as moral. It is criminal in our society because our society views it as immoral.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

But it kind of is, isn't it?  What we as a society decide is criminal is largely based on our society's morals.  Infanticide, for example, was not criminal in Rome because it was seen as moral. It is criminal in our society because our society views it as immoral.

Forcing people to go to church on sunday is not in the same league as infanticide.  We as a society long ago determined that we would no longer abide Blue Laws, even if they are good for us.  I also believe that no one should drink booze, but I am not silly enough to believe that making it illegal would do any good in preventing it.  In fact we tried that and we created even worse problems.  It can be very destructive to criminalize anything and everything that we don't like.  We need better reasons than personal preference, and we need to be very pragmatic about it.

[stemelbow]

the best messages from conference were, in my estimation:

-Don't be racist, please stop prejudices.

-Seek to help those in need.  Disaster strikes and helping is the best thing we can do. 

I won't comment too much on the rest because I don't think we're supposed to be negative here.

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Forcing people to go to church on sunday is not in the same league as infanticide.  We as a society long ago determined that we would no longer abide Blue Laws, even if they are good for us.  I also believe that no one should drink booze, but I am not silly enough to believe that making it illegal would do any good in preventing it.  In fact we tried that and we created even worse problems.  It can be very destructive to criminalize anything and everything that we don't like.  We need better reasons than personal preference, and we need to be very pragmatic about it.

I agree.  But that doesn't mean that our laws are not based on society's morality.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I agree.  But that doesn't mean that our laws are not based on society's morality.

Actually that isn't true.  Our laws reflect centuries of traditional jurisprudence going back at least to the Danelaw in England.  The other important consideration is pragmatism:  What actually works?  Only then do we consider moral and ethical questions.  Why?  Because morals and ethics are so often a matter of dispute.  We live in a pluralistic society, with many divergent views on what is moral and ethical.  We have found peace only in a policy of live and let live.

[Calm]

But "what works" is defined by what is seen as a desirable outcome, which is generally impacted by one's moral/ethical ideas.

"We have found peace only in a policy of live and let live."

A desire for peace is a moral position in some ways.  There are those who prefer chaos because it brings opportunity for power and property grabs, allows them to avoid responsibility for their acts.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Calm

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually that isn't true.  Our laws reflect centuries of traditional jurisprudence going back at least to the Danelaw in England.  The other important consideration is pragmatism:  What actually works?  Only then do we consider moral and ethical questions.  Why?  Because morals and ethics are so often a matter of dispute.  We live in a pluralistic society, with many divergent views on what is moral and ethical.  We have found peace only in a policy of live and let live.

Like Cal said, what any society views as 'working' is based on that society's morals.

[Robert F. Smith]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Like Cal said, what any society views as 'working' is based on that society's morals.

Perhaps you could give a couple of examples of that.  I know of no reason to give any credence to that notion.

[Rain]

Could we move that discussion to another thread please?

[bluebell]

52 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Perhaps you could give a couple of examples of that.  I know of no reason to give any credence to that notion.

I'll just put this link here (to answer your question), and if you want to continue the discussion then start a new thread and i'll be happy to participate.   It explains how the constitution, and the laws under it, are ultimately the result of our morality.  

Morality and law

 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'll just put this link here (to answer your question), and if you want to continue the discussion then start a new thread and i'll be happy to participate.   It explains how the constitution, and the laws under it, are ultimately the result of our morality.  

Morality and law

Rick Garlikov's long essay makes my case for me that Anglo-American law is largely an assemblage of traditional customs and rules.  He wants morality to play a larger part than it does.  In fact, that is the purpose of his essay:  To argue that morality needs to be injected into the law to a far greater extent than it is.

[Robert F. Smith]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

Stargazer, murder, rape, theft are wrong in our society because we say they are wrong.

Mankind has not always said that.

Many criminal cultures do not say so even now...

Rape is often excused during times of war

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/06/18/gruesome-killing-of-baltimore-teen-part-of-gang-initiation/

Gadiantons found murder quite useful if you believe the Book of Mormon as they saw murder as their culture's way to power

Many countries had rituals of murder:

"For the re-consecration of the Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan in 1487, the Aztecs reported that they killed about 80,400 prisoners over the course of four days."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice

-----

The question is why do we today in many societies see it as fundamentally wrong.  Are we evolving into a more kinder society or did we start finally start listening to God, though not all that well as there are still plenty of people out there who use the opportunity to kill others as a way to gain power, only they get others to do it for them and that forces others to try and stop them...often with the same methods.

