Why does God intervene (or not intervene) the way that He does

[rongo]

57 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I am aware

so god's hand is in all terrible acts too?  

I think that both God and the devil are blamed for things that aren't their fault. I don't believe, personally, that every natural disaster or personal tragedy is God's will. I also don't believe that every bad thought is the devil whispering to us. I think a lot of these things happen because we live in a fallen, telestial world. Many of our bad thoughts are *our* bad thoughts, and not devil or minion necessary.

The thorniest problem would be, for example, that bishop who had been molesting youth in the bishop's office for years before getting caught. Questions like, why didn't God inspire the SP to recommend someone else? why did the FP approve the ordination? why didn't the Holy Ghost tell the SP and others that this was going on? are natural, and they don't have any easy answers. 

Personally, I know that God *does* sometimes intervene dramatically and drastically like this, but he doesn't always, and it is never on our demand. That is very frustrating to us in mortality.

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

Some of my experiences entail a lost item turning up where we have already thoroughly searched before. It simply wasn't there. And then it was. This is the sort of thing where people look at each other in amazement, because they all know that they each had looked in that exact spot, and it wasn't there. And then it was.

Well having overlooked many things in my life I ain't the least bit surprised nor necessarily convinced. 

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

I think that both God and the devil are blamed for things that aren't their fault. I don't believe, personally, that every natural disaster or personal tragedy is God's will. I also don't believe that every bad thought is the devil whispering to us. I think a lot of these things happen because we live in a fallen, telestial world. Many of our bad thoughts are *our* bad thoughts, and not devil or minion necessary.

The thorniest problem would be, for example, that bishop who had been molesting youth in the bishop's office for years before getting caught. Questions like, why didn't God inspire the SP to recommend someone else? why did the FP approve the ordination? why didn't the Holy Ghost tell the SP and others that this was going on? are natural, and they don't have any easy answers. 

Personally, I know that God *does* sometimes intervene dramatically and drastically like this, but he doesn't always, and it is never on our demand. That is very frustrating to us in mortality.

I'm similar.  The "I know" part is where you and I depart, I guess.

[stemelbow]

55 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think that's a good question.  I don't know the answer.

None of us do.  It'd be a sad day though if we all get eternally condemned because we refused to acknowledge His hand in all horrific events and actions, I guess. 

[stemelbow]

28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

But one cohort of "we" does know. What is wrong with someone knowing that He does intervene in everything eventually to render the most just, merciful and loving outcome for everyone? Are you content not knowing?

Who knows?  You?  How so?  If you say you know then great.  But just because you say you know doesn't mean GOd really did or does intervene. 

[hope_for_things]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

In a different thread Stem mentioned that he believes that God does intervene on our behalf, but not to help people find their keys (or things of that nature) because that idea is silly.  He's not the only poster here who holds that view but his view of it was the most recent i've read so i'm using him as an example of that idea.

My question is, why would God intervene on some things but not on others (as long as the person isn't asking for something against God's will)?  What's the thinking behind that viewpoint?  I get the idea that God doesn't intervene, and I get the idea that He does (when it is according to His will) but I don't really understand the idea that God will intervene to help us, except when it's not in regards to something very important in the grand scheme of things.

I'd like to understand that better.

I too would like to understand this better, because my more recent years I'm under the impression that God never intervenes, and the idea that God does intervene sometimes is problematic when you start to look at the problem of evil.  It makes God an entity that essentially is condoning the worst atrocities that happen in the world, all kinds of horrible things that if God had the power to intervene and chooses not to intervene, God becomes a horrible sadistic God.  I have a problem with the idea that God intervenes because of the ramifications of what that says about the kind deity God is.

For me personally, its easier to believe in a God that can't intervene, than a God that selectively intervenes.  

[rongo]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Well having overlooked many things in my life I ain't the least bit surprised nor necessarily convinced. 

Only those in the situation can know for themselves the likelihood of overlooking (which does happen). 

