Why does God intervene (or not intervene) the way that He does

[Thinking]

I have noticed that many people try to assign meaning or purpose to everything that happens.

Several years ago a young couple and their child were killed in a traffic accident. At the funeral one of the speakers claimed that "God wanted them on the other side." Some people seem to believe that God is controlling everything that happens. If that is true, do any of us really have agency? Just the other day I heard my own daughter say, "I guess that's the way it's supposed to be" after telling us about the difficult circumstances that one of her friends is in. I have noticed a simple formula that people use to interpret circumstances.

Bad thing happens to bad person: God is punishing that person.

Bad thing happens to good person: God is testing that person.

Good thing happens to good person: God is blessing that person.

Good thing happens to bad person: God is testing the faith of good person.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Thinking

[Meerkat]

I think it's all a test to help us develop faith in Christ.  When we paid our tithing in the beginning, we would usually see an immediate attached blessing.  As time went on, our faith grew, and we knew God kept His promises. When we needed help, we could approach Him in faith because we had done what He asked. As our faith gained solid footing, the attached blessing became less and less frequent.  Our faith was put to the test.  Did we believe it? Yes. Our next test was to learn patience, to suffer long with kindness.  And the blessings came, although less frequently. 

Then other opportunities came to exercise faith.  My wife was pregnant with our first child. We were in a deep recession.  No jobs.  I found a job in a distant city.  Gave notice to landlord in Bellingham.  Drove to Tacoma to find housing. Learned my job was no longer available, so no money to pay rent.  Had presence of mind to pray about what to do and how to tell my wife. I looked up an old friend from Junior High School I hadn't seen in years. He and his wife were managing some apartments overlooking Tacoma Narrows.  He had just been hired in Bremerton, leaving Tacoma in two weeks-- my exact time line.  Within three hours, we had a two bedroom apartment with paid utilities including phone.  I had a part time maintenance job to buy food, VA to pay tuition, and a bicycle thrown in to ride to school.  The Lord came through immediately because we needed it.

I believe we all need reminders from time to time to bolster our faith.  Losing keys, getting a flat tire on way to an appointment, there is always something the Lord allows or sends, help of some sort, to remind us we can always trust in Him.  That's why I believe God answers small prayers, according to our need for faith and encouragement.  He also wants to work with us as we learn to create-- a godly virtue. Out of small things.....

Ultimately, our confidence becomes so strong, we can say with Job, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him."  Finally, after all that nurturing, when we see the tree bearing fruit, we understand what He meant when He told us "27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." John 14:27  "7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." Philippians 4:7

That's why I believe God helps me find my keys.

[stemelbow]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I do not find it to be that difficult.

I do admit, having the luxury in life that the Nehor has been given would be nice.  

[rpn]

I read once that science suggests that when we stop to pray, our minds get open in a way that allows us to figure it out.   Maybe the "intervention" is simply access to higher power of thought that we already have within us.

[stemelbow]

8 hours ago, Darren10 said:

In this thread we are discussing God's intervention. It's a great topic but I think that it requires to know the mind and will of God and to the fullest extent possible, that will never be accomplished by humans. by definition, fifinte beings cannot comprehend an infinite being. That said, I think there are some things we can (and should) understand regarding God and good versu evil.

While this is no means a definite end all to knowing God's mind and will, I think the following scripture gives valuable insight as to why God may or may not intervene in mankind:

"8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day."

(Alma 14)

In this passage we see a real human reaction to a great evil: to stop it! But, in trying to do so, Alma was "constrained" by the Holy Spirit, in other words, God, not to forcefully stop the burning of women and children. In this case, it was to allow evil to occur in order to stand as witness of God being just in His wrath upon evil doers. It also reveals that the righteous are received up to God and "in glory".

I do not think this is all the reasons God allows evil to happen but we do know from scripture that evil must exist in order for righteous to exist. That creates choice and choice leads us to God's glory. Therefore, in order to be lead to God's glory, there must be a possibility to be lead to none of God's glory. The choice is ours.