Murder (the illegal taking of a human life), theft, and rape have been  major legal concepts contnuously for thousands of years.  Criminal gangs and syndicates actually depend upon the normal laws of society, so that they can more easily commit their crimes and get away with them.  As long as they are the only murderers and thieves, they are safe and content.

There are plenty of exceptions to the classification of murder and other laws:  Holy rituals of human sacrifice, the rapine & pillage of towns which refused to peacefully surrender (Julius Caesar used this in his conquest of Gaul), etc.  Indeed, rape is regularly used to humiliate the enemy generally.  The LDS Church does not consider wartime killing to be murder, regardless of which side one is on.

In some times and places, women and children are off limits.  Thus, the Arabs were shocked by the reckless killing of their wives and children by the Turks during WW I.  Even though fellow Muslims, the Turks didn't follow the rules, and that infuriated the Arabs -- who proceeded to massacre the Ottoman Turks.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Rick Garlikov's long essay makes my case for me that Anglo-American law is largely an assemblage of traditional customs and rules.  He wants morality to play a larger part than it does.  In fact, that is the purpose of his essay:  To argue that morality needs to be injected into the law to a far greater extent than it is.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

We’ll have to agree to disagree. 

And you and I will have to agree to agree. 

Edited October 3, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And you and I will have to agree to agree. 

Don't forget me!

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Don't forget me!

You too!!!

[Rain]

I realize others have the opportunity to see the talks now,  but I just wanted to add notes of the talks I missed, though I will copy and paste for some of it.

Sister Eubank

Quoted President Kimball: Finally, my dear sisters, may I suggest to you something that has not been said before or at least in quite this way. Much of the major growth that is coming to the Church in the last days will come because many of the good women of the world … will be drawn to the Church in large numbers. This will happen to the degree that the women of the Church reflect righteousness and articulateness in their lives and to the degree that the women of the Church are seen as distinct and different—in happy ways—from the women of the world.
            “Among the real heroines in the world who will come into the Church are women who are more concerned with being righteous than with being selfish. These real heroines have true humility, which places a higher value on integrity than on visibility. …"

Well, how do we play our part? What should we do? President Kimball refers to five things:

1. The first is to be righteous. Being righteous doesn’t mean being perfect or never making mistakes. It means developing an inner connection with God, repenting of our sins and mistakes, and freely helping others.

2. The second is to be articulate...Each of us needs to be better at articulating the reasons for our faith. How do you feel about Jesus Christ? Why do you stay in the Church? Why do you believe the Book of Mormon is scripture? Where do you get your peace?...Use your voice and your power to articulate what you know and feel...Tell them why you believe, what it feels like, if you ever doubted, how you got through it, and what Jesus Christ means to you.

3. The third is to be different....When we keep our covenants, it may make us different from others in our culture and society, but it gives us access to inspiration so we can think of different solutions, different approaches, different applications. We aren’t always going to fit in with the world, but being different in positive ways can be a lifeline to others who are struggling.

4. The fourth is to be distinct....The restored gospel is recognizably well defined. But we have to be distinct about how we follow it.... we need to practice living the gospel before the emergency so that, unafraid, we will be strong enough to help when others are being swept away by the current.

5. And finally, the fifth is to do one through four in happy ways. Being happy doesn’t mean to slap a plastic smile on your face no matter what is going on. But it does mean keeping the laws of God and building and lifting others. When we build, when we lift the burden of others, it blesses our lives in ways our trials cannot take away...There is an energy that comes from happiness and optimism that doesn’t just bless us...

The prophets are calling on us, my sisters. Will you be righteous? Will you articulate your faith? Can you bear being distinct and different? Will your happiness in spite of your trials draw others who are good and noble and who need your friendship? Will you turn on your light? 

Sister Marriott

We are here on this earth to learn and grow, and the most important learning and growing will come from our covenant connection to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. From our faithful relationship with Them come godly knowledge, love, power, and capacity to serve.

We can lose our trusting connection to God if trials drive us to distraction instead of sending us to our knees...

Independently forcing ourselves to have humility and trying to make ourselves love others is insincere and hollow, and it simply doesn’t work. Our sins and pride create a breach—or a gap—between us and the font of all love, our Heavenly Father. Only the Savior’s Atonement can cleanse us of our sins and close that gap or breach...