Once, I drove for three hours to Hamburg with the stake mission leader for a meeting with the stake presidency (my companion was left with other elders). After the meeting, Brother Fischer couldn't find his keys. We had to find them, because we were three hours away and it was already late. There weren't any steps to retrace, really --- the car to the entrance; entrance to the SP's office; and office to the men's room (he had used the restroom). The first place we all looked was the restroom --- every inch of it. We retraced steps over and over. We were the only ones there (the SP'cy had gone home). We were panicked and said a prayer and tried again. We immediately found them right away on one of the toilet tanks. The thing was that we had both searched the toilet tank lids, floor, counters, etc. several times before, and there was nothing there. I can still vividly see in my mind the gleaming stark white of the porcelain and the whiteness of the floor in the Wartenau building. A bunch of keys with a key ring is not something we would have missed contrasted with the porcelain --- especially when we looking for something, anything. This particular one can't be explained away by simply "you didn't look good enough and overlooked it."

This physical manipulation of matter is fascinating to me. It is really hard for many active members in 2017 to swallow. I agree with Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball that this is sometimes angels actually physically moving items. They both related multiple times how they set off for England with a very small sum and made their way to New England, paying for travel and lodging all the way without receiving any donations. They ended up with $83.50. They attributed it to angels putting it in their pockets, although they contemplated whether matter had been reconstituted as money. 

[CA Steve]

I am a cynic.  I believe God intervenes at exactly the same proportions that the laws of probability dictate the outcome of any action or event. 

[Duncan]

I'm still waiting for the necktie of my dreams from Ebay!!!! it's two days late. Is this God's way of punishing me for not being a better person or what? Why hasn't it arrived yet? ugh, the worst. I don't know why God jumps in when he does and doesn't. I don't know why some folks seem to have a pretty great life and have all the toys in life yet others live terribly hard  lives and end up committing suicide. We have all these statements that God loves us, he's in the details of our lives and notices a death of a sparrow but do non Mormon know that? You see others lives and wonder where is God in that person life? I could go on allnight, it's not like I want to be trying out my new necktie playing bowling tonite

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

tOnly those in the situation can know for themselves the likelihood of overlooking (which does happen). 

Once, I drove for three hours to Hamburg with the stake mission leader for a meeting with the stake presidency (my companion was left with other elders). After the meeting, Brother Fischer couldn't find his keys. We had to find them, because we were three hours away and it was already late. There weren't any steps to retrace, really --- the car to the entrance; entrance to the SP's office; and office to the men's room (he had used the restroom). The first place we all looked was the restroom --- every inch of it. We retraced steps over and over. We were the only ones there (the SP'cy had gone home). We were panicked and said a prayer and tried again. We immediately found them right away on one of the toilet tanks. The thing was that we had both searched the toilet tank lids, floor, counters, etc. several times before, and there was nothing there. I can still vividly see in my mind the gleaming stark white of the porcelain and the whiteness of the floor in the Wartenau building. A bunch of keys with a key ring is not something we would have missed contrasted with the porcelain --- especially when we looking for something, anything. This particular one can't be explained away by simply "you didn't look good enough and overlooked it."

This physical manipulation of matter is fascinating to me. It is really hard for many active members in 2017 to swallow. I agree with Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball that this is sometimes angels actually physically moving items. They both related multiple times how they set off for England with a very small sum and made their way to New England, paying for travel and lodging all the way without receiving any donations. They ended up with $83.50. They attributed it to angels putting it in their pockets, although they contemplated whether matter had been reconstituted as money. 

What the...??? he put his keys on the toilet tank?  That's a weird dude.  I do believe that's the last place I'd rest my keys.   It'd make ya wonder, after he put the keys on the toilet tank, did he flush them down?  God seeing that you guys were particularly righteous decided to make the keys come out of the sewer and onto the toilet tank again?

Hmmm...I wonder if God also made a special effort to sanitize them before setting them delicately on the tank. 

Or Did God just reproduce new keys out of really fine matter, so you guys didn't have to get sick by grabbing contaminated keys? 

I know I'm the swine, but this is odd stuff to me.

[rongo]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

What the...??? he put his keys on the toilet tank?  That's a weird dude.  I do believe that's the last place I'd rest my keys.   It'd make ya wonder, after he put the keys on the toilet tank, did he flush them down?  God seeing that you guys were particularly righteous decided to make the keys come out of the sewer and onto the toilet tank again?