"10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth."

(1 Nephi 14)

Our choice for righteousness through the "Lamb of God" will lead us to eternal glory. Outside the Lamb, there is eternal misery to one degree or the other. It's our choice which path to take.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.  What you are responding to is my response to Bluebell who used this passages:

Quote

And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

The "things" in D&C 59 seem to refer to actual objects on earth.  It seemed this was used to refer to every action, occurrence or event out there.  If I consider just the verse previous couple verses I think it helps:

Quote

Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart;

19 Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul.

20 And it pleaseth God that he hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion.

Its feels less about acknowledging God does stuff for us, and more about that God has provided the things of the earth, in some way or another.  I found the use of the passage odd, so i asked if that also means that God expects us to acknowledge His hand in all evil things that happen.  Beats everyone else, I guess, although someone did suggest that we must acknowledge, I guess, that God didn't do nothing to stop evil.  But then that really destroys the seeming purpose of the scripture.  I guess it was destroyed when used in the context it was used in the first place.

I bring this up because it feels like the story of Alma and Amulek, if used in the context of our questions in this thread, seems to be doing the same thing.  I maintain, in direct opposition to the Nehor, i realize, that it's not easy to tell if some prompting we get is from God or not.  Alma is certain in the story.  But, for me, life is difficult and not easy.  When I feel constrained in something I don't know if it's due to a mishmash of many feelings, ideas, and intents inside me, coming out in the form of a prompting or if it's God working inside me.  If I follow the constraining and watch whatever happen happen as a result, I think it's easy enough to explain, or rationalize within myself what the prompting came from God.  it certainly could be that I ignore such a prompting and don't constrain in some case.  Either way, whatever you do, you don't go back and replay it.  You watch it unfold, I guess, determining which choice is best, live with the consequences, perhaps repent if the unfolding turns out in a way that makes you feel bad.  Any of this feels reasonable and expected for a believer.  We either rationalize why we feel prompted to go down the wrong road "God wanted us to learn something" or you pick the right road, not realizing it until later and keep going, I guess.  It's possible that the constraining that came upon Alma was a wrong road move.  People died and whatever happened happened.  The story gets recorded later and after the fact sweet smelling God did it because...gets factored in.  

As it is, it could be the story could have been that Alma didn't go with some inhibited feeling inside him, attributing it to God, but decided to act, and somehow they saved the day.  Then later when it got recorded, assuming the story really happened and the scripture is recounting something authentic, it could have been recorded that Alma felt inspired by the devil to constrain but rejected that and went with what he felt obligated to do.  

The story is interesting in all of this, so thanks for adding it.  Whatever we feel, if we feel righteous and worthy enough, in a given situation is right.  When we approach something and we feel great conflict to the opposing options ahead of us and in our consideration and prayers we feel justified to attribute the decision to God, then we know we were inspired.  When we travel down the road and decide that option wasn't useful to us and we turn around and head back, then it's quite easy to say, at least as the stories have been given us, God just wanted me to learn for myself.  "That's why i felt inspired to do that wrong thing".  However we decide to report the story and our findings is up to us.  "God told me to do something wrong so I could see for myself"  Or "I got inspired to do something wrong.  Must have been the devil" or "Maybe that inspiration was less about telling me to do the right thing and more about making me decide" or "Either option was going to be good for my learning, so God just picked one and gave me inspiration which had to have benefited me in some way".  It doesn't seem to matter.  As it is all options are there for us.  We can choose to think God is in every part of our lives, crying as we report the magnificent events He gave us.  We can choose to think God is there, but is less concerned about all the little things we come to Him about.  We can choose to think He comes off as arbitrary, sending people down wrong roads at times while sending others down the right roads only to decide to send some of them back to head back down the other road for whatever reason, while we all think He's in charge in every minutia of every life in every way.  Or He's only doing this for the ones we consider righteous enough, i guess.  