That night as I knelt to pray, I hurried to explain to Heavenly Father how difficult this relative was! I talked on and on. Perhaps I paused in my complaining and the Holy Ghost had a chance to get my attention, because, to my surprise, I next heard myself say, “You probably want me to love her.” Love her? I prayed on, saying something like, “How can I love her? I don’t think I even like her. My heart is hard; my feelings are hurt. I can’t do it.”
            Then, surely with help from the Spirit, I had a new thought as I said, “But You love her, Heavenly Father. Would You give me a portion of Your love for her—so I can love her too?” My hard feelings softened, my heart started to change, and I began to see this person differently. I began to sense her real value that Heavenly Father saw...

Sister Jones

Quoting Mariama, "When I found the gospel, I found myself.”

She discovered her worth through divine principles. Her value as a daughter of God was revealed to her through the Holy Ghost.

Quoting Renu, "God had actually created me and had created my soul and my life with value and purpose."

...Truly knowing that you are a daughter of God will affect every aspect of your life and guide you in the service you render each day....

Let me point out the need to differentiate between two critical words: worth and worthiness. They are not the same. Spiritual worth means to value ourselves the way Heavenly Father values us, not as the world values us. Our worth was determined before we ever came to this earth. “God’s love is infinite and it will endure forever.”
            On the other hand, worthiness is achieved through obedience. If we sin, we are less worthy, but we are never worth less! We continue to repent and strive to be like Jesus with our worth intact....

If the love we feel for the Savior and what He did for us is greater than the energy we give to weaknesses, self-doubts, or bad habits, then He will help us overcome the things which cause suffering in our lives. He saves us from ourselves...

Sisters, let’s not be confused about who we are! While it is often easier to be spiritually passive than it is to put forth the spiritual effort to remember and embrace our divine identity, we cannot afford that indulgence in these latter days. May we, as sisters, “be faithful in Christ; … may Christ lift [us] up, and may his sufferings and death, … and his mercy and long-suffering, and the hope of his glory and of eternal life, rest in [our minds] forever.” As the Savior lifts us to higher ground, we can see more clearly not only who we are but also that we are closer to Him than we ever imagined.

[Rain]

President Uchtdorf in the women's session.

Story of the sad, mad and glad sisters.

Of course, life is never so simple, and people are never so one-dimensional as the three sisters in this story. But even extreme examples like these can teach us something about ourselves.

The first sister saw herself as a victim—as someone who was acted upon. It seemed like one thing after another kept happening to her that made her miserable. With this approach to life, she was giving others control over how she felt and behaved. When we do this, we are driven about by every wind of opinion—and in this day of ever-present social media, those winds blow at hurricane intensity...

You have the spiritual DNA of God. You have unique gifts that originated in your spiritual creation and that were developed during the vast span of your premortal life...You are His precious child. He loves you...

My dear sisters, please let these divine truths sink deeply into your hearts. And you will find that there are many reasons not to be sad, for you have an eternal destiny to fulfill.

The beloved Savior of the world gave His life so that you could choose to make that destiny a reality....

The second sister was angry at the world. Like her sad sister, she felt that the problems in her life were all caused by someone else. She blamed her family, her friends, her boss and coworkers, the police, the neighbors, Church leaders, current fashion trends, even the intensity of solar flares, and plain bad luck....

They discovered that “each side felt their own group [was] motivated by love more than hate, but when asked why their rival group [was] involved in the conflict, [they] pointed to hate as [the other] group’s motivating factor.”

In other words, each group thought of themselves as the “good guys”—fair, kind, and truthful. By contrast, they saw their rivals as the “bad guys”...

When someone opposes or disagrees with us, it’s tempting to assume that there must be something wrong with them. And from there it’s a small step to attach the worst of motives to their words and actions....

So, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, we will love our enemies...
        
We will reach out to bless others and minister to them—even those who might “despitefully use [us] and persecute [us].”..

The third sister represents the authentic disciple of Jesus Christ. She did something that can be extremely hard to do: she trusted God even in the face of ridicule and hardship. Somehow she maintained her faith and hope, despite the scorn and cynicism around her. She lived joyfully not because her circumstances were joyful but because she was joyful...

If you find it difficult to hold fast to the iron rod and walk steadfastly toward salvation; if the laughter and ridicule of others who seem so confident cause you to waver; if you are troubled by unanswered questions or doctrines you don’t understand yet; if you feel saddened because of disappointments, I urge you to remember Lehi’s dream. Stay on the path! Never let go of the rod of iron—the word of God!...

There may be many things about life that are beyond your control. But in the end, you have the power to choose both your destination and many of your experiences along the way. It is not so much your abilities but your choices that make the difference in life.