Hmmm...I wonder if God also made a special effort to sanitize them before setting them delicately on the tank. 

Or Did God just reproduce new keys out of really fine matter, so you guys didn't have to get sick by grabbing contaminated keys? 

I know I'm the swine, but this is odd stuff to me.

No --- that's just it. He didn't put his keys on the toilet tank. That's where they were when we found them --- and we had literally searched everywhere possible (including the toilet tank lids, and other places). 

I think that an angel put his actual keys there. I don't think that they were beamed up there, or reconstituted out of matter to form a new set. 

This is odd and fascinating stuff to me, too. I love thinking about the mechanics of changing water into wine, dividing the loaves and the fishes, etc. 

You should hear my kids tell some of my garment stories. I cut my thigh down to the bone with a sharp edge of steel beam. I felt it cut deep, and panicked to push the pressure points before I bled to death. My jeans were slashed, but not my garments, and I didn't have a mark on me. I've wondered how I could feel the pain of the deep cut without my skin or the garments being cut. Were they cut, but they healed/fixed up really fast? It's interesting to think about.

Edited August 30, 2017 by rongo

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

No --- that's just it. He didn't put his keys on the toilet tank. That's where they were when we found them --- and we had literally searched everywhere possible (including the toilet tank lids, and other places). 

Well if he didn't, then where'd he put them?  Did he tell you where he put them?  Maybe he put them there without realizing where he put them, and the person searching just plain overlooked them, and yet thought he has searched the toilet tank? 

1 minute ago, rongo said:

I think that an angel put his actual keys there. I don't think that they were beamed up there, or reconstituted out of matter to form a new set. 

This is odd and fascinating stuff to me, too. I love thinking about the mechanics of changing water into wine, dividing the loaves and the fishes, etc. 

You should hear my kids tell some of my garment stories. I cut my thigh down to the bone with a sharp edge of steel beam. I felt it cut deep, and panicked to push the pressure points before I bled to death. My jeans were slashed, but not my garments, and I didn't have a mark on me. I've wondered how I could feel the pain of the deep cut without my skin or the garments being cut. Were they cut, but they healed/fixed up really fast? It's interesting to think about.

SOunds fun. 

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

No --- that's just it. He didn't put his keys on the toilet tank. That's where they were when we found them --- and we had literally searched everywhere possible (including the toilet tank lids, and other places). 

I think that any angel put his actual keys there. I don't think that they were beamed up there, or reconstituted out of matter to form a new set. 

This is odd and fascinating stuff to me, too. I love thinking about the mechanics of changing water into wine, dividing the loaves and the fishes, etc. 

You should hear my kids tell some of my garment stories. I cut my thigh down to the bone with a sharp edge of steel beam. I felt it cut deep, and panicked to push the pressure points before I bled to death. My jeans were slashed, but not my garments, and I didn't have a mark on me. I've wondered how I could feel the pain of the deep cut without my skin or the garments being cut. Were they cut, but they healed/fixed up really fast? It's interesting to think about.

When I was a missionary we were hauling it down a very busy street and it had rained ALL day and we were soaked to the bone. Anyways some guy opens his car door and I crashed into it (his door was permanently stuck open after I hit it) and anyways I fell to the pavement, cars whizzing past my head but I survived the crash. When we got home, I had this scar on my collar bone area and that was it, it went away fairly quickly-garments were fine though! 

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well if he didn't, then where'd he put them?  Did he tell you where he put them?  Maybe he put them there without realizing where he put them, and the person searching just plain overlooked them, and yet thought he has searched the toilet tank? 

He had no idea. As far as he knew, he didn't put them anywhere; they were in his pocket. I'm with you, though --- I don't think he or anyone else would put their keys on the toilet tank. We were out of options and looked in all kinds of unlikely places, but both of us had looked on the toilet tanks and everywhere else. Since they definitely weren't in the restroom at all, anywhere, we were afraid that they were outside or on the grounds --- a considerably more difficult search. Finding them contrasted against the white porcelain in a very unlikely place was jarring --- especially since we had already looked there before. Multiple times.  