But to some, it seems, this confusing mess is really easy--God inspires that person more than another, i guess.  Only some of us are Nephi and Alma, the rest of us are left riding a roller coaster hoping and wondering.  

[stemelbow]

33 minutes ago, rpn said:

I read once that science suggests that when we stop to pray, our minds get open in a way that allows us to figure it out.   Maybe the "intervention" is simply access to higher power of thought that we already have within us.

Sure.  That's why people don't pray as we call it, but meditate or contemplate.  I'd wager it brings similar effects.  

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I do admit, having the luxury in life that the Nehor has been given would be nice.  

I consider it a necessity.

[Meerkat]

15 hours ago, rongo said:

This physical manipulation of matter is fascinating to me. It is really hard for many active members in 2017 to swallow. I agree with Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball that this is sometimes angels actually physically moving items. They both related multiple times how they set off for England with a very small sum and made their way to New England, paying for travel and lodging all the way without receiving any donations. They ended up with $83.50. They attributed it to angels putting it in their pockets, although they contemplated whether matter had been reconstituted as money. 

Back in 1973, I built a 1967 VW van into a camper to take my bride on a month long honeymoon to Mexico.  While working on it, my 14 year old brother, very excited, had learned to hotwire a car in metal shop and wanted to try it out on the van.  He showed me what he was doing, and amazingly, it worked.  I had never seen anything like it.

On the way down Highway 1 in Northern California, we saw some kayakers paddling out of an inlet.  We pulled over and ran through the tall grass to get a better look.  

When we got back to the van, I couldn't find my keys.  We slowly retraced our steps through the tall grass again and again.  No keys.  I thought maybe I had left them in the van.  We turned it upside down, unpacked everything.  No keys.

I remembered how my brother had hotwired the van.  I found a wire and ran it from the starter motor to the coil.  We had parked on a rise.  We got in, and started coasting down.  I popped the clutch and, voila', it started.

We were new Christians at the time.  The next two days, every time we stopped I had to park on a rise.  It was hard.  Once, we didn't have a rise and both of us had to push it fast enough so I could get in and pop the clutch.  We stopped for lunch in a small town.  Realizing how hard it would be to continue this way, I prayed.

After lunch, getting back to the van, opening the rear door I saw, sitting square in the middle of the back seat/fold out bed (as if it were in a framed picture,) the keys.  It was a miracle to us.

The rest of the story is we drove down to Mexico City, saw the ruins of the pyramid of the sun and the pyramid of the moon.  On our way back to Bellingham passed through Salt Lake City.  Walking onto Temple Square, I felt the same Spirit that had earlier testified of Christ to me.  

At the visitor's center, we learned about the Book of Mormon and Christ in America.  We visited Temple Square for two days.  Back in Bellingham, we read the Book of Mormon. Convinced by the Holy Ghost it was true, we were baptized.  That was 44 wonderful, hard, sad, happy years ago.  He has been faithful to us every step of the way.  We have experienced many miracles along the way and are currently enjoying a wonderfully happy life.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Meerkat

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I think it's all a test to help us develop faith in Christ.  When we paid our tithing in the beginning, we would usually see an immediate attached blessing.  As time went on, our faith grew, and we knew God kept His promises. When we needed help, we could approach Him in faith because we had done what He asked. As our faith gained solid footing, the attached blessing became less and less frequent.  Our faith was put to the test.  Did we believe it? Yes. Our next test was to learn patience, to suffer long with kindness.  And the blessings came, although less frequently. 

Then other opportunities came to exercise faith.  My wife was pregnant with our first child. We were in a deep recession.  No jobs.  I found a job in a distant city.  Gave notice to landlord in Bellingham.  Drove to Tacoma to find housing. Learned my job was no longer available, so no money to pay rent.  Had presence of mind to pray about what to do and how to tell my wife. I looked up an old friend from Junior High School I hadn't seen in years. He and his wife were managing some apartments overlooking Tacoma Narrows.  He had just been hired in Bremerton, leaving Tacoma in two weeks-- my exact time line.  Within three hours, we had a two bedroom apartment with paid utilities including phone.  I had a part time maintenance job to buy food, VA to pay tuition, and a bicycle thrown in to ride to school.  The Lord came through immediately because we needed it.

I believe we all need reminders from time to time to bolster our faith.  Losing keys, getting a flat tire on way to an appointment, there is always something the Lord allows or sends, help of some sort, to remind us we can always trust in Him.  That's why I believe God answers small prayers, according to our need for faith and encouragement.  He also wants to work with us as we learn to create-- a godly virtue. Out of small things.....

Ultimately, our confidence becomes so strong, we can say with Job, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him."  Finally, after all that nurturing, when we see the tree bearing fruit, we understand what He meant when He told us "27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." John 14:27  "7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." Philippians 4:7

That's why I believe God helps me find my keys.

Wise words.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Thinking said:

I have noticed that many people try to assign meaning or purpose to everything that happens.

Several years ago a young couple and their child were killed in a traffic accident. At the funeral one of the speakers claimed that "God wanted them on the other side." Some people seem to believe that God is controlling everything that happens. If that is true, do any of us really have agency. Just the other day I heard my own daughter say, "I guess that's the way it's supposed to be" after telling us about the difficult circumstances that one of her friends is in. I have noticed a simple formula that people use to interpret circumstances.

Bad thing happens to bad person: God is punishing that person.

Bad thing happens to good person: God is testing that person.

Good thing happens to good person: God is blessing that person.

Good thing happens to bad person: God is testing the faith of good person.

There is a certain arrogance to that approach I dislike. God is not that transparent.

[HappyJackWagon]

21 hours ago, bluebell said:

In a different thread Stem mentioned that he believes that God does intervene on our behalf, but not to help people find their keys (or things of that nature) because that idea is silly.  He's not the only poster here who holds that view but his view of it was the most recent i've read so i'm using him as an example of that idea.

My question is, why would God intervene on some things but not on others (as long as the person isn't asking for something against God's will)?  What's the thinking behind that viewpoint?  I get the idea that God doesn't intervene, and I get the idea that He does (when it is according to His will) but I don't really understand the idea that God will intervene to help us, except when it's not in regards to something very important in the grand scheme of things.

I'd like to understand that better.

Do you believe God intervenes every time someone is in need or asks for help, so long as the request doesn't violate God's will?

Do you see that level of consistency in godly intervention? I don't.

If you see that kind of consistency, I have some questions for you because I simply can't see that as a sustainable position.

If you don't see consistency in divine intervention, then how do you explain it?

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Do you believe God intervenes every time someone is in need or asks for help, so long as the request doesn't violate God's will?

No, I don't.

Quote

Do you see that level of consistency in godly intervention? I don't.

I believe that there is consistency in how God intervenes, but I'm not knowledgeable to see it myself.  There's too much information that I don't have.

Quote

If you don't see consistency in divine intervention, then how do you explain it?

I don't think I understand the question.  Are you saying that if I don't understand how divine intervention works that that means it's unexplainable or doesn't exist?

[rongo]

Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

Do you believe God intervenes every time someone is in need or asks for help, so long as the request doesn't violate God's will?Do you see that level of consistency in godly intervention? I don't.

No, I don't. He doesn't intervene every time, that's for sure.

If you don't see consistency in divine intervention, then how do you explain it?

Intervening every time requested (even if righteously requested) would ruin the power of faith (and doubt, which drives the faith engine). 