Edited August 30, 2017 by rongo

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

He had no idea. As far as he knew, he didn't put them anywhere; they were in his pocket. I'm with you, though --- I don't think he or anyone else would put their keys on the toilet tank. We were out of options and looked in all kinds of unlikely places, but both of us had looked on the toilet tanks and everywhere else. Since they definitely weren't in the restroom at all, anywhere, we were afraid that they were outside or on the grounds --- a considerably more difficult search. Finding them contrasted against the white porcelain in a very unlikely place was jarring --- especially since we had already looked there before. Multiple times.  

Gatcha. Thanks for your patience. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Who knows?  You?  How so?  If you say you know then great.  But just because you say you know doesn't mean GOd really did or does intervene. 

Yes, I do know, by personal experience. Why do you ask? Why do you think my answer is great?

Do you know that God atoned for everyone and everything?

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Well determining what God said and whether He said something is a squirrely game as well. 

Many years ago as a single fella, I had dated a lovely lady for some time.  She was obviously wanting to keep it going and it became a time for me to seriously consider marriage.  So I prayed...and prayed.  I said, "should I marry her or not?"  I heard the word no.  I took that as from God, broke up with her and the rest is history, as they say.  Anyway, it could have easily gone the other way, I realize.  Maybe God told me no, or maybe it was the devil sticking his nose in our business to break up love and all that.  Maybe it was just my own self realizing deep down I really didn't want to take it there at that time.  I'll never know. 

I"d suggest in any case wherein one says God tells them.  We're still left to determine it God really did tell us, if we just thought He did in a confirmation bias thing, or if some other influence popped in.  It's an iffy faith based, guess worky world we live in. 

I do not find it to be that difficult.

[hagoth7]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

...but I don't really understand the idea that God will intervene to help us, except when it's not in regards to something very important in the grand scheme of things.

I'd like to understand that better.

About a year ago, I heard from the pulpit of another church for the first time that God loves us enough to want to be involved in the smallest details of our lives. And an example was provided of how God sometimes does that.

Was very, very encouraging to hear it there too.

[Darren10]

8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Tell that to my kid who has been praying to find his lost fidget spinner. 

Oh my! What is he doing to deal with his anxiety in the meantime?

Edited August 31, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I am aware

so god's hand is in all terrible acts too?  

In this thread we are discussing God's intervention. It's a great topic but I think that it requires to know the mind and will of God and to the fullest extent possible, that will never be accomplished by humans. by definition, fifinte beings cannot comprehend an infinite being. That said, I think there are some things we can (and should) understand regarding God and good versu evil.

While this is no means a definite end all to knowing God's mind and will, I think the following scripture gives valuable insight as to why God may or may not intervene in mankind:

"8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day."

(Alma 14)

In this passage we see a real human reaction to a great evil: to stop it! But, in trying to do so, Alma was "constrained" by the Holy Spirit, in other words, God, not to forcefully stop the burning of women and children. In this case, it was to allow evil to occur in order to stand as witness of God being just in His wrath upon evil doers. It also reveals that the righteous are received up to God and "in glory".

I do not think this is all the reasons God allows evil to happen but we do know from scripture that evil must exist in order for righteous to exist. That creates choice and choice leads us to God's glory. Therefore, in order to be lead to God's glory, there must be a possibility to be lead to none of God's glory. The choice is ours.

"10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth."

(1 Nephi 14)

Our choice for righteousness through the "Lamb of God" will lead us to eternal glory. Outside the Lamb, there is eternal misery to one degree or the other. It's our choice which path to take.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

What the...??? he put his keys on the toilet tank?  That's a weird dude.  I do believe that's the last place I'd rest my keys.   It'd make ya wonder, after he put the keys on the toilet tank, did he flush them down?  God seeing that you guys were particularly righteous decided to make the keys come out of the sewer and onto the toilet tank again?

Hmmm...I wonder if God also made a special effort to sanitize them before setting them delicately on the tank. 

Or Did God just reproduce new keys out of really fine matter, so you guys didn't have to get sick by grabbing contaminated keys? 

I know I'm the swine, but this is odd stuff to me.

Here I think you are trying to understand far too much of God that it leads to skepticism more than anything else. As a mortal you are a finite being. As a finite being you will never be able to fully understand an eternal and infinite being. Even Jesus expressed limitations in mortality:

Of his own second coming Jesus said, "36 ¶ But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Mathew 24)

I'm sure now Jesus has a pretty good idea of when He will come again.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

5 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I am a cynic.  I believe God intervenes at exactly the same proportions that the laws of probability dictate the outcome of any action or event. 

I think we can use proportions to help us determine God's interventions. But I also view God as above all things, even laws. I believe he follows laws, especially his own laws but with a full and complete understanding of what those laws are whereas we do not have any such full knowledge, not even close. That God follows laws, I think, teaches us the value of following laws.

[Darren10]

As for finding keys, I've prayed to find them and prayer calms my mind and helps me think clearly. I have a bad habit of plopping things down only to not be able to find them later when I need them. Keys included. When this happens I've taught myself to rethink where I may have put them. This has helped me a lot (as well as keeping specific things in specific places) but there have been several times that in my stubbornness, I have refused to pray to find my keys, wallet, glasses, etc. Justifying that if I can just rethink and save time by not praying I could find them that much quicker. Well, it turns out many times, not all but many...a very many number of times, I humbled myself, stopped to say a prayer including asking forgiveness for my arrogance, and ask for help. Many of these times I end up finding my valuable and needed item quickly after the prayer and often in places I had already looked, sometimes several times.

For whatever reason, I think God is teaching me the reality of the Book of Mormon where the earth was cursed and the Jaredites, in their great wickedness, would place their weapons down and not find them again. It also teaches me that if God wanted to hide a set of golden plates from the world, he could, even in plain sight.

[Darren10]

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

In a different thread Stem mentioned that he believes that God does intervene on our behalf, but not to help people find their keys (or things of that nature) because that idea is silly.  He's not the only poster here who holds that view but his view of it was the most recent i've read so i'm using him as an example of that idea.

My question is, why would God intervene on some things but not on others (as long as the person isn't asking for something against God's will)?  What's the thinking behind that viewpoint?  I get the idea that God doesn't intervene, and I get the idea that He does (when it is according to His will) but I don't really understand the idea that God will intervene to help us, except when it's not in regards to something very important in the grand scheme of things.

I'd like to understand that better.

The best thing I've come up with is that God answers us in many ways, even to find keys, but according to a much greater understanding than we know, or will ever know in this life. For whatever reason or reasons, we *must* develop faith and use faith to guide us in life. It is a trait which ultimately leads us to God. If God allows any evil to happen, there's a reason for it. It may be to teach us how to better prepare. It may be to receive good people in His rest when it is "their time". But I think a big reason, and perhaps the most common one, is to allow us to learn for ourselves "good from evil". In Genesis, I find it interesting that Adam and Eve were both immortal and sinless. Yet the first time "man', meaning both Adam and Eve, and extending to tall their progeny, which is all of us, was said to be like the LORD God was after they had partaken of the fruit of the Tree of knowledge. "Knowing good from evil" was an essential step towards God and godhood. Of course, in order to learn "from the evil" evil must exist. We must experience it one way or the other. we already did in the pre-mortal life and I think you got an A+ in that; but we must also do it in mortality under a veil of our knowledge of our pre-mortal life.

NOTE: "Knowing good from evil" I interpret as learning from doing good and from that we know what evil is. we are not to learn evil by doing it though I absolutely think that through the Holy Spirit we can learn evil is bad from doing evil but that is because He withdraws from us via our choice to do evil. Through repentance via the Atonement we come back in line with the Father (and must do so repeatedly, me perhaps more than others) but God desires us not to sin and through doing good we learn what evil is. Probably from it having a lack of good.

"9 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.

(snip)

11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

12 And it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me.

13 And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee?

14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?"

(Moses 1)

Same principle with Joseph Smith and the First Vision.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

God can intervene in small and large ways.  He has unlimited resources. 

I've concluded that God's internet is much better than anything we got on earth.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Darren10