When I was transferred to Halberstadt (former East Germany --- the only DDR city in the Hamburg mission --- still 25%+ unemployment and people living in abandoned buildings in the mid 1990s), *every* person we talked to immediately threw out "if there is a God, then why does XYZ happen?" as a conversation stopper. Most people were heavily influenced by Communistic atheism. I typed up a leaflet with a quote from "Faith Precedes the Miracle," pg. 98, the gist of which is: We would like our prayers to be instantly answered according to our egotistical wishes, but if we close the door on disappointment, suffering, pain, doubt and failure, we also close the door on success, joy, and faith. We would like to banish all failure, disappointment, doubt, and suffering from our life and assure ourselves an uninterrupted life of bliss and contentment, but if we really had only that with none of the negative things, it would stunt our development.

We had a lot more success asking people why there is suffering in the world, and and they talked at length about all of the causes for suffering in the world (mostly human choice based). Then, we gave them the quote, and asked them for their thoughts, which were mostly positive. This led to discussion about how children have to fall to learn to walk (everyone has been a parent, or can grasp that principle), and we shared 2 Nephi 2 about the value of opposition. This really closed the door from the outset on their conversation stopper, and led to good conversations. 

Applying that to this discussion, imagine how catastrophic it would be if God intervened every time and spared us any pain, suffering, disappointment, doubt, etc. That was Satan's plan, and it would completely thwart our very purpose for being here. As difficult and thorny as it is when we consider horrible human suffering, atrocities, and evil, completely shielding us from it --- or instantly answering all of our prayers --- would be worse in the eternal scheme of things. 

[Kenngo1969]

I weighed in the last time Happy Jack Wagon brought up the topic.  By no means would I wish to be accused of oversimplifying a topic which can be baffling, befuddling, bewitching, bothering, and bewildering to us mere mortals (can you think of any other synonyms for any of those words that begin with "b"? ) If God, with His more expansive, Eternal perspective, sees and understands things that I don't, then I simply have to trust that He is able to make "silk purses" out of mortality's many and varied "sow's ears" through means which I, with my limited perspective, cannot understand and would  not think possible: "All things" ... not just the "good" stuff, and not just the stuff we understand, but all things ... "work together for the good of them that love God" (Romans 8:28).

I've told my story here many, many times.  I don't know why I underwent two major attempts at hip reconstruction, each of which failed miserably, and each of which was followed by an equally-miserable post-operative regimen of having my lower body completely immobilized in plaster for weeks at a time, which, in turn, was followed by months of painful, grueling, ultimately-fruitless physical therapy.  I'm simply grateful that we were able to find a surgeon who was willing to try a different reconstructive procedure and post-operative regimen, who gave me a chance (not a guarantee, but a chance) of recuperating in a wheelchair rather than being casted.

Perhaps God simply hated the 11- and 12-year-old me or was indifferent to that young boy's petitions before finally coming to tolerate the 14- and 15-year-old me and my clumsy, inarticulate, perhaps ill-considered petitions. Perhaps, arbitrary despot that He is, He simply said finally, "Oh, what the heck!  I'll throw him a bone!" (No pun intended, since we are talking about orthopedics here .)  I don't think that's it.  I don't know why other aspects of my life haven't gone according to plan.  I think part of the lesson I'm supposed to learn in all of this is that God isn't Santa Claus: He doesn't give us "presents" when we're "good" and "lumps of coal" when we're "bad."  I think He wants us to learn to trust Him independent of the circumstance in which we find ourselves.  

Even someone who gets a "raw deal" here in mortality but, in all of his "raw deal" problems, nevertheless, learns to trust God regardless will be better off than someone who sails relatively smoothly through mortality and uses that smooth sailing as an excuse to proclaim, when he stands before God, "I am all that and a bag of chips, Baby!"  "God maketh His sun to shine both on the evil and on the good, and He sendeth rain both on the just and on the unjust" (Matthew 5:45).  "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him" (Job 13:15).  "I know not the meaning of all things; nevertheless, I know that [God] loveth His children" (1 Nephi 11:17).

My $0.02.  Actual value, as always, much